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Thread: China's Subsidized Auto Industry

  1. #141
    Ries's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jscpm View Post
    Without American supplies the Russians would have had to surrender.

    The arctic convoys supplied the Russians with fuel and ammunition that were crucial to the defense of Moscow. All the train tracks in Russia go through Moscow. To give a sense for how valuable these shipments were: the very first convoy to Russia, which occurred as the Germans were driving towards Moscow virtually unopposed, had only about 60,000 tons of capacity. Not much you say? That is enough capacity to equip an army of about 250,000 men for 100 days--all their food, ammunition and fuel. And that was the SMALLEST of the convoys.

    The Americans and to a lesser extent the British literally bottle fed Russia through the war. Virtually all of their food, fuel and ammunition 1941-1943 came from the United States and the majority of their vehicles and artillery either came directly from the States or was built under joint ventures and with Americans supplying critical parts.
    All of this is true.
    And none of it in the slightest means that the Germans could have conquered the Soviet Union. The Russians were willing to sacrifice on a level unimaginable to us fat and sassy americans, and did. They stopped the Germans, period. And they, themselves, invented, and built by the thousands and millions, cheap, effective weapons that functioned in mud and freezing temperatures, and killed Germans just as well as expensive american weapons that were shipped across the ocean.
    We didnt send them the T34- they made those all on their own, and they made up to 1300 a month of these during WW2.
    Same thing with the Moisin Nagant- a cheap, tough, efficient rifle that killed Germans, and cranked em out by the million- they made close to 8 million of them during the war.

    The Russians were willing to fight with nothing, and did, again and again.
    I am not in any way endorsing their political system, or the horrible abuses they perpetrated against their own citizens- but in terms of beating the Germans, they would have done it anyway, with or without lend-lease.

    For instance, the amazing bravery of the 588th Night Bombing Regiment, the Night Witches, hated and feared by the Germans, consisted of 20 year old girl pilots, mechanics, and ground crews, flying wood and cloth obsolete biplanes, who flew 24,000 bombing runs during the war.
    We lionize our airmen, who flew state of the art Boeing bombers with armor, multiple 50 caliber machine guns, fighter support, and the ability to fly so high they could be relatively safe even during bombing. These Russian girls (and most were under 21, indeed, "girls") had none of that- and they fearlessly went out again and again, and killed Germans.
    The sheer willpower, fearlessness, and just plain stubborness of this was repeated all over the Eastern Front, and, technology or no, new Dodge trucks or no, the Russians were NOT going to let the Germans invade Russia, and they did not.
    Frostbit, shoeless, in rags, Russians killed the Wermacht with shovels when they ran out of bullets.

    I am sure they appreciated our support.
    But to say WE stopped the Germans from invading the Soviet Union is silly revisionism.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    All of this is true....
    But to say WE stopped the Germans from invading the Soviet Union is silly revisionism.
    We did not stop the Germans from invading the Soviet Union. We stopped them from conquering it.

    Some amateur historians compare the German campaign of 1941 to Napolean's campaign of 1812 and make the claim that the Russian's could have held on if the German's had captured Moscow, but this is not the case. All the rail and canal lines in the USSR go through Moscow. If it had been captured the Russians would have had to surrender everything west of the Urals because they would have had no supply. In that event what would have happened is they would have moved the government to the Far East.

    The Soviets had the immediate plan of evacuating to Kuybyshev in the event of Moscow's capture, but this locale would not have been secure if Moscow was reduced because there would be no way to get food or ammo there once the Moscow line was cut.

    This is all by-the-by however. The essential point is that America's presence in Germany has nothing to do with "protecting" Germany and this can be clearly seen by the disposition of forces of there which are arranged to occupy the country, not protect it from foreign invasion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jscpm View Post
    We did not stop the Germans from invading the Soviet Union. We stopped them from conquering it.
    I think a more accurate description is that you helped by supplying some of the means to stop the Germans. The actual stopping was very much done by the Soviet people, and just a few convoys reached Russia before that stopping was actually done. Saying that the US stopped German invasion of Soviet is like claiming that a carpenters supplier of nails built the house...

    (As a side note to balance it the US and its companies also helped supply the German side with steel, oil and other supplies necessary to start the war in the first place. Well into 1941 actually, and some claim some companies continued even throughout the war).
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    some claim some companies continued even throughout the war.
    Name the companies....NOW!
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalltime View Post
    Name the companies....NOW!
    Start here and read on....

    Trading With the Enemy -- An Expose of the Nazi-American Money Plot 1933-1949, by Charles Higham, at The Ralph Nader Library

    .....Ford's book The International Jew was issued in 1927. A virulent anti-Semitic tract, it was still being widely distributed in Latin America and the Arab countries as late as 1945. Hitler admired the book and it influenced him deeply. Visitors to Hitler's headquarters at the Brown House in Munich noticed a large photograph of Henry Ford hanging in his office. Stacked high on the table outside were copies of Ford's book. As early as 1923, Hitler told an interviewer from the Chicago Tribune, "I wish that I could send some of my shock troops to Chicago and other big American cities to help." He was referring to stories that Ford was planning to run for President.

    Ford was one of the few people singled out for praise in Mein Kampf. At Hitler's trial in 1924, Erhard Auer of the Bavarian Diet testified that Ford had given Hitler money. Ford formed crucial links in The Fraternity at an early stage. He appointed Gerhardt Westrick's partner Dr. Heinrich Albert as chairman of the Ford Company. Other prominent figures in that company were fanatically pro-Nazi. They included a grandson of the Kaiser and Carl Bosch, Schmitz's forerunner as head of I.G. Farben. Later, Carl Krauch of I.G. Farben became a director and Kurt von Schroder, as one might have predicted, handled the banking.

    Carl Krauch testified in an interrogation in 1946:

    I myself knew Henry Ford and admired him. I went to see Goring personally about that. I told Goring that I myself knew his son Edsel, too, and I told Goring that if we took the Ford independence away from them in Germany, it would aggrieve friendly relations with American industry in the future. I counted on a lot of success for the adaptation of American methods in Germany's industries, but that could be done only in friendly cooperation. Goring listened to me and then he said: "I agree. I shall see to it that the German Ford Company will not be incorporated in the Hermann Goring Company." So I participated regularly in the supervisory board meetings to inform myself about the business processes of Henry Ford and, if possible, to take a stand for the Henry Ford Works after the war had begun. Thus, we succeeded in keeping the Ford Works working and operating independently of our government's seizure.

    Edsel Ford had a great deal to do with the European companies. He was different in character from his father. He was a nervous, high-strung man who tried to work off his extreme tensions and guilts over inherited wealth in a furious addiction to tennis and other sports. Darkly handsome, with a whipcord physique, he was miserable at heart. He could not relate to his father, who despised him, and his inner distress caused him severe stomach ulcers that developed into gastric cancer by the early 1940s. Nevertheless, he and his father had one thing in common. True figures of The Fraternity, they believed in Business as Usual in time of war.

    Edsel was on the board of American I.G. and General Aniline and Film throughout the 1930s. He and his father, following their meetings with Gerhardt Westrick at Dearborn in 1940, refused to build aircraft engines for England and instead built supplies of the 5-ton military trucks that were the backbone of German army transportation. They arranged to ship tires to Germany despite the shortages; 30 percent of the shipments went to Nazi-controlled territories abroad. German Ford employee publications included such editorial statements as, "At the beginning of this year we vowed to give our best and utmost for final victory, in unshakable faithfulness to our Fuehrer. " Invariably, Ford remembered Hitler's birthday and sent him 50,000 Reichsmarks a year. His Ford chief in Germany was responsible for selling military documents to Hitler. Westrick's partner Dr. Albert continued to work in Hitler's cause when that chief came to the United States to continue his espionage. In 1941, Henry Ford delivered a bitter attack on the Jews to The Manchester Guardian (February 16, 1941) saying inter alia, that the United States should make England and Germany fight until they both collapsed and that after that there would be a coalition of the powers....

    After Pearl Harbor, Edsel Ford moved to protect the company's interest in Occupied France, even though this would mean collaboration with the Nazi government. Edsel and Dollfus decided to consolidate their operation in conjunction with Carl Krauch, Heinrich Albert, and Gerhardt Westrick in Germany. The problem they had was how to keep in touch, since their two countries were at war. In order to overcome this difficulty, Edsel traveled to Washington at the beginning of 1942 and entered into an arrangement with Assistant Secretary of State Breckinridge Long, who simultaneously was blocking financial aid to German-Jewish refugees by citing the Trading with the Enemy Act. Long agreed that it should be possible for letters to travel to and from Occupied France via Lisbon and Vichy. Since it would be too dangerous to risk the letters falling into the hands of the press or foreign agents, they would have to be carried by a Portuguese courier named George Lesto who, with clearance from the Nazi government, was permitted to travel in and out of Paris.

    On January 28, 1942, Dollfus sent the first letter after Pearl Harbor to Edsel Ford in Dearborn, Michigan, via the Portuguese courier Lesto. Dollfus wrote that, "Since the state of war between U.S.A. and Germany I am not able to correspond with you very easily. I have asked Lesto to go to Vichy and mail to you the following information." He added that production was continuing as before, that trucks were being manufactured for the occupying Germans and the French, and that Ford was ahead of the French automobile manufacturers in supplying the enemy. Dollfus said he was getting support from the Vichy government to preserve the interests of the American shareholders and that a company in North Africa was being founded for the Nazis with ground plots in Oran. Amazingly, the letter concluded by saying, "I propose to send again Mr. Lesto to the States as soon as all formalities and authorizations are accomplished."

    Edsel replied at length on May 13: "It is interesting to note that you have started your African company and are laying plans for a more peaceful future. " He went on, "I have received a request from the State Department to make a recommendation for issuance of a visa to Mr. Lesto. " However, the letter went on, Ford was uneasy about making the request; it was clear that he was nervous about the matter being disclosed.

    The Royal Air Force, apparently not briefed on the world connections of The Fraternity, had just bombed the Poissy plant. Ford wrote on May 15 that photographs of the plant on fire were published in our newspapers here but fortunately no reference was made to the Ford Motor Company. In other words, Edsel was relieved that it was not made clear to the American public that he was operating the plant for the Nazis.

    On February 11, 1942, Dollfus wrote again -- that the results of the year up to December 31, 1941, showed a net profit for Ford's French branch of 58 million francs including payment for dealings with the Nazis.

    On June 6, Dollfus wrote Edsel enclosing a memorandum prepared by George Lesto. The memo stated that the RAF had now bombed the plant four times, and that all machinery and equipment had been taken from the plant and scattered all over the country. Lesto was pleased to state that the Vichy government "agreed to pay for all damages." The reparation was "approved by the German government." Ford replied to this letter on July 17, 1942, expressing pleasure with this arrangement, congratulating Lesto on organizing the repayment, and saying that he had shown the letter to his father and to Charles E. Sorenson, and that they both joined him in sending best wishes to Dollfus and the staff, in the hope that they would continue to carry on the good work that they were doing.

    Meanwhile, Dollfus and Heinrich Albert set up another branch of Ford in North Africa, headquartered in Vichy Algiers with the approval of I.G. Farben. It was to build trucks and armored cars for Rommel's army. In a lengthy report to the State Department dated July 11, 1942, Felix Cole, American Consul in Algiers, sent a detailed account of the planned operation, not complaining that the headquarters was located in the Occupied Zone of France or that Dollfus was prominent in the Pucheu ** group of bankers that financed the factory through the Worms Bank, the Schroder Bank, and BIS correspondent in Paris. Cole remarked en passant, "The [Worms] firm is greatly interested in the efforts now being made to effect a compromise peace" on behalf of Germany." Cole had put his finger on something: Dollfus was more than a mere Nazi collaborator working with Edsel Ford. He was a key link in The Fraternity's operation in Europe, scheming with Pucheu, the Worms Bank, the Bank of France, the Chase, and the Bank for International Settlements.

    The letter from Cole went on: "It is alleged that the main outlets for the new works [in Oran] will be southwards, but the population which is already getting plenty of propaganda about the collaboration of French-German-American capital and the questionable (?) sincerity of the American war effort *** is already pointing an accusing finger at a transaction which has been for long a subject of discussion in commercial circles. ".....
    Ford was just one of about 300 U.S. companies that continued to do business with Germany during WW II.

    Steve
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    machinehead61 is offline Titanium
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    I might add that U.S. companies putting business before national defense is not new.

    Here is an example from WW I and the auto industry......

    Although WIB acted primarily through its power over priority, we also relied on our power of persuasion to elicit the cooperation from industry which success of the war program required. When priorities and persuasion failed, we had one instrument of last resort to enforce our will – the power of commandeering – the power to seize property.....

    But it would be misleading to suggest that all industry leaders were motivated by altruism or that their cooperation was spontaneous. Had this been so, the history of WIB would not have been filled with so many instances of conflict. If some men accepted without question the intrusion of government into their affairs, others resented it and some fought it tooth and nail....

    Not even the fact of war was sufficient to win them from their laissez faire convictions that government intervention was somehow un-American.

    The most dedicated and determined exponents of this point of view were in the two giant industries: auto and steel. WIB's struggles with these two giants illustrate some of the problems we faced and how we overcame them.

    The problem of converting from peacetime to wartime production was always a thorny one. Contrary to widely held views, manufacturers were not always eager for war work, especially when it required them to abandon a profitable line of production. This was the case with the auto manufacturers.

    WIB moved early to curtail the production of pleasure cars. We had no intention of countenancing their production while we scrounged for steel for tanks, guns, locomotives, and ships. At first we tried to rely upon voluntary agreements under which the automobile producers pledged to cut production by two-thirds. But we soon found that these agreements were not self-enforcing.

    By 1918, the demand for steel, bred by the war, was more than one hundred per cent of the industry's capacity. Moreover, I knew that the demand would go higher, that great quantities of steel would be required for such programs as the one Winston Churchill, Britain's Minister of Munitions, had in mind.

    Churchill had sent a special representative to advise me, in utmost secrecy, of his plan to build a great force of armored troop and weapons carriers. These tank-like vehicles, to be unveiled in the great offensive planned for the spring of 1919, would permit the attacking forces to follow close behind the artillery barrages instead of advancing on foot across no-man's land under enemy fire.

    None of us could foresee that Germany's collapse would make it unnecessary to go ahead with this plan. We had to be ready to provide the steel and other resources it would require. So, in the summer of 1918, in the face of Detroit's uncooperative attitude, we called representatives of the automobile industry to Washington.

    The heads of all the great companies were present, with the exception of Henry Ford. They listened with ill-concealed impatience as we explained WIB's plans to curtail immediately the procuction of automobiles by seventy-five per cent, and employ the facilities thus freed for war production. Judge Parker, in charge of priorities, eloquently explained the urgent need for steel which had led us to this decision. A grave responsibility rested on us all, Parker said. It was impossible to permit production of passenger cars instead of war supplies. Reluctant as we were to check a growing industry which these men had pioneered and developed, the soldiers' needs came first.

    This reasonable speech made no impression. John Dodge led the attack by giving me a personal dressing down. He did not want any white-haired, white-faced Wall Street speculator telling him how he ought to conduct his business, he said among other things. My associates, particularly Hugh Frayne, angrily rebuked Dodge. “Let him alone,” I interrupted, “I'm sure that the gentleman feels better now that he's gotten that off his chest.”

    The other auto manufacturers, in terms less emotional than Dodge, made it equally clear that they were prepared to ignore WIB.

    They informed us that they had stocked all the steel and coal they needed and could proceed in spite of us.


    During a lull in the argument I made up my mind on what had to be done to meet this challenge to our authority.

    “Just a moment, gentlemen,” I said as I picked up the phone and put in a call to McAdoo at the Railroad Administration. With the auto people listening to me, I said, “Mac, I want you to take down the names of the following factories, and I want you to stop every wheel going in and out.”

    The automobile men looked at me, astonished and outraged, as I read off the names of Dodge, General Motors, Ford, and other plants. This effect was heightened as I put in a call to Secretary of War Baker. “Mr. Secretary, I would like you to issue an order to commandeer all the steel in the following yards,” I said. Then I called Fuel Administration Garfield and asked him to seize the manufacturers' coal supplies.

    That did it. Billy Durant, head of General Motors, said, “I quit.” The others capitulated soon after, but not before some had tried to bring political pressures to bear. Henry Ford was the last to come along. I called on him at his hotel in Washington to try to explain the urgency of curtailing production of his cars. He simply could not see why this was necessary, and insisted that he could provide whatever the government needed without curtailing the output of his famous cars.

    Some time after our climatic meeting with the auto men, George Peek, WIB Commissioner of Finished Products, visited Dodge in his factory in Detroit. The manufacturer expressed regret at his outburst at me and said he wanted to see it right. “Oh, hell,” Peek replied, “the Chief doesn't pay any attention to that. Everybody cusses him out. If you want to square yourself, just beat your production schedule on those carriages for the 155 mm. Guns.” Dodge did exactly that.

    Shortly after the war, I was standing in the lobby of the old Ritz-Carlton Hotel in New York when Dodge came up to me and said, “I wish you'd shake hands with me. Will you?”

    “I don't know any reason why I shouldn't,” I said. “I remember the job you did on those gun carriages.”

    Dodge went on to explain how sorry he was about the wartime incident. “Come upstairs, Baruch,” he concluded, “and have a drink with me.”

    “Thank you, Mr. Dodge, but I'm late for an appointment,” I said.

    Dodge died of the impure prohibition liquor he drank that day.”

    Bernard M. Baruch
    Baruch, The Public Years. My Own Story, 1960
    p. 59-62
    And here is the steel industry during WW I.....

    “If businessmen resented dictation over what they could and could not produce, they resented even more intensely being told what they could charge for their goods. Price controls struck the pocketbook nerve, according to some the most sensitive known to man. It also violated every principle and tradition which businessmen held dear.

    In the three years before we entered the war, prices in the Untied States had skyrocketed as a result of frantic buying by the Allies. The average price of metals more than tripled, chemical prices had almost doubled, and food prices were up nearly fifty per cent. While these prices reflected the traditional workings of supply and demand, it was equally clear that the war had thrown the mechanism out of kilter and that we could not continue to allow prices to go unchecked.

    As I have noted earlier, one of the first things I undertook when I joined the Advisory Commission of the Council of National Defense was to negotiate price agreements with the producers of copper at prices well below the market. There were similar agreements with the producers of other raw materials. These agreements had a salutary effect on breaking the continuity of high prices, but only momentarily. Once we entered the war, the need for price controls became urgent, if runaway prices were not to swell the cost of war beyond reason and needlessly saddle the economy in the postwar period with burdensome price structures, taxes, and debts. As important as the economic considerations were the moral ones: the injustice of permitting some at home to profit – and to profiteer – while our boys were away fighting and dying, and their families were being squeezed by inflation....

    The need to control steel prices became urgent. The first step came in the summer of 1917 when, as Chairman of the raw Materials Committee, I went to Judge Elbert H. Gary, the redoubtable head of the United States Steel Corporation, to ask him to cut the price of ship plates ordered by the Navy and Shipping board...

    But ship plates were only one item in the iron and steel inventories whose astronomical prices had to be controlled. Connellsville coke, which had been $1.67 a ton in September, 1915, reached $12.25 by July, 1917. Basic pig iron, which was $12.59 in June, 1915, brought $52.50 a ton in June, 1917. Bessemer steel billets rose from $19.50 a ton in May, 1915, to $95 a ton in July, 1917. Structural steel shapeshad been $1.20 a hundredweight in December, 1914. By July, 1917, these were $6.20.

    In September, 1917, WIB moved to draw up a price schedule for coke, iron, and steel. At a meeting of the entire industry, at which sixty-five leading steel executives faced the board, this schedule was presented....

    The climax occurred when I asked Judge Gary if he would be interested in a letter I possessed, and handed it to him....It was a letter from the President, stating that he would commandeer the United States Steel Corporation or any other business on WIB's recommendation. Gary read the letter with an expressionless face and handed it back.

    “You haven't got anybody to run the Steel Company,” he said.
    “Oh yes I have, Judge,” I told him.
    “Who?”
    “Oh, we'll get a second lieutenant or somebody to run it.”
    That must have stung Gary to the quick.
    “But that won't trouble you very much,” I added. “If those mill towns find out why we've taken over, they'll present you with your mills brick by brick.”....

    On September 24th (1917) the President proclaimed the new prices which the WIB and the steel industry had agreed upon. They were: Connellsville coke, $6 a ton; pig iron, $33 a ton; shapes, $3 a hundredweight; iron ore, $5.05 a ton; steel bars, $2.90 a hundred pounds.....

    It has been estimated that this regulation of steel prices saved the government more than a billion dollars. The steel industry also did a superb job of production; but there is no question that profits, especially of the great integrated companies, were still excessive.”


    Bernard M. Baruch
    Baruch, The Public Years. My Own Story, 1960
    p. 62-68
    Profits during WW I were impressive as we learned too late to impose price controls.

    "The war (WW I) made so many new large property owners that the importance of the situation is greatly accentuated. It is estimated from income tax returns that the war added twelve to fifteen thousand new members to the millionaire class."

    Lionel D. Edie, Professor of Finance, University of Chicago
    Economics, Principles and Problems, 1928
    p. 454

    "Statistics covering 1551 bituminous coal-mining concerns for the year 1918 show that for that prosperous year, 337 concerns operated at a loss, which in the case of 92 companies exceeded 25 per cent of the invested capital.

    Among the 1214 concerns which showed a net income, the profits varied all the way from 1 to 500 per cent of the invested capital. It is always possible, of course, where the facts are known, to compute the average rate of profits. Thus, among the bituminous coal-mining concerns, the business profits averaged 18.86 per cent upon invested capital before payment of federal taxes, and 9.72 per cent after such payment."

    Richard T. Ely, Professor of Political Economy, University of Wisconsin
    Outlines of Economics, 1925
    p. 526
    WW II and things had changed a little but not much.....

    “The tire stocks – how existing vehicles could be kept rolling – were my immediate concern in the early days of the war. The larger drama concerned the production of new automobiles. The industry's appetite for scarce materials, including rubber, could no longer be sustained. But the auto companies were adamant. They wanted to prosper for just a little longer.

    In late December Henderson cut a deal. The automobile manufacturers, the urgencies of war not withstanding, would be allowed a few more weeks of production. Then it would stop; there would be no confrontation; the firms would not be accused of resisting the war effort. The reason was profit. The excuse was that this delay would allow the using up of components that would otherwise be wasted.

    The decision being indefensible, Henderson went over his defense in detail. Such care in drafting is why a bad decision very often sounds more appealing than a good one. At a staff meeting on January 2 (1942) before the action was to be announced, David Ginsburg told himhis explanation wouldn't wash. Henderson exploded in anger but later in the morning called us to another conference. He had gone over his case again. It still wasn't persuasive, and at noon we had a third rehearsal. By then he was both imaginative and eloquent. Staff cars were needed for the military; passenger cars were needed for defense workers; the components would otherwise be piled up in the factories for the duration. The weeks until the order went into effect would be used to plan the production of tanks and military vehicles and ensure that Detroit would truly be an arsenal of democracy.

    That afternoon we went over to the auditorium of the Social Security Building. It was nearly filled with reporters; stopping all automobile production in the United States was not a trivial thing. Henderson was detailed, voluble, persuasive. There was silence when he finished, and the newsmen continued to scribble. I.F. Stone, then as for generations the most intractably independent of reporters, was sitting in the front row. Henderson tried not to see him, tried again and failed.

    Stone asked, “Mr. Henderson, may we assume that this was a deal?”

    John Kenneth Galbraith
    A Life In Our Times, 1981
    pp. 157-158
    Montgomery Wards CEO Sewell Avery put his profits above government mandates and was carried out of his headquarters....



    During World War II, Avery would not comply with government orders to allow unionization efforts. As a result, National Guardsmen carried him from his office in 1944. “To hell with the government,” he blurted out at the Attorney General, “You... New Dealer!”

    In April 1944, four months into a nationwide strike by the company’s 12,000 workers, U.S. Army troops seized the Chicago offices of Montgomery Ward & Company. Montgomery Ward refused to comply with a War Labor Board order to recognize the unions and institute the terms of a collective bargaining agreement. Eight months later, with Montgomery Ward continuing to refuse to recognize the unions, President Roosevelt issued an Executive Order seizing all of Montgomery Ward’s property nationwide, citing the War Labor Disputes Act as well as his power under the Constitution as Commander in Chief.



    Steve

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    Some might find this interesting.

    Arms industry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    It's an industry plain and simple. It gets even more interesting when you look at some of the countries in the business big time. Good old "peaceful" and neutral Sweden and Switzerland to name but two.

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    BadBeta is offline Stainless
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalltime View Post
    Name the companies....NOW!
    I'm quite certain Steve has far better knowledge about this than me. That said you could also try digging in for instance Standard Oil, General Motors, IBM, Rockefeller/ Chase Manhattan, Coca Cola. Chances are you will not like what you find. Like Steve says there are many. There has also been written several books about the theme.

    (That said, being Norwegian I know a fair bit about national shame from cooperation with the enemy. Quisling, parts of police and military (many were nazies) not resisting the Germans, and my personal low: How Norwegians in the south actively helped and got paid to hastily build airfields for the Germans to bomb the still fighting Norwegian army in the North..)
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalltime View Post
    Name the companies....NOW!
    I hope your head didn't go the size of the script or your face the colour of the text. You seemed to express surprise and indignation. I doubt very much if any country in the world hasn't had things that they'd prefer remained as little known about as possible.

    Not quite the same thing but if there is corruption there is also much else not on the up and up.

    The Most and Least Corrupt Nations, 2009 — Infoplease.com

    More to the point

    Collaboration with the Axis Powers during World War II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    How the Allied multinationals supplied Nazi Germany throughout World War II | libcom.org
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    lazlo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadBeta View Post
    That said you could also try digging in for instance Standard Oil, General Motors, IBM, Rockefeller/ Chase Manhattan, Coca Cola. Chances are you will not like what you find. Like Steve says there are many. There has also been written several books about the theme.


    Greed knows no boundaries. The Germans sold gas centrifuges to Iraq, The Germans and Brits built the components for Saddam's SuperGun, Halliburton sold nuclear reactor components and serviced oilfield contracts with Iran until the New Yorker expose in 2010...

    (That said, being Norwegian I know a fair bit about national shame from cooperation with the enemy.
    Switzerland, aside from stashing away hoardes of stolen Nazi treasure, also continued to supply Germany with precision machinery, bearings, etc, as well as shipping German armaments to France and Italy. Several times towards the end of the war, the US bombed strategic Swiss factories, after repeatedly warning them to stop supplying the Germans. The US bombers were claimed to have been off-course, despite the precision delivery of their payloads

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing...n_World_War_II

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    War, like everything, is largely a matter of economics. Anyone who is suprised that America supplied Nazi Germany to an extent is naive.

    The United States supplied both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union throughout the war. The difference was that the Germans had to PAY for the goods, but the Soviets got them free. This is the difference between winning and losing.

    When Soviets found American food containers in German trenches they made all kinds of accusations, but those who are sophisticated understand such things. Where do you think the Japanese got all their oil to fight the war, from outer space? From the tiny amount they could squeak out of Java and Burma? Think again.

  12. #152
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    the difference, though, is that the lend lease equipment and supplies sent to the Soviet Union and Great Britain was paid for by taxpayer dollars.
    While the materials sold to the Italians, Germans, and Japanese went thru "arms length" south american and european subsidiaries of US companies.
    So one was actually overseen, to some degree, by elected officials.
    There was some cheating and overcharging by US companies selling arms to the US government during WW2- in fact, Lyndon Johnson made his bones in the House and then the Senate investigating and exposing war profiteering.

    But the vast majority of legal, government paid for supplies were on the up and up, and information is accessible thru government files.

    We will never know exactly how much the oil, rubber, steel, electronics, automotive, and other companies made from selling to the Axis, though.

  13. #153
    Miguels244 is offline Diamond
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    I hope your head didn't go the size of the script or your face the colour of the text. You seemed to express surprise and indignation. I doubt very much if any country in the world hasn't had things that they'd prefer remained as little known about as possible.

    Not quite the same thing but if there is corruption there is also much else not on the up and up.

    The Most and Least Corrupt Nations, 2009 — Infoplease.com

    More to the point

    Collaboration with the Axis Powers during World War II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    How the Allied multinationals supplied Nazi Germany throughout World War II | libcom.org
    Sadly people like small time seem to think that industry gives a shit about the nation...industry and the people who run it...and more to the point finance could not care less about the nations they are founded in or the people in those nations.

    It ruptures part of his capitalist meme.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Sadly people like small time seem to think that industry gives a shit about the nation...industry and the people who run it...and more to the point finance could not care less about the nations they are founded in or the people in those nations.
    Very true

    I wonder if any weapons manufacturer in any country would refuse to sell to someone willing to buy? I think most countries have laws that prohibit direct sales to potentially hostile countries. The interesting word in that last sentence is "directly" as there is always someone that will find a way if there is profit in it.

    I think many "dealers" hide behind "Guns don't kill, people do" but tend to forget that guns make it much easier than using a club.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    I wonder if any weapons manufacturer in any country would refuse to sell to someone willing to buy?
    I have heard that some Iranians visiting Norway recently were looking to buy parts for long range missiles. Somehow that failed. So there is some restraint or control - at least for high profile items.

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    iwananew10K is offline Titanium
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    "those who are sophisticated understand such things"

    is that what we are calling it now? being a greedy SOB is "sophisticated"??

    sure, it`s all for sale. if you have the cash it`s yours. exactly what`s wrong with our political ststem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BadBeta View Post
    I have heard that some Iranians visiting Norway recently were looking to buy parts for long range missiles. Somehow that failed. So there is some restraint or control - at least for high profile items.
    The fact that you heard about it could be a weighty reason for it not happening

    I wonder how things would go if Iran ordered it through a "neutral" country.

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    This thread is so far off track I'll throw in something that crossed my mind.

    The things happening in Afghanistan just now because some holy books (Koran) got burned is ridiculous. It wasn't the sensible thing to do but done is done. Apologizing is taken as a sign of weakness IMO.

    I don't remember any official apology from any government when flags get burned by the village idiots. At the height of the Danish Mohammed incident people that couldn't even read protested by burning just about every flag they could get their hands on. How mobs that couldn't read could understand a newspaper in Danish is beyond me! I noticed that the flags being burned was rarely even the Danish flag.
    Apologies by some were met with the demand for even more apologies. Our prime minister at that time (and now secretary general of NATO) flat out refused to apologize. Saudi Arabia and Egypt wanted the editor of the newspaper condemmed and put in jail. Try taking a Bible into Saudi Arabia and see what happens

    Mohammed Image Archive

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    Sadly people like small time seem to think that industry gives a shit about the nation...industry and the people who run it...and more to the point finance could not care less about the nations they are founded in or the people in those nations.

    It ruptures part of his capitalist meme.
    Actually "people like small time", could give a fuck about what you have to contribute to the debate, since your in prison.

    I still have yet to see evidence that major American companies were selling to axis powers while we had boots on the ground in the conflict.

    I grew up in Michigan, and it is /was a well known fact the Henry was an anti semite. Big deal. He also produced thousands of B-24s that laid waste to every German city there was and created the first fire storms for the fucking goose steppers.

    Was Standard Oil selling fuel to the Japs?, or the Italians?, or the krauts? We all KNOW that Debeers was selling thier wares to them.

    How about the Kennedy affiliation with the Nazis? Joe wasn't so tough with Adolph.

    Did any of the nation's unions have any dealings with these regimes?

    How about the other comanies mentioned in the hit piece that was listed. Who wrote those reports? What were their affiliations with the regimes in question?

    I'm tired of this shit.

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    Gordon,

    I don't really care about this, BUT...

    "At the height of the Danish Mohammed incident people that couldn't even read protested by burning just about every flag they could get their hands on."

    Listening to talk radio, tonight, I heard the same about the "apology" for burning the Koran. "Those ragheads didn't apologize for burning our FLAG!!!"

    First, it was "ragheads" in Muslim towns who were burning them, and it was military troops, government forces, who burned the Koran. That it was supposedly a "mistake", because they were burning "trash", why were the Koran IN the "trash"?

    More importantly, the USSC has ruled that it it is protected under the Constitution for a US citizen to burn our own flag. Why, if we can burn it, is it such a desecration for THEM to burn it? I don't think it would be legal, in the Military, to shoot one of them for it, just as any cop in he USA would be tried for knocking in the head of any redneck or YUPPIE who did it.

    As I said, it doesn't bother me.

    As to whether US mfgs. traded with our enemies in every war we have ever had, of course they have. Totally documented. Our Revolutionary War had British supporters hampering the "rebels". Benedict Arnold come to mind?

    George

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