Thread: A Fresh Start in Manufacturing?

Hi there,

I've been reading through the forum here, and I think you all might be able to help me figure some things out. I've read articles in the news about how manufacturing is bouncing back some from the past few years. All the articles about there being a skilled manufacturing shortage though are told from the POV of the employers, who are usually happy to have a larger labor pool (especially if it helps them drive down wages) . All the neutral economic reports seem to say differently though, that manufacturing isn't about to massively expand employment, and the wages aren't really high. Especially, if you figure they're skewed by older workers who were better compensated in earlier decades.

So my problem is this. While I'm not necessarily looking for a long-term career, I've been trying to figure out a way to earn a decent living in the short and medium term. I've been in and out of college for several years now, and although I have really good grades, the process hasn't exactly gone well so I'm still at least a year or two away from a degree. I'm still in my 20s, and a part of me would love to just become a machinist or an electrician. I really enjoy making things, I'm one of those people in love with quality, and the culture of the service sector can really get under my skin at times. What makes me hesitate is that when I research trade schools, I find they can be as expensive as 4 year colleges, and you may have even worse chances of finding a job.

So I was just wondering if I could pick your brains on a couple of questions. First, do you think manufacturing (or the skilled trades in general) is still a good career choice right now? Or should I probably go the college route if I can do well academically? Second, is getting a start in manufacturing relatively open and merit-based, does it depend on what trade school you graduate from, or do you need to know someone to get your foot in the door?

What do you consider a "decent living"?

Depending on the degree you want, I wouldn't quit college. A couple more years will go by quick.

Originally Posted by gearspin24

Hi there,

While I'm not necessarily looking for a long-term career, I've been trying to figure out a way to earn a decent living in the short and medium term. I've been in and out of college for several years now, and although I have really good grades, the process hasn't exactly gone well so I'm still at least a year or two away from a degree. I'm still in my 20s, and a part of me would love to just become a machinist or an electrician.

So I was just wondering if I could pick your brains on a couple of questions. First, do you think manufacturing (or the skilled trades in general) is still a good career choice right now? Or should I probably go the college route if I can do well academically? Second, is getting a start in manufacturing relatively open and merit-based, does it depend on what trade school you graduate from, or do you need to know someone to get your foot in the door?

You asked for opinions...so here goes...Stay in school. Get a part time job as an operator and see how it goes. The first half of your post leads me to think that you are either not willing, or not able to commit your full attention to school. Regardless which is the case, it does not bode well for a career in this field, IMO. This trade will pigeonhole you into an operator's slot if you are not committed to constantly learning to better yourself. If you are just looking for a paycheck for awhile then it could be a decent deal for you, but dont expect to make a great living being a warm body pushing a green button. The money, such as it is, will depend greatly on how deeply you choose to invest your time (years) and energy, to learning this trade. Low levels of commitment, energy, and enthusiasm will not get you very far up the food chain.

If you are willing to commit to it, it can be a lucrative profession, and very fulfilling.
IMO, If you aren't looking for a long term career in this field you should focus your energies into something else.

You also mentioned maybe becoming an electrician. I gave this advice to a young man I knew through the Volunteer Fire Service. If you wish to become an electrician,try to get into the Local Union's apprenticeship program. If accepted, you will not only learn a skilled trade, but if you decide to strike out on your own, the knowledge of more than just running romex in new or renovated housing stock will give you the chance to actually make it. You will know the codes for not only residential,but also commercial, industrial and telecom. He took my advice and parlayed that education 15 years later into a job as the Township Electrical inspector. The guy he replaced barely could tell a fuse from a ciruit breaker and was the cause of many a delay as more knowledgeble people had to overrule him. That guy was a inside appointee from many years ago and no one had the nads to replace him until he retired (thanks to machine politics). While many on this board have issues with Unions in General, you have to admit that their appreniceship programs in the skilled trades have a value that many schools no longer care to do. Not everyone is fit for College, despite what a lot of people think. Some like your self take a while to get through it (don't ask me how I know) others just go because they have no clue as to what they want to do and this is what they were told to do. Go into heavy debt and get a B.A. in something that will only earn you money if you then go and teach the same thing. (self-perpetuating uselessness) As for this trade, it went from full time, to on the side. Yes we need trained tool and die makers and all around machinists, but for every shop paying good wages for them ,there are many more who are only paying button-pusher scale and calling it top pay for a skill that deserves more. Some is the current economy and some is just greed, but the changing needs of manufacturing make it harder to fill as the younger replacements are not there,and the money is not as well.

Another nod for staying in school. I kick myself almost daily for dropping out of Engineering School in 1982. That said, I really enjoy my current job!

Mfg is on a LONG TERM DOWNHILL SLIDE... has been for 40 yrs or more....NEVER going to git any better.

STAY in school... LEARN about MONEY...... THAT's where the money is....

I would go the electrician route, an electrical contractor is not competing globally, just locally and starting an electrical contracting business requires less capital than a machine shop and charge about the same hourly rates. If you are good you should make bank, there are a lot of piss poor licensed electricians out there.

Originally Posted by John Welden

What do you consider a "decent living"?

I'm scrappy, and honestly for right now (within the next six months), I could probably get by on 12K a year. In the medium term, I would be more than happy with 40K by my early 30s. I really don't buy much, but besides worrying about the rent, what's frustrating is I can't even afford little hobbies like woodworking or building computers right now. Thanks for the advice.

Originally Posted by Chobyn

The first half of your post leads me to think that you are either not willing, or not able to commit your full attention to school. Regardless which is the case, it does not bode well for a career in this field, IMO.

I don't blame you for that impression. Actually, I've always loved learning things, becoming more capable in what I do, and I'm good at it. I'd prefer not to go into it here, but my problems with school aren't for lack of effort or bad performance. I'll just say college has been... bad for me psychologically.

Originally Posted by Chobyn

IMO, If you aren't looking for a long term career in this field you should focus your energies into something else.

I really want to thank you for this suggestion because people that give out education and career advice never bring this up. People talk about retraining like all you have to do is go to a couple of classes, and boom you're instantly successful in a new field. I've known a couple of people that started out in the trades that really wanted to go back to college and move into a profession. I wish society/schools/employers/somebody were a little more honest about exactly how much time you should be expected to invest in a career path.

Originally Posted by ARFF79

You also mentioned maybe becoming an electrician. I gave this advice to a young man I knew through the Volunteer Fire Service. If you wish to become an electrician,try to get into the Local Union's apprenticeship program.

I agree with you that apprenticeships can be a real leg up. Even more generally, this was why I wanted to ask about the importance of knowing someone to get a start. All the people I know that had opportunities in a trade (locksmith, auto mechanic, a filthy rich building contractor) got there by having someone that offered to employ them right away or even train them without trade school.

Originally Posted by ARFF79

The guy he replaced barely could tell a fuse from a ciruit breaker and was the cause of many a delay as more knowledgeble people had to overrule him. That guy was a inside appointee from many years ago and no one had the nads to replace him until he retired (thanks to machine politics).

Yup... that sounds like a government office.

Originally Posted by ARFF79

While many on this board have issues with Unions in General, you have to admit that their appreniceship programs in the skilled trades have a value that many schools no longer care to do.

I'll give you that, and I'll also venture my opinion that the problem has never been with unions in general, but how they're structured. My impression is that they're run a lot like political parties, but if they could somehow be more decentralized, I think it would be a lot harder to argue against their advantages. I'll have to look into this a little more though. Unfortunately for me, Texas isn't exactly a bastion of labor activism, but I think there are a few chapters in the major cities.

I wasnt trying to put you down in anyway, by the way. Just keep in mind the only impression I had of you is what you posted initially, so I was remarking on it from that perspective. It kinda fit the stereotype; 20something, school taking longer than anticipated, I am bright and learn quick blah blah blah. You don't need to justify yourself to me, or anyone else here for that matter, it is none of our business unless you make it part of the discussion. Wish you the best though, just go into it openminded and dont expect to rocket to the top of the foodchain.....it takes time, dedication to your employer/fello employees, but most of all it REQUIRES commitment to the trade. Without that, you would be wasting your time. That was all I was really trying to get at.

Originally Posted by aerodark

Another nod for staying in school. I kick myself almost daily for dropping out of Engineering School in 1982. That said, I really enjoy my current job!

Thanks for the suggestion. Based on everyone's advice, I'm thinking I should just put up with the BS and get a B.S. I wouldn't be so hard on yourself though. I know a lot of engineers that are really overworked, and paid on salary too, not hourly. Until now, most of my time in college has been either studying engineering or studying science in schools dominated by engineers, and I've noticed that they really do tend to have a distinct personality and worldview. If you don't fit in with that, even if you can do the work, you'll probably burn out, which is way more common for engineers and scientists than people realize.

Originally Posted by Gary E

Mfg is on a LONG TERM DOWNHILL SLIDE... has been for 40 yrs or more....NEVER going to git any better.
STAY in school... LEARN about MONEY...... THAT's where the money is....

I hope that somehow manufacturing does turn around in the future. If (really big if) the US made some deep changes to its trade policy and economic priorities (the German idea of kurzarbeit comes to mind), then I think manufacturing could come back strong. As for money chasing money, it's sad but true. Playing the stock market was actually the most money for the least stress I've ever made, but it wasn't close to enough to live off of. I only did it for a little while, and that was years ago before the bubble popped. Even if you have the funds, you have to be especially careful nowadays.

Originally Posted by Dualkit

I would go the electrician route, an electrical contractor is not competing globally, just locally and starting an electrical contracting business requires less capital than a machine shop and charge about the same hourly rates. If you are good you should make bank, there are a lot of piss poor licensed electricians out there.

Those are both really good points. I'm still a little hesitant because while I don't know if they were poor electricians, I've known some electricians that caught a bad break and wound up really poor.

Originally Posted by Chobyn

I wasnt trying to put you down in anyway, by the way.

I know, and I didn't take it that way, and to be fair, on paper I probably do fit the stereotype. Your response was really helpful though because I'm still not even really settled in one place, and your advice fits my impression that it's very helpful to be settled in a community to start a career in the trades.

Originally Posted by gearspin24

I'm scrappy, and honestly for right now (within the next six months), I could probably get by on 12K a year. In the medium term, I would be more than happy with 40K by my early 30s. I really don't buy much, but besides worrying about the rent, what's frustrating is I can't even afford little hobbies like woodworking or building computers right now. Thanks for the advice.

If you don't live in a crap part of the country, you can easily make $15 an hour without having a bunch of experience or training.

I still believe that if you're good at making stuff and motivated, you can have a good career as a machinist. It's harder now days, but America still makes a ton of stuff. It's not like there aren't any machine shops anymore.

One thing you could do on your own is get a student copy of Solidworks. It's probably the most popular CAD program machine shops use. You'd have a leg up over a lot of people if you had decent skills with it. Even if you don't go into machining, it's an amazing tool to know how to use. I don't think a lot people realize how insanely powerful it is and how relatively easy they've made it to use. I have a zillion hours on it and I'm still blown away.

You are academic and "really enjoy making things".

For many years I ran the engineering machine shop at the University of Maryland, it helped me become better skilled in many ways and compensate for my not going to college - you are exactly the sort of student I would hire and be happy to teach. I still have students who keep in touch with me, all feel they learned more in a year in the shop than four years of school. Second choice, get involved with a research project, choose carefully, many profs are just looking for a secretary.

When you graduate as a engineer with actual technical skills and experience you will have more value and choices than most grads, my students had job offers in R&D and manufacturing before they graduated unlike their unskilled peers.

If I were you I would look on campus or find a school that has a ME or Physics department with a staffed machine shop, get hired, stay in school, work hard and pay attention, the skills and knowledge you will gain will open many doors of opportunity to you - good luck!

Originally Posted by gearspin24

I hope that somehow manufacturing does turn around in the future. If (really big if) the US made some deep changes to its trade policy and economic priorities (the German idea of kurzarbeit comes to mind), then I think manufacturing could come back strong. As for money chasing money, it's sad but true. Playing the stock market was actually the most money for the least stress I've ever made, but it wasn't close to enough to live off of. I only did it for a little while, and that was years ago before the bubble popped. Even if you have the funds, you have to be especially careful nowadays.

I think hell freezes over before mfg comes back here... to many hoops to jump through here.

So you have some experience in stocks... agree thats a very difficult market to tame these days... You should try something a lot easier and more profitable... Futures..minie contracts that you get in and out of quickly and no waiting for settlement, that happens at the days close of biz. PM me if you want more info.

If I were you, I would become an Electrician, and THEN, I would specialize in rewiring OLD houses. NO modern Electrician wants to crawl through hundred year old attics, get DIRTY, and drop wires.

That means you own the business, you can charge more than them who Ad "10 receptacles or switches for JUST 99.99".

I wired one house, with my F'inlaw, many years ago. I asked him why he did not DO this work, HE said "Electricians do not DO this work!"

I said if they do NOT, he had the field to himself, what he charged was immaterial, as nobody else would bid,.

Forget it, I don't Do dirty work. They would all rather pull new wire than rewire an old house, for more money. THOUSANDS of electricians who can pull new wire in a new house, and you have to beat the other guy by 5 bucks to get the job.

George

Originally Posted by John Welden

It's harder now days, but America still makes a ton of stuff. It's not like there aren't any machine shops anymore. One thing you could do on your own is get a student copy of Solidworks.

That's a good point. As I understand, while employment has gone way down, if you're looking at output, America does still make a lot. Thanks for suggesting a trial copy of Solidworks too; it's something I could look into more. I've actually fiddled around with toolpaths in one of the free AutoCAD alternatives. I was interning in a university lab at the time, but our machine required its own software bundle with its own toolpath file format, and we didn't have the component to convert AutoCAD DXF files or the time to write the code ourselves.

Originally Posted by BGL

...all feel they learned more in a year in the shop than four years of school.
Second choice, get involved with a research project, choose carefully, many profs are just looking for a secretary. When you graduate as a engineer with actual technical skills and experience you will have more value and choices than most grads, my students had job offers in R&D and manufacturing before they graduated unlike their unskilled peers.

A...men to learning more outside of class; I've always preferred the library too for less hands-on stuff. I guess it slipped my mind, but our school does have a machine shop, and I do qualify for work-study so maybe they're looking for someone. Last time I was in class, I was actually studying and doing research in Materials Engineering so we had some impressive tools in the lab. A guy I knew needed to cut a solid bar of titanium alloy though, and he had barely nicked it after hours with our metal saw. He wound up taking it down to the campus shop, and if I remember right, he said they had a setup where they would run a current through a mounted tungsten filament to superheat it, cut through his titanium like a cheese-slicer... so yeah, the campus shops can be impressive. I don't know if it would be directly related to what I'm studying anymore though. As I kind of hinted in my reply to aerodark, I'm totally burnt out on science and engineering. If I'm not the one actually making or fixing something with my own hands, anything more technical than computer programming or pure math makes me feel like my soul is being sucked from my body.

Originally Posted by gmatov

If I were you, I would become an Electrician, and THEN, I would specialize in rewiring OLD houses. NO modern Electrician wants to crawl through hundred year old attics, get DIRTY, and drop wires.

That's an interesting point, and I'll keep it in mind. I wonder if some of it could be a kink in how the electrician market works though. I'm figuring that since houses that aren't finished yet are more open, running wire requires less awkward crawling and climbing around, which is harder as you get older. The younger guys on the other hand are more likely to still be training. If what you're saying is true though it does sound like an opportunity that electricians aren't exploiting. The master electrician could arrange the jobs and do the oversight, while apprentices or journeymen could do the wiring (and maybe earn a bonus for being the ones that get dirty? )

I'd train to become an electrician, why? because although the amount you'll make is around what a top CNC machinist would make, its very very very hard to send your job offshore

Wish I'd done it to be honest

Boris

Originally Posted by gmatov

If I were you, I would become an Electrician, and THEN, I would specialize in rewiring OLD houses. NO modern Electrician wants to crawl through hundred year old attics, get DIRTY, and drop wires.

That means you own the business, you can charge more than them who Ad "10 receptacles or switches for JUST 99.99".

I wired one house, with my F'inlaw, many years ago. I asked him why he did not DO this work, HE said "Electricians do not DO this work!"

I said if they do NOT, he had the field to himself, what he charged was immaterial, as nobody else would bid,.

Forget it, I don't Do dirty work. They would all rather pull new wire than rewire an old house, for more money. THOUSANDS of electricians who can pull new wire in a new house, and you have to beat the other guy by 5 bucks to get the job.

George

Finding GOOD Honest people to do "remodel" work is indeed difficult.

Bill