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Thread: article: It's Not the Wages Stupid

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    jscpm's Avatar
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    Default article: It's Not the Wages Stupid

    Interesting article on Bloomberg today "It's Not the Wages Stupid" explaining why US manufacturing is moving abroad:

    Pope: America
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    I disagree with Bloomberg. Of course it's wages. Corporations generally don't pay taxes. That's the way the system is designed, to strongly encourage spending on capital investment, payroll, R & D, etc. I was incorporated once, I didn't pay any corporate taxes. I could have held the money and taken a hit, but why do that?

    The reason for Germany and Japan's apparent aberration is those countries have very aggressive manufacturing/industrial policy. Industry is treated like spoiled brats who get everything they ask. R & D in Germany is heavily subsidized by the tax payer. Germany has guilds that go back hundreds of years, and still have strong influence to this day.

    In the USA, it's sink of swim.

    Gary
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    SND
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    I wonder who'll be the first here to say that it is the wages, we're totally overpaid!!!


    It's a lot of things. We've seen lots of companies close that were here for a 100yrs, but they're still in the same POS broken down not a window left building they started in, just looking at it from a mile away is depressing and makes you wish it would just crumble now that its empty, put something fresh in that waste of space. A lot of our industry lived its life, got old, crippled and died, while many other countries are on the rise, building the things we were building here 50-100yrs ago, and we're helping them do it.

    Just yesterday I saw they're filling a portion of the harbor for a new condo development.
    I thought how crazy is it that when it comes to dredging to make the harbor deeper and more efficient so that larger ships can come in various ports, there's no money, too big a project, but when you wanna fill it with dirt, go right ahead, we got money for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedBaron View Post
    I disagree with Bloomberg. Of course it's wages. Corporations generally don't pay taxes. That's the way the system is designed, to strongly encourage spending on capital investment, payroll, R & D, etc. I was incorporated once, I didn't pay any corporate taxes. I could have held the money and taken a hit, but why do that?

    The reason for Germany and Japan's apparent aberration is those countries have very aggressive manufacturing/industrial policy. Industry is treated like spoiled brats who get everything they ask. R & D in Germany is heavily subsidized by the tax payer. Germany has guilds that go back hundreds of years, and still have strong influence to this day.

    In the USA, it's sink of swim.

    Gary
    So far, he is on track. Another 'heavy' for going offshore - however scrambled taxes might be - is also the environmental & pollution regulatory scene.

    Not just the not-polluting part - many firms do not do that anyway. The initial environmental impact work and ongoing paperwork and permits part as well.

    And for those who DO pollute? Literally getting away with slow murder in Asia.

    Bloomberg ID's the author as a Sierra Club guru, so in the next two segments, I'd be VERY surprised if he didn't address that.

    Bill

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    SND
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    Talking about the added costs, things definitely do get more pricey when you care about people and their safety, and have a bit of a back up plan when they get injured. We have regulations that make sure certain standards are met,(though some stuff does get foolish) but overall its decent. While companies don't have to care if some poor bastard in india is pouring the casting in sandals and his face shield is his hand, except he can't see through that so the solution is to squint.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SND View Post
    Talking about the added costs, things definitely do get more pricey when you care about people and their safety, and have a bit of a back up plan when they get injured. We have regulations that make sure certain standards are met,(though some stuff does get foolish) but overall its decent. While companies don't have to care if some poor bastard in india is pouring the casting in sandals and his face shield is his hand, except he can't see through that so the solution is to squint.
    They do that. And worse. And the '100% local' firms that become competitors or subcontractors more so than the 'expat' firms.

    The 'foreign' firms that come in can supply uniforms, safety shoes, run a cheap or even free cafeteria, put an RN - even an MD - on-staff, run clinics for the worker's family as well as the worker. Sometimes build and even fund and staff schools and hospitals. Smaller newcomers might buy and kit-out an ambulance, pay for a new radio or phone system for police or fire, donate a truckload of fire-extinguishers for the public buildings, fund and equip sports centers...

    Appear to their new hosts like outright heroes, IOW.

    And with less cost and effort by far than in the US or Europe, and no socially unacceptable 'bribes'.

    But they are still pumping toxins into the groundwater, effluents into the air, and running the whole shebang off coal-fired power of the dirtier flavour, 'coz NOBODY dares to look at that sort of gift horse straight-on. Folks still go hungry out here if they don't take such breaks as come their way.

    Our 'mission if we choose to accept it' is not to claw that all back. It is to lift ourselves up to a higher technological level they cannot yet duplicate. Repeat. Repeat ....

    Never ending process, that.

    Bill

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    All we need to do is can the EPA and quit enforcing all those stupid environmental regs! They're killing jobs!

    Look how great things are in China! We could have all this if it weren't for Al Gore and his tree huggin fag friends!











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    They were all hot to enforce the Kyoto Treaty as long as the USA was paying.

    I never have heard of such failed logic - and yes I read the dam thing. There was literally nothing to prevent them from using up some 3rd World's Carbon Credits, all the while the USA would be pumping money into the country to clean up the mess, and then the Corps could move on to the next 3rd World Country and start the whole process over again

    We never should have entered into such obviously flawed treaties as the China Most Favored Nation Status and NAFTA in the first place, and yes there was plenty of opposition then saying we needed those provisions. Now once we raise the concerns and obvious short comings, they say we can't go back and implement those provisions. - what a crock
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Welden View Post
    All we need to do is can the EPA and quit enforcing all those stupid environmental regs! They're killing jobs!

    Look how great things are in China! We could have all this if it weren't for Al Gore and his tree huggin fag friends!

    Too soon we forget:

    Historic Pittsburgh - Image Collections - Smoke Control Lantern Slide Collection

    Anyone living in the coal, steel, or chemical-factory belts of the US or Europe in the '40's and '50's wasn't much better-off.

    For lack of a WISER choice, we've borrowed our children and Grandchildren's WAGES to fund our debt. And our 'cleanup'. And its side-effects in shuttered industry.

    For lack of a VIABLE choice, they've borrowed the years of their children and Grandchildren's LIVES.

    Cleanups take a major sea-change in the priorities of a nation, and they are not yet so wealthy in China as to start the process in earnest.

    Bill
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    SND
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    A lot of the current regulations and sometimes over regulation we now have here definitely comes from all the careless, high pollution and other crap we once did here too, and some regions of north america still do it, or are still very polluted and will be for 100-1000's of years.

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    I am not convinced.
    Here is a recent poll of 9750 business execs, who claim that, while IT IS THE WAGES to some degree, the crummy educational system in the USA, and our Political Gridlock, are also big reasons why companies choose to build elsewhere.

    U.S. economy losing competitive edge: survey | Reuters

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedBaron View Post
    I disagree with Bloomberg. Of course it's wages. Corporations generally don't pay taxes. That's the way the system is designed, to strongly encourage spending on capital investment, payroll, R & D, etc. I was incorporated once, I didn't pay any corporate taxes. I could have held the money and taken a hit, but why do that?

    The reason for Germany and Japan's apparent aberration is those countries have very aggressive manufacturing/industrial policy. Industry is treated like spoiled brats who get everything they ask. R & D in Germany is heavily subsidized by the tax payer. Germany has guilds that go back hundreds of years, and still have strong influence to this day.

    In the USA, it's sink of swim.

    Gary
    I don't know about Japan but in Germany (and for that matter northern Europe) taxes are much more than in the USA. I often can't help but wonder where some get their informtion from. Not saying everything on the internet is BS (far from it) but it could often be a good idea not to just read what you want to believe. There are fors and againsts just about everything if you look hard enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    I often can't help but wonder where some get their information from.
    They get it from the conservative media and Republicans. ALL they talk about is high taxes and over regulation.

    OBAMA IS KILLING JOBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    It's a fucking joke.
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    Taxes are for proles.

    "Executive Income" != "Wages"

    People at or below median wage shouldn't be taxed at all. And people in poverty need help.
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    Quote Originally Posted by <jbc> View Post
    People at or below median wage shouldn't be taxed at all. And people in poverty need help.
    How are we supposed to keep the poor held down if we go around helping them?
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Welden View Post
    How are we supposed to keep the poor held down if we go around helping them?
    I du'no. Keep 'm ignorant maybe?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Welden View Post
    OBAMA IS KILLING JOBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    His hands off policy on prosecuting FRAUD isn't helping.
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    Quote Originally Posted by <jbc> View Post


    His hands off policy on prosecuting FRAUD isn't helping.
    It's not his fault, the bankers own him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Welden View Post
    They get it from the conservative media and Republicans. ALL they talk about is high taxes and over regulation.

    OBAMA IS KILLING JOBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    It's a fucking joke.
    Conservative media? I just thought you were a foul mouthed internet bully, now your perception is questioned. I think you are watching a different game than the rest of us.
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    while I dont agree with the way he presents his message, I agree with john that most media is conservative.
    My local newspaper is conservative (the skagit valley herald)
    My local bigtown newspaper is conservative (the seattle times)
    the only national newspaper that I could get delivered for years is conservative (the wall street journal)

    This is true in most towns- its true the New York Times is centrist- as in, not conservative- but I would hardly call it liberal- and aside from that, basically every newspaper I have read in every major american city is pretty conservative.

    Every radio station I can get except NPR is conservative- that would about 10 to 1, in my area, and that seems to be about the same in every place I have ever rented a car and turned on the radio.

    Fox News is the top TEN most watched news shows- and most local TV, at least in the West, is owned by conservatives as well- the largest TV and Radio owner in most western states is the Mormon Church, thru their Bonneville company.

    So yes, where I live, virtually all the mainstream media, except maybe ONE cable news channel, and ONE radio station, is conservative.

    I used to live in LA, and you could get KPFK there- that was a bit more to the left- but I would say in most of America, Rush Limbaugh is considered mainstream.

    All the major Broadcast news networks are owned by major, conservative, corporations- in fact, Bain Capital, Mitt Romney's old company, owns a big chunk of Clear Channel, the employer of Rush, Sean, and Glenn.

    To find Left wing news, you are basically left with obscure websites- NO national TV, Radio, or Newspaper is what I would call left of center.
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    Quote Originally Posted by <jbc> View Post
    Taxes are for proles.

    "Executive Income" != "Wages"

    People at or below median wage shouldn't be taxed at all. And people in poverty need help.
    LOL Yes, in a perfect world.

    Once upon a time mankind only did two things - survived (food and shelter) and procreated (babies).
    Even then equality didn't exist. Those that had the biggest clubs ruled.
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