Thread: article: It's Not the Wages Stupid

At least German cars don't look like something out of a cartoon.

WTF

Originally Posted by morsetaper2

Most of the people I know w/ VW's and German "daily driver" cars dedicate a lot of time (and $$) getting repairs done.

German engineering is a BS misnomer... its more like German over-complication...

Germans make mistakes too..... and lost a war quite possibly due in considerable part to over-complication of weapons systems.....

However.... You are mistaking a philosophy for a quality issue.

It seems that most european cars are expected to be maintained..... there are known intervals for doing various maintenance things.... the dealer will tell you that you are due for this or that. I got quite used to that, having driven VW, SAAB, and Volvo.

When I bought a new Chevy truck, I was shocked to find the difference in philosophy.

US vehicles are ASSUMED to be virtually ignored as far as maintenance. If you change your oil regularly you are a freak.

I tried to find out what maintenance items the truck was due for..... HAH..... the dealer responded by proposing their "special 201 point maintenance" or some such term.... which cost many hundred dollars (take THAT, morsetaper2!), but much of which didn't even apply to my vehicle, since mine is a stick, and has essentially zero of the "usual" options.
Much of it was also "fluff", tire rotation, washer fluid refilling, and the like.

Regular maintenance intervals? " nevah hoid of it". Even though a few things were actually in the manual.

The attitude seemed to be that the customer would wait until something broke, and THEN would get it fixed.

EVEN the factory intervals for oil changes and so forth were downplayed..... in favor of the "201 point washer fluid maintenance", WHICH DIDN"T INCLUDE MUCH OF WHAT LITTLE FACTORY STUFF WAS IN FACT LISTED IN THE MANUAL.

But they sure did love that "201 point washer fluid maintenance"...........

Freakin Americans..............

Originally Posted by John Welden

At least German cars don't look like something out of a cartoon.

WTF

Amen.

Have no idea what they were trying to achieve with that new Camaro but I still don't get it....

The Challenger is marginally "cool", if it wasn't such a brick. IMO, late model Dodge quality is some of the worst, especially the interiors... and this coming from a 60-70's Mopar fan. :/

Originally Posted by cmailco

Amen.

Have no idea what they were trying to achieve with that new Camaro but I still don't get it....

The Challenger is marginally "cool", if it wasn't such a brick. IMO, late model Dodge quality is some of the worst, especially the interiors... and this coming from a 60-70's Mopar fan. :/

Americans dominate at aviation, but cars.. Jesus chirst. I think the key is that you can't decorate airplanes and that forces them to keep shit from becoming awful. Theres no "styling" department at Boeing.

Originally Posted by cmailco

Have no idea what they were trying to achieve with that new Camaro but I still don't get it....

William Durrant cast the philosphy of General Motors in stone. "Engineering doesn't pay".

That, and the most important motion a car makes is the one off the showroom floor.

Originally Posted by John Welden

Americans dominate at aviation, but cars.. Jesus chirst. I think the key is that you can't decorate airplanes and that forces them to keep shit from becoming awful. Theres no "styling" department at Boeing.

That's why I own a Mazda....Zoom Zoom.

Originally Posted by Dualkit

As I have said time and time again It shocks me we have so many liberals in here. Environmental regulation is the enemy of manufacturing, and if that isn't a liberal cause I don't know what is. So I come to the conclusion most of you have no idea what liberalism or conservatism mean or you are pretending to be someone you are not. Like a button pusher that claims to be upper management, etc,etc.

As you seem to know, and what with me being a foreigner, could you clue me in as to what is understood by "conservative" and "liberal" in the USA?

I'm assuming it isn't just other names for Republicans and Democrats.
Can a Democrat be conservative and a Republican liberal on some issues?

Originally Posted by JST

Germans make mistakes too..... and lost a war quite possibly due in considerable part to over-complication of weapons systems.....

However.... You are mistaking a philosophy for a quality issue.

It seems that most european cars are expected to be maintained..... there are known intervals for doing various maintenance things.... the dealer will tell you that you are due for this or that. I got quite used to that, having driven VW, SAAB, and Volvo.

When I bought a new Chevy truck, I was shocked to find the difference in philosophy.

US vehicles are ASSUMED to be virtually ignored as far as maintenance. If you change your oil regularly you are a freak.

I tried to find out what maintenance items the truck was due for..... HAH..... the dealer responded by proposing their "special 201 point maintenance" or some such term.... which cost many hundred dollars (take THAT, morsetaper2!), but much of which didn't even apply to my vehicle, since mine is a stick, and has essentially zero of the "usual" options.
Much of it was also "fluff", tire rotation, washer fluid refilling, and the like.

Regular maintenance intervals? " nevah hoid of it". Even though a few things were actually in the manual.

The attitude seemed to be that the customer would wait until something broke, and THEN would get it fixed.

EVEN the factory intervals for oil changes and so forth were downplayed..... in favor of the "201 point washer fluid maintenance", WHICH DIDN"T INCLUDE MUCH OF WHAT LITTLE FACTORY STUFF WAS IN FACT LISTED IN THE MANUAL.

But they sure did love that "201 point washer fluid maintenance"...........

Freakin Americans..............

Probably one of the reasons Europeans are reasonably meticulous about maintaining car service rules is that the guarantee depends on it. A 2 year guarantee is considered low and some car makes give up to a 6 year guarantee or a km max. Of course the stuff that just gets worn naturally (brakes, tires etc. isn't covered above their own specified guarantee).

On the subect of what makes a car look good then (and everybody has their own taste) two of the greatest looking models ever to drive the roads were both Jaguars. An XJ from the 70ties and an E Type from the 60ties.

jaguar xj - Google-søgning

jaguar xj - Google-søgning It might say XJ but the pictures shown are of an E type.

Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke

As you seem to know, and what with me being a foreigner, could you clue me in as to what is understood by "conservative" and "liberal" in the USA?

I'm assuming it isn't just other names for Republicans and Democrats.
Can a Democrat be conservative and a Republican liberal on some issues?

I'm a US citizen so I'll take a go at this.

Grover Norquist == Conservative
Noam Chomsky == Liberal

I don't think "understood" means what you think it means though. I left the States on account of that.

Originally Posted by morsetaper2

Most of the people I know w/ VW's and German "daily driver" cars dedicate a lot of time (and $$) getting repairs done.

The whole (misconception) of german quality when it comes to automobiles just baffles me?? I carpooled w/ someone who worked at VW-Audi US headquaters here in Wash DC and her VW was in the shop for repairs (not regular maintenence) at least once per quarter. Seems like german coils have a lifespan of 6 mos at best.

And you know how many $750 shop bills she paid on "bad coils". Baffling.

I now carpool w. someone who is a Volvo fiend. $3000 repair & maintenance bills are viewed as "normal". Now we are in Swedish territory, so I have digressed...

German engineering is a BS misnomer... its more like German over-complication...

Mb 240D. Enough said.
Tom

Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke

As you seem to know, and what with me being a foreigner, could you clue me in as to what is understood by "conservative" and "liberal" in the USA?

I'm assuming it isn't just other names for Republicans and Democrats.
Can a Democrat be conservative and a Republican liberal on some issues?

In the USA, the meanings diverge many times, but in theory:

Liberals want to grow government.

Conservatives want to shrink government.

Originally Posted by smalltime

In the USA, the meanings diverge many times, but in theory:

Liberals want to grow government.

Conservatives want to shrink government.

When have conservatives ever shrunk government? Not in my lifetime..

Originally Posted by smalltime

In the USA, the meanings diverge many times, but in theory:

Liberals want to grow government.

Conservatives want to shrink government.

Liberals want the same Laws for everyone.
Conservatives want to bend Gravity.

Originally Posted by smalltime

In the USA, the meanings diverge many times, but in theory:

Liberals want to grow government.

Conservatives want to shrink government.

You can theorize all you want, but in the real world on the Federal level; Liberals want government to work and try to make it work; Conservatives believe it will fail and work hard every day to make their belief reality. For local government, in many places we still have people from both parties who really want to make things work and try very hard to do a good job.

Fun fact #1 - who grew the government more, Bill Clinton or George Bush? Bush and it wasn't even close.

Fun Fact #2 - who grew the government more, Bill Clinton or Ronald Reagan? Reagan and again it wasn't even close.

Fun Fact #3 - Name the presidents since 1970 who have proposed and implemented a balanced budget. Clinton.

Something must be wrong here, the most fiscally responsible president who actually shrank government spending more as a percentage of GDP than anyone since Nixon in his first term was a "liberal" Democrat named Clinton.

You can go here, Big Government Republicans - NYTimes.com, and here RVC--Graphs for some more statistics if you are so inclined.

Originally Posted by <jbc>

Liberals want the same Laws for everyone.
Conservatives want to bend Gravity.

Ohh???? Like those unions that backed and supported the Oblaba and then asked for and got exemptions to his health care rules???

Originally Posted by AndyF

...anyone since Nixon...

That Nixon data doesn't look so good when you also take into account he devalued the dollar by 7.9%.

Originally Posted by Gary E

Ohh???? Like those unions that backed and supported the Oblaba and then asked for and got exemptions to his health care rules???

That would be in line with the modern conservative movement. Yes.

Let's hope Newt wins the republifuck nomination! He has so much baggage, it wouldn't fit in the cargo hold of a 747.

Originally Posted by <jbc>

I'm a US citizen so I'll take a go at this.

Grover Norquist == Conservative
Noam Chomsky == Liberal

I don't think "understood" means what you think it means though. I left the States on account of that.

Who the hell are they? Never heard of them

Originally Posted by smalltime

In the USA, the meanings diverge many times, but in theory:

Liberals want to grow government.

Conservatives want to shrink government.

Thanks. You kept that simple enough so I could understand it.
Truth be told it does seem like a good description (and an excellent definition) as I understand the two things.

That would make me a conservative but without declaring myself to be a Republican
The Tea Party lot to me seems like an outing from "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest".