Thread: Get this Deckel FP3A out of my shop!

Originally Posted by S_W_Bausch

It seems the short answer regarding this machine is "Deckel should be ashamed of ever badging it".

Were any designers harmed after the production of it?

That's a short sighted perspective...in 1981 it actually made some sense. 31 years later, it makes no sense...esp considering the 31 year old electronics and all the alternative machines out there for under $10K.

I can understand the frustration of the multi motored spindle, how the hell does the power of a single motor on the back get to each axis of the table in the front. Mystifying!! hehehe peace

Pete

Originally Posted by Milacron

Re your table question, Deckel made universal tables just for the L/L2 machines but if the mount slots are the same center to center distance as your T slots maybe this one meant for the standard Deckels would work. The standard universal table will tilt 45 degrees forward and 15 degrees back. So you couldn't tilt it forward at all as you'd be maxed out just to get the top level and hard to say at what point the top would run into an obstruction as you tilted back...but might work otherwise. Also, for forward/back tilt you wouldn't be able to make use of the cool dial indicator for returning it back to "zero" since your zero would be actually "45"'

Don't think so...the 45 tilt is going the wrong way to fit the sloped vertical table on the FP2LB......
Cheers Ross

Originally Posted by Pete from TN

how the hell does the power of a single motor on the back get to each axis of the table in the front. Mystifying!! hehehe peace

I can't remember now. The third photo at below link is not the same model but it may give some hint of how it was done. I sometimes think Rube Goldberg must have worked at Deckel.

FP4A / FP4MA - Deckel NC Milling Machine Web Site

Originally Posted by AlfaGTA

Don't think so...the 45 tilt is going the wrong way to fit the sloped vertical table on the FP2LB......

Are you sure ? I thought the standard universal table tiled 45 degrees "forward" in which case it seems like it would work. It's just that you then couldn't tilt it any more forward, but could tilt it 60 degrees back in theory...but it reality it would run into the X slide long before you got to 60.

If you are looking at a photo of the standard L type universal table I can understand why you think what you think.

Speaking of which, admitedly it would be infinitely better to buy the proper "L" universal table of course. Years ago I saw a pair of them (late models, pristine) sell dirt cheap since no one could use them except "L" Deckel owners.

Rube Goldberg it is..... SO what it is like a damn Moog Hydra point with full hydraulic movement then? Does it even have ballscrews? If it had screws I am quite sure it could still be retro'd but you would basically have to gut the sucker and start over. Might be a GOOD thing in the end. Any idea what the travels are? Peace

Pete

Seriously, if you're going to just take it to the scrap yard, I'm a college student going for electrical engineering, and working full time as an industrial maintenance mechanic, I'll take it off your hands and try to put it to good use...

Sounds to me like the scrap value, plus the drive in a rented truck to CA, and back to WI. Take that money and buy lottery tickets, it woulld have a better chance of success.

Note, a guy who calls himself Deckel Doctor, has over 1000 posts on this site, thinks that this would be a bad choice for a Manual machine and a worse choice for a retrofit. Don who is a trader in CNC machines and Deckels in particiular says the same. I'd listen to these folks.

The biggest problem with all electronics, and OLD stuff especialy, is that there is little to no information available as to the programing on those boards is. Since there is such a small population of these machines in the world, there is little source of used good parts, and likely NO new parts.

IMO

I was just thinking a good reason to take a road trip to Cali because I already have a car trailer and truck strong enough to tow it (your typical Wisconsinite), but yeah, you're probably right, not worth the $$$ time and effort to reverse engineer it to repair whatever is wrong with it.

Originally Posted by sciencebook

Seriously, if you're going to just take it to the scrap yard, I'm a college student going for electrical engineering, and working full time as an industrial maintenance mechanic, I'll take it off your hands and try to put it to good use...

Give it to this guy if he'll come get it!







(easy enough to give away other people's stuff)

Yeah man give it to tha cheesehead!! hehe
hey I can be generous.... sorta. peace

Pete

Originally Posted by Milacron

Are you sure ? I thought the standard universal table tiled 45 degrees "forward" in which case it seems like it would work. It's just that you then couldn't tilt it any more forward, but could tilt it 60 degrees back in theory...but it reality it would run into the X slide long before you got to 60.

D'oh ! You are right Ross...the universal table tilts forward 15 degrees only. I was going by what the Deckel literature said rather than looking at the actual table. Interesting misprint in the literature I never noticed before.

Originally Posted by sciencebook

I was just thinking a good reason to take a road trip to Cali because I already have a car trailer and truck strong enough to tow it (your typical Wisconsinite), but yeah, you're probably right, not worth the $$$ time and effort to reverse engineer it to repair whatever is wrong with it.

Plus you have to keep in mind that at the scrap price you aren't going to get a table with it. There was a used FP3 standard angular table on eBay for months at around $1,500 that might fit it, but not sure if that is still available or not. And if you are aghast at $1,500 just for a standard Deckel mill table, that's actually pretty low price for one of those.

Originally Posted by Pete from TN

Rube Goldberg it is..... SO what it is like a damn Moog Hydra point with full hydraulic movement then? Does it even have ballscrews? If it had screws I am quite sure it could still be retro'd but you would basically have to gut the sucker and start over. Might be a GOOD thing in the end. Any idea what the travels are? Peace

Pete

You see handwheels don't you ? Then of course it has screws. As I recall, since the point to point functons are only one direction at a time, the screws are just regular screws...not ballscrews. I could look up the travels but it seems like a moot point so why bother.

Originally Posted by Milacron

IMHO, if you want to retrofit a Deckel type mill a much better candidate is the Maho MH600e2 as that one has VFD driven spindle and therefore escapes the complexities of that system and might even provide things like rigid tapping possiblities and would run quietier. In fact there is a guy in the Midwest who does just that...retrofits Maho's to a Fagor control..but only the e2 versions.

I think the 432 controls (from V700/3D and all later Philips controls) are pretty good, and a retrofit with mach or EMC would be a setback. A retrofit with a Fagor or Siemens can be a step foreward, but it would be to costly.

For the FP3A I would use a PLC (Unitronics is my favorite), easy to integrate the Heidenhain scales, free programming to cope with the gearshifting, oilfeed etc.And it can do the same as an Active-Deckel. But it is not an Active-machine and has therefor less value.
So if you have this PLC-knowledge it is more profitable to use this knowledge for well-payed costumer-orders instead of rebuilding an old Deckel.But it would be fun.

Originally Posted by Pete from TN

Does it even have ballscrews? If it had screws I am quite sure it could still be retro'd but you would basically have to gut the sucker and start over. Might be a GOOD thing in the end. Any idea what the travels are? Peace

Found the brochure, which also covers the FP4NC of that era with the CNC 3301 "continuous path" control (ironically, no CRT screen on that one). In the brochure it specifically mentions ballscrews for the FP4NC, but no mention of such for the FP3A....which indicates almost certainly FP3A had standard screws. FP3A XYZ travels were 20/12/16".

Snee- On FP3A photo that shows features, arrow points to extended panel below E stop button as having "main transmission with automatic control", 21 steps . Exact same description on FP4NC except the gear positions were toward rear of Y axis ram, as on the later machines that followed.

Of interest, the FP4NC actually had one inch less X axis travel ! (19") Also interesting the brochure is dated 1979...so there may be 1979 and 1980 versions of the FP3A out there...but every one I've ever seen was 1981. I presume by 1982 the FP3NC with Dialog 2 was introduced and the FP3A dropped... until the moniker resurfaced years later looking similar to the FP3NC except with "Contour" control.

Rohner

The price you are asking is 6K is really unreal for this machine even though the machine is very clean.

It is only point to point and currently not running!

Your info about the control is totally incorrect it is 2101 control according to serial number.

So now you are saying it is going to scrap, I would now ask scrap price for it.

At that price it is a machine some one should by.

The machine came from Northrop and was not abused.

THE MACHINE

IT has gundig 2101 point to point control one axis at a time movement period.

One program can be entered into memory.

It has ballscrews on all axis.

It has 1 DC motor shared for all 3 axis,it has 1 dc servo drive.

It has Hiedenhain scales on all 3 axis.

It has 23 speed transmission shifted by 3 DC motors for shifting forks.

It is both vertical and horizontal spindle machine in small foot print.

It has hydraulic tool clamping for both horizontal and vertical spindles.

Cat 40 tooling.

IT is far more rigid than any other machine, ie bridgeport type machines.

I would keep all original and put Hiednhain 124 control on it!

If the machine was on the east coast I would by it for scrap price he is now asking for it.

The 903 - 904 scales alone are worth scrap price!!

It would cost around 1200-2000 dollars to ship coast to coast my guess, with out calling my broker.

Regards
DD

Originally Posted by deckeldoctor

It has ballscrews on all axis.

The sales brochure would indicate otherwise and I'm 99 percent sure my two Deckel FP3A's had regular screws. Plus, if you think about it, why would a point to point machine with Heidenhain scales, need ballscrews in the first place? Chris, can you pull back the bellows on one side of the X axis or raise the sliding steel covers on the Z, and let's settle this ballscrew thing once and for all ?

I can remember reporting here on PM back in 2000 that one advantage of the FP3A point to point over the CNC contouring Deckels was, when using the machine manually, the lack of ballscrews and how, when in manual mode, the feel was exactly the same as a fully manual Deckel.

Don T

I have electrical and board prints,operators manual,accessory manual at my finger tips, but for some reason

mechanical prints are not in my office.

They must be in the shop, not worth me wasting any more time on this as I have no interest in the machine.

Just thought I would give basic info for the others.

Regards
DD

Originally Posted by deckeldoctor

They must be in the shop, not worth me wasting any more time on this as I have no interest in the machine.

Same here, but it is kinda fun to chat about those antiques