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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 05-01-2008, 09:29 AM
Stainless
 
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Location: Boston,Mass.
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Default the fastest declining occupations

A story in today Boston Globe ranks model and patern makers #2 and Machine operator as #9 in the fastest decline for occupation. "Employment predictions from the US Bureau of Labor Statistics show that some occupations are expected to decline in the near future."
link to story http://www.boston.com/jobs/galleries...g_occupations/
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Old 05-01-2008, 10:37 AM
Cast Iron
 
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Interesting...

..and then are reports like the one in this thread-

Manpower says Engineers & Machinists hardest positions to fill

Just goes to show that 85% of projections statistics are can be contorted 60% of the time to refute 75% of figures reflecting 55% of what's actually going on in 4% of the economy at least half of the time anyway.
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Old 05-01-2008, 02:14 PM
Diamond
 
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Odd. I thought that "Bear Stearns Investment Banker"
was the fastest declining job catagory in the US right
now.

Jim
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Old 05-01-2008, 02:18 PM
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Along a related rate of decline would be the white, middle-aged male who enjoy or works with machinery and tools.
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Old 05-01-2008, 03:21 PM
Titanium
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrous Antiquos View Post
Along a related rate of decline would be the white, middle-aged male who enjoy or works with machinery and tools.

Ohh you can "enjoy" all you want, just do not expect to get paid very much.
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Old 05-01-2008, 05:43 PM
Titanium
 
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"enjoy" = your garage+your machines+your project.......
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Old 05-02-2008, 12:02 AM
Stainless
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hybidder View Post
Interesting...
..and then are reports like the one in this thread-
Manpower says Engineers & Machinists hardest positions to fill
.
This report was written by Manpower a temp company, Also this report was based on the need not excess
I think you would have a hard time shooting down the reason given for the decline for cnc operator
"Job outlook: The implementation of labor-saving machinery, the changing demand for goods, and foreign competition will all lead to the rapid decline of these types of job opportunities"

Quote:
Originally Posted by smallshop View Post
"enjoy" = your garage+your machines+your project.......
I do love spending time in my basement. me, my cnc and beer.....
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Old 05-02-2008, 11:24 PM
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I have been teaching 19 years or machining now, and have been told every one of those years that machinists are a dying profession. However, it seems that the forgotten aspects of this series of predictions have been:

1. Graying and retiring of the current workforce.
2. Changing skill sets of machinists.

My students get pretty good jobs if they want them. There are hundreds of machining jobs going begging in our area.

I think the job outlooks are created by those who would like us to be copy repair specialists, sales specialists for various companies, health care specialists, IT professionals (talk about a suddenly dying trade due to over saturation of the workplace). After all, everyone - it so seems - wants their kid to work in a place where they dress in a white shirt and tie.

I am fully cognizent that the "button pusher" who wants nothing else but a given life of doing nothing is a dying trade. However, the craftsman in any skill such as machining, HVAC, carpentry, automotive will always be in demand.

To expand more, I have a Masters Degree, but love what i do, and am proud of what I do as a teacher of machining (which is a high regard profession where i live - thanks to a great community and great school support). many other "professionals" think I am wasting my skills and degree, I think I am doing it justice and serving a craft i love dearly.
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Old 05-03-2008, 07:00 AM
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Default spope

I had the good luck of having a Machine Shop Teacher (Mr Koche) Who had a Masters, and was just a simple HS Machine Shop Teacher....ASFAIK only Masters in my HS...

Cutting gears and doing basic aluminum castings in HS is a Plus for anyone who does not want to wear a shirt and tie all day long...

This was in Everett High (WA) school near Boeing.... early 80's...

The training has stood me well since then... Up here in Alaska, VERY useful...

Nothing like getting a late afternoon Saturday call, to make something for an Alaskan Mythbusters show ....
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Old 05-03-2008, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spope14 View Post
1. Graying and retiring of the current workforce.
2. Changing skill sets of machinists.

My students get pretty good jobs if they want them. There are hundreds of machining jobs going begging in our area.
spope14 you live in New Hampster. That one of the area of the U.S. that had job grows from the mid 90's on. How many of the companies that are there now. Downsize and then moved to your state.
There where a total of 16 kids that are in the machine shop class at our local Vo-Tech. Thats not many compared to 25 years ago. How many of those kids do you think want to make maybe $12.50/hour to start. That what the wage is so the kid better live next door to the shop. At $3.50/gal for gas. You could spend your week just working for gas. There will always be a demand for cnc operator, dishwasher and parking lot attendants. But the # needed will be in the decline.
Due to lack of enrollment our local Vo-Tech is selling off it's manual machines.
http://boston.craigslist.org/sob/tls/665432381.html
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Old 05-03-2008, 05:37 PM
Hot Rolled
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BOSTON View Post
A story in today Boston Globe ranks model and patern makers #2
No kidding? Would Rapid Prototyping and CAD/CAM that take the finesse and art out of making molds have anything to do with this? That maybe we no longer need "specialists" for many routine "bread and butter" jobs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOSTON View Post
and Machine operator as #9 in the fastest decline for occupation.
At my last job my lab partner was an Instrument Maker. He used to run a shop. He told me, "Gene, any time that a human hand touches parts you lose money".

With that in mind, why would a business want a machine operator when a robot could pick up the "tombstone" and do the job instead?


Quote:
Originally Posted by BOSTON View Post
"Employment predictions from the US Bureau of Labor Statistics show that some occupations are expected to decline in the near future."
link to story http://www.boston.com/jobs/galleries...g_occupations/
A while back, in a somewhat frustrating and unhappy time known as the "1990s", a very good friend of mine assured me that IT and computer jobs would "never slow down" and would "at worst be stagnant". His confidence was based upon years of experience in the field.

Neither one of us could ever imagine a "Dot Com" bubble, created mostly because Americans were treating the stock market as a bank account, as were some well to do Asians. Clinton's talk of a "New Economy" put the Presidential seal on stock market speculation.

What we were not told at the time was that Asian currencies were under attack by the US. Probably because of dollar inflation but also because of predatory capitalism practiced by US big business. Clinton did nothing to stop these practices.

Clinton, for all of the talk of him being a "liberal" was very pro Big Business. His Secretary of Commerce, Ron Brown, flew all over the world with heavy hitters and high rollers negotiating trade deals with various countries. Ron died with his boots on in a plane crash over the Balkans, riding with some heavy hitters to negotiate still more trade deals. He did indeed take some people with him.

Friends of Bubba made a killing overseas, including Arkansas Mineral Fields in Congo who displaced Belgian based Grand Miniere after the evil Mobutu was replaced by the equally evil (but acceptable to liberals) Laurent Kabila. Pay no attention to the rumors of US Special Forces involvement and US logistical support for Kabila.

So things were tough overseas for non US people. Asians with money were parking their money into the US stock market. It was a "safe haven" for them. Stock prices started to inflate. People tired of puny returns from CDs started to park their money in Mutual Funds. The Fed had driven down interest rates under Bush Sr. and it was murdering savings interest rates. So the Munis got money and parked it in the market.

More cash in an economy leads to price inflation. No kidding.

People bought stocks on the expectation of IPOs or leveraged buyouts. They bought stock with infinite P/Es, stock that had never paid a penny in dividends but one day might be bought up by Microsoft or another heavy hitter. Where I come from this is called "Speculation". This further raised prices.

We were told that the Stock Market was "responding to the demands of the New Economy". To "sustain" this "New Economy" people had to "come up to speed" on the Internet and computers. There was serious talk of a "software crisis", with some talking of hiring musicians and "other non-specialists" to write code to sustain the "New Economy". Many specialists from overseas came to the US under the H-1B visa program to write code and design systems. Today they're doing the same things at home for their own domestic markets.

Things were great. Maybe the 1980s was the "decade of greed' but the 1990s were a decade of opportunity for everyone. So said Bubba.

The bubble started to burst in the late 1990s. The Asians were pulling their money out, things were straightening out at home. The pirates had taken their profits, in some cases were expelled and everyone eventually adjusted to the new rules of international commerce. I'm still waiting for the chickens to come home to roost on that one, as they surely will.

Ordinary Americans continued to speculate in the market. At one clinic were I worked the Medical Director spent ten minute breaks every hour in the break room watching the Stocks. He "made more money in the market than he did being a Physician". The man was day trading!!

The good times came to an end as Bush was starting. Sorta. The end of the world was coming on January 1, 2000 when all of the world's computers would quit, erase all records and we'd all die freezing in the dark. The Y2k crisis. Lots of displaced IT folks continued to work elsewhere "fixing" the bugs.

Were it not for the Y2K "crisis" that pumped a ton of money into the economy, sparing Bubba's "legacy" and shifting the resulting recession for the Dot Com bubble burst onto Bush Jr. we would have had a recession during Clinton's term. I am convinced that the Y2K "Crisis" was a scam.

We would later learn, during the Bush Administration, that there was no "new economy". Manufacturing work had been leveraged by imports from overseas or because ordinary workers were taking lots of OT.

By then a lot of IT people and computer programmers were working as security guards or other low paying occupations. Lots of foreigners went home, taking their skills with them.

The "Point" being that a lot of people went into IT and computer technology expecting to ride the wave... some did well, others crashed and burned.

You cannot predict the future based on the past. If people need something someone must make it. How they will make it will determine who gets hired and what they will pay.

Might be that machine operators will be in demand again for other reasons, maybe not.

Gene
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Old 05-03-2008, 07:38 PM
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Double post
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Old 05-03-2008, 07:41 PM
Stainless
 
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Boston, have to admit, that quite a few ikids here would like to make $12.50 an hour to start. The option is $5.15 to start at Walmart or maybe $7.00 for macs, or maybe $9.00 and crazy hours at the local supermarket. I am not exactly sure what your area options for students are, they must be quite excellant.

My area is not in the Golden Triangle of NH right above you, but in the Conn. River Valley. Companies like Hypertherm - rated the best company in NH to work for for years - unbtil they decided to pass on the award so others could have it. Also one of the best companies in the US. many like that in the area.

Our area is a bit depressed, but surely not the cost of living of Mass..

Declining numbers, maybe in some areas, but still there and opportunity tor progression is pretty fair, ask many of the managers of shops and major industries who were once students of mine, or the engineers at several area - region shops who started in the school machine shop.

The days of the button pusher / sand masher in the foundry / "put the part in the fixture" are gone - we have all known this since about 1980. It is the businesses that are proactive that will make it.
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Old 05-03-2008, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spope14 View Post
Boston, have to admit, that quite a few ikids here would like to make $12.50 an hour to start. The option is $5.15 to start at Walmart or maybe $7.00 for macs, or maybe $9.00 and crazy hours at the local supermarket. I am not exactly sure what your area options for students are, they must be quite excellant.
Our mim. wage in Mass is $8.00/hour. McD pays $10-$12 around here. South of Boston most shops have closed. There is still alot on the north shore
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Old 05-04-2008, 11:55 AM
Hot Rolled
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spope14 View Post
Boston, have to admit, that quite a few ikids here would like to make $12.50 an hour to start. The option is $5.15 to start at Walmart or maybe $7.00 for macs, or maybe $9.00 and crazy hours at the local supermarket.
Except for "Who wants to work in a.... factory?" I get those sneering looks from kids from time to time.

"Everyone knows" that to "make it" you have to do "office work". To do "office work" you have to "go to college".

When I tell them that I have an Associates and Bachelors and that you need both to get the best paying jobs in a factory, they get that "Oh my God!" look on their faces.

Maybe they ought to ask their school teachers how well they'd be doing if it wasn't for the National Education Association? I bet they wouldn't be making so much money and have tons of benefits for only nine months of work per year.

Damn, no wonder kids don't want "factory work", look who is giving them career advice - unionized white collar workers.

Gene
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Old 05-04-2008, 12:25 PM
Diamond
 
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"The good times came to an end as Bush was starting."

Yep.



http://www.worstpresidentever.com/

Getting back to the question of what to tell kids, I would tell them that they might
be able to get a job in a factory. IF they go to college first.

There are such huge changes in our economy right now that any advice one gives
to students will probably be incorrect in about ten years. So my specific advice,
would be to give no specific advice.

Jim
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Old 05-04-2008, 12:48 PM
Hot Rolled
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
"The good times came to an end as Bush was starting."

Yep.
If a dispassionate observer were to compare Bush Jr. and Clinton they'd observe damned little difference between the two.

Even with respect to Iraq. Everyone seems to forget "Operation Desert Fox".


Quote:
Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
Getting back to the question of what to tell kids, I would tell them that they might be able to get a job in a factory. IF they go to college first.

There are such huge changes in our economy right now that any advice one gives to students will probably be incorrect in about ten years. So my specific advice, would be to give no specific advice.

Jim
I'd advise any kid to learn Mandarin or Hindi so that they can talk to their boss. Given that so many in this country are either sleep walking or quitting on competing.

Gene
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Old 05-04-2008, 01:03 PM
Diamond
 
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Location: peekskill, NY
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Or spanish.

Yep gene, go ahead and google "worst president ever."

Sure it's evenly divided between clinton and W. If it makes you feel
happy.



http://www.rollingstone.com/news/pro...ent_in_history

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...120101509.html

http://harpers.org/archive/2008/04/hbc-90002804

http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2007/...lk_by_a_1.html

http://hnn.us/articles/48916.html



I keep scrolling down but I can't find your articles about clinton....

Jim
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Old 05-04-2008, 01:38 PM
Stainless
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneH' View Post
If a dispassionate observer were to compare Bush Jr. and Clinton they'd observe damned little difference between the two.
Even with respect to Iraq. Everyone seems to forget "Operation Desert Fox".
Gene
can't blame Bill for "Operation Desert Fox". he appoved the operation but did not plane or carry it out.
comparing Bush Jr. and Clinton they are not even a comparison. Just look at the Nation dedt. We will be paying for Bush JR for years to come. He is not half the man his father is. But I'll still take Bill over Geo JR. any day of the week. I'm an independant voter not a dem or a rep.
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Old 05-04-2008, 01:44 PM
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Default I saw the train coming

I am a goldsmith and carve patterns by hand that are later cast in gold. About 6 years ago I was at a trade show and they were demoing a small cnc mill with a cnc rotary table on it, it looked like a sherline but was called the model master well I said to myself that will never take off because you need to be a jeweler, a computer programer and a machinest to run it. At the time I was carving models for most of the shops in town I would carve 5 a day at 60-100 dollars each I was making alot of money. Well six years later I carved three for a shop last year and only because they needed them today and couldnt send them out. All the shops email the design to casting houses in New York and LA and a programer does the rest, the finished model is photographed and emailed back to the customer and upon approval the finished model is cast and overnited to the shop. Most of these shops have 10 of these machines running all day they do the work for 50 dollars and they cast it for 1 dollar and make money by selling you the gold that they use to cast it with. Next time I am going to get on the train and not jump in front of it.
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