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  1. #41
    Ries's Avatar
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    Tax cuts dont create jobs. We have just had over ten years of the lowest income tax rates since before ww2, and most corporations pay far far less than Motion Guru does-
    Report Says 26 U.S. Companies Have Negative Average Federal Income Tax Rate - ABC News

    if low taxes, by themselves, created jobs, we would be awash in em.


    I am all with Jurgen, the OP- good training and education really helps. We need a nationwide effort to re-introduce trades programs to high schools, and to recreate trades high schools, and we need to do that in concert with both industry and government. Thats how they do it in places like Italy and Germany, and it works. Kids dont all go to college, and in places where you have vocational programs starting early, you get better trained kids who get jobs.
    I see some of that where I live. My kids attended 3 different high schools, and all had both in school vocational programs, with cnc machines, auto shops, welding, ag tech programs, and so on, and also "running start" programs that let kids take Community College and VoTech classes, in high school, and get both high school and college credit at the same time.
    This is a government program- these are local government community colleges, and they are taxpayer funded, taking kids from taxpayer funded public schools.
    And it works really well around here- all the local community colleges do it, and we also have a program that is trades oriented, with some of its own facilities.
    Washington Centers of Excellence > Our Centers > Marine Manufacturing & Technology

    I know, as an employer, I have hired kids from Bellingham Technical College, another government school that does a very good job of trades and vocational training.

    This is an overall investment that pays off.


    If you look at history, when the government just throws money around, of course its bad.
    But when there is focused government investment, it pays off in spades, and also, in jobs.

    Take, for instance, the Jet Airplane.
    The US government, using borrowed money (Debt) put hundreds of millions of dollars into the development of Jets, including paying for the development costs of the KC-135, and then buying 800 of em at full retail. There is no way Boeing could have financed the 707 without this- not to denigrate Boeing's big gamble on commercial Jets, but it just wouldnt have happened without government investment.
    The entire commercial air travel market as we know it- Planes, Airports, Air Traffic Control, Radar- its ALL government investment.
    And it has paid off many times over in tax revenue back to the government.
    But it would never have happened if the Feds hadnt targeted that industry, and spent hundreds of millions, if not billions, on it.

    Same thing lots of other things we take for granted- Government money spent, wisely, not only creates intitial jobs, but it creates jobs far into the future. All the dams in the Western US, which were actual creators of construction jobs, allowed many more jobs down the line. We have aluminum smelters in Washington State, for example. And large scale Agriculture where it could not exist without power and irrigation.

    The government has always been the initial buyer or at least payer, for CNC machine tools- the computer, itself, was a government investment, which has paid off a million times over. But all the big, expensive, slow, early CNC machines were for government contracts, and they were cost plus- if those companies had to buy those machines, and not be able to write them off in the contracts, they never would have done it on their own.

    Or, take the large presses- total government investment, still in operation all these years later, and still attracting work from around the globe.
    Heavy Press Program - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    There are tons and tons of technologies that we simply would not have, if not for US government investment- as I mentioned before, lasers, GPS, satellites, radar, and, of course, Tang.

    And once the government pays for em, they then get used by the private sector to create jobs.

    Was it really a bad idea to borrow billions, and build the interstate highways?

    Are there really NO infrastructure programs that we could be building right now, that would create jobs right now, and create business opportunities for decades to come, like the interstates?
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  2. #42
    Gary E is offline Diamond
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    Quote Originally Posted by 310 Guy View Post
    THIS!!!

    All of the others are really good ideas; I just like this one the best.
    You dont have kids do you... or a mortgage either... right???

  3. #43
    Miguels244 is online now Diamond
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe788 View Post
    LOL. If that chart actually continued on through 2013, I'm quite certain it wouldn't be saying what you think it's saying.
    Quote Originally Posted by smalltime View Post
    You'll notice his charts and graphs don't include the last three years..........
    Just sayin'
    Just sayin...


  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe788 View Post
    No. That 3.7 trillion is an estimate by an anti-war group, including estimates of all future costs, and some awfully generous estimates at that, considering timelines and withdrawals have changed significantly since that report was created. 10 years in, we were at 1 trillion.

    Pentagon Crosses $1 Trillion Threshold in War on Terror Spending - Bloomberg .
    That's lying with statistics. The $1.2/$1.6 trillion in the Bloomberg article is strictly the Congressional line item for War operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. It does not include procurement costs, contractors, procurement of replacement weapons systems, construction (of bases) and reconstruction (of Iraq and Afghanistan) costs... It also does not include non ‘war-related’ items such as intelligence (the CIA, NSA), ... Nor does it include long-term costs for Veterans Administration care, disability costs for wounded Iraq and Afghanistan veterans, ...

    The total cost of the war by overall Federal outlay, according to the Government Accounting Office and the Congressional Research service, is around $4.5 trillion so far:

    Economic Cost Summary | Costs of War

    Which is captured beautifully in this infographic -- The $1.3 trillion of actual combat spending is the tip of the proverbial iceberg:


  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalltime View Post
    Oooooooo,
    An Infographic..............that makes everything more believable.
    Bubba only understands it if it's a picture. Everyone else understands that $1.3 trillion is the raw cost of war operations without weapon procurement, contractors, construction, veteran's care...
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  6. #46
    jim rozen is offline Diamond
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    Wow smalltime. The neoconfederates jammed a 1.3 trillion dollar credit card bill up your ass and all
    you can say is "thanks?"

    And that's if it only is 1.3 trillion. As mentioned, it's more like four. So they jammed about three
    of those up your behind. So you should be tripply grateful! Please sir, may I have another!!

    Another war that wasted trillions, and was fought against a country that never did anything to us.

    Another war that was based on lies and deception.

    Another war that only made the world less stable, not more.

    Another war that was a miserable failure at accomplishing any of its objectives.

    Except, that is, spending up the american deficit. Is that your idea of fiscal responsibility?

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    Wow smalltime. The neoconfederates jammed a 1.3 trillion dollar credit card bill up your ass and all
    you can say is "thanks?"

    And that's if it only is 1.3 trillion. As mentioned, it's more like four. So they jammed about three
    of those up your behind. So you should be tripply grateful! Please sir, may I have another!!

    Another war that wasted trillions, and was fought against a country that never did anything to us.

    Another war that was based on lies and deception.

    Another war that only made the world less stable, not more.

    Another war that was a miserable failure at accomplishing any of its objectives.

    Except, that is, spending up the american deficit. Is that your idea of fiscal responsibility?
    Yea, Yea , Yea......

    I've been reading your anti war posts for three years, is that horse dead yet?

    Remember that most of your deadbeat democrat legislators voted FOR the war.

    Obama will bring all the troops home with a loss.......like he planned. THAT will make you feel better I'll bet.

    Keep living in your dream world where Sadam did nothing wrong, did not have WMD, did NOT gas his own people, did NOT gas the Iranian army, did NOT foment/bankroll terrorism worldwide. If that's what it takes to let you sleep at night.

    I'll sleep better knowing that folks like Sadam have assumed room temperature, along with Chavez, who we heard about tonight. But I'm sure you are of like mind with Shaun Penn with that news.
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalltime View Post
    Keep living in your dream world where Sadam did nothing wrong, did not have WMD, did NOT gas his own people, did NOT gas the Iranian army, did NOT foment/bankroll terrorism worldwide.
    But that's beside the point. We were arguing that Bush and Obama have added similar amounts to the national debt: $10 trillion and counting. Bush's $5 trillion (which extended deeply into Obama's tenure) included $4.5 costs in a useless war to enrich Halliburton.

    Yes, Sadam was a bastard, and he gassed the Kurds and the Iranian army, but there were absolutely no ties with Al Qaeda or 9/11, and there are plenty of other bad guys (Kim Jong-un, the warlords in Kenya, Ethiopia and Somalia). But they're not sitting on the world's second largest oil reserve.

    Cheney flat-out fabricated the aluminum centrifuge tubing. Which is why they had to out Valerie Plame as an undercover CIA operative, to punish her husband, the Amabassador sent to verify the claims that the aluminum tubing was really intended for gas centrifuges. It's also why Colin Powell resigned -- stating he was lied to about the legitimacy of the centrifuge tubes.

    Iraqi aluminum tubes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Ironically, after we had already invaded Iraq, Halliburton was charged with selling uranium centrfuge tubing to the Iranians. I mean, that was supposedly the case for war against Iraq, and the Vice President's company is selling the real deal to Iran.

    2. Halliburton Charged with Selling Nuclear Technologies to Iran - Project Censored | Project Censored

  9. #49
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    The very first thing one must remember is:"History has been, is and always will be written by the victor.
    The "Looser's" are called war criminals and deserve to die.The victors are called "Hero's" and get a medal.
    That was the case thru out history and will not change.
    Remember the old British saying going back to colonial time:" Right or wrong - MY Country!!

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    Here is a video that explains my point for training programs much better than I could ever do it. Is there something we in the US could learn and maybe
    adopt? If the solution for re-starting our manufacturing sector is already available - why are we still having all our politicians blabbing about? Look past the people and note the conditions at the factory facilities. I personally liked the pretty Lady CEO in the second half of the video.

    How Germany Became Europe's Richest Country - YouTube

    And here is another video on training. This from an US owned company - FORD-Germany.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxnJwacB6Mk

    Question: Does somebody know what Ford is doing as far as training goes here in the US?
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalltime View Post
    Yea, Yea , Yea......

    I've been reading your anti war posts for three years, is that horse dead yet?

    Remember that most of your deadbeat democrat legislators voted FOR the war.

    Obama will bring all the troops home with a loss.......like he planned. THAT will make you feel better I'll bet.

    Keep living in your dream world where Sadam did nothing wrong, did not have WMD, did NOT gas his own people, did NOT gas the Iranian army, did NOT foment/bankroll terrorism worldwide. If that's what it takes to let you sleep at night.

    I'll sleep better knowing that folks like Sadam have assumed room temperature, along with Chavez, who we heard about tonight. But I'm sure you are of like mind with Shaun Penn with that news.
    smalltime there have been times when I agreed with you but also more times where I have disagreed This post is one of those times where you get me very confused.

    I think most aren't sad (now there's an understatement) that Saddam was removed but I don't think many could have predicted that what followed would have caused the chaos that exists today. If your description of how he was as a leader was a justifiable reason for a war then I can think of many countries where the same should be done. Syria is a good example as several are now pressing for a military intervention to overthrow Assad. Like Saddam he should "go" but the very mixed "opposition" seem intent in establishing Sharia Law in the parts they "liberate".
    There might be some exceptions I can't think of at present but all brutal dictators have only been replaced by other brutal dictators. What's happening in several North African countries are good examples.

    Personally I'd like to see North Korea "put in place" but I can also imagine what the cost (both lives and money) would be.

    smalltime, wars are wars and I don't think whether the US president being Republican or Democrat had or has much to do with it.

    Gordon

  12. #52
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    Jeurgan,

    "Question: Does somebody know what Ford is doing as far as training goes here in the US?"

    Ford probably does what all mfgs used to. Hire in a warm body, and give them 2 weeks to prove they can keep up with the Line. This is not Computer Science.

    I would doubt that all German companies only hire Journeymen. Production lines do not require Journeymen. They are strictly warm bodies.

    Our problem, most likely, is that we insist on more and more production with no commensurate increase in pay. You charge 60 to 150 per, and it does not matter if, they do it in half the time, they get the same pay.

    George

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    I have a couple of thoughts/observations about jobs in the USA.

    I remember quite well when w bush was pushing his first tax cut package. The mantra at the time was that we need to cut taxes on the wealthy so they have the money to hire people. "The government doesn't create jobs, the private sector does". Now these same "conservatives" are bitching because Obama hasn't created enough jobs. You can't have it both ways.

    The other observation is about "jobs that Americans don't want". I can't think of a single job that wouldn't have lines of people lined up to apply if the wage was right. Do Americans want to work for the same wages as the citizens of Mexico do? Probably not.

    Take picking apples as an example. This is a job that I did when I was a teenager. It didn't pay all that well but I did it anyway. Now it seems that Americans don't want to pick apples for probably very low wages. The growers want to bring in foriegners to do this job. I would bet that if a person could make $10 or $20 a bushel for picking apples, there would be Americans lined up to pick them. You say that would drive up the price of apples. It sure would. It is called supply and demand.

    Big B

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big B View Post
    I have a couple of thoughts/observations about jobs in the USA.

    I remember quite well when w bush was pushing his first tax cut package. The mantra at the time was that we need to cut taxes on the wealthy so they have the money to hire people. "The government doesn't create jobs, the private sector does". Now these same "conservatives" are bitching because Obama hasn't created enough jobs. You can't have it both ways.

    The other observation is about "jobs that Americans don't want". I can't think of a single job that wouldn't have lines of people lined up to apply if the wage was right. Do Americans want to work for the same wages as the citizens of Mexico do? Probably not.

    Take picking apples as an example. This is a job that I did when I was a teenager. It didn't pay all that well but I did it anyway. Now it seems that Americans don't want to pick apples for probably very low wages. The growers want to bring in foriegners to do this job. I would bet that if a person could make $10 or $20 a bushel for picking apples, there would be Americans lined up to pick them. You say that would drive up the price of apples. It sure would. It is called supply and demand.

    Big B
    Right now in Washington State, growers have been paying $28 a Bin- which is a lot more than a bushel, but a good picker can pick a bin an hour. And they still cant get anybody but migrant workers (some legal, some not) to do the work.
    So Many Apples in Washington State This Year, So Few Pickers - WSJ.com
    They have had job fairs, nobody comes.
    Washington State is Desperate for Apple Pickers (Experience Preferred) | Fox News Latino

    and guess what- mexicans have been going back to mexico lately- there is actually a SHORTAGE of illegal workers in some areas. Especially in Agriculture, which is really hard work, low pay, no benefits, no job security.
    For first time since Depression, more Mexicans leave U.S. than enter - Washington Post

    There will always be a need for low paid grunt work. Our problem now is, during the recession, we lost a lot of good paying jobs- and the jobs we have been getting back are much lower paying.
    Majority of New Jobs Pay Low Wages, Study Finds
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    Right now in Washington State, growers have been paying $28 a Bin- which is a lot more than a bushel, but a good picker can pick a bin an hour. And they still cant get anybody but migrant workers (some legal, some not) to do the work.
    So Many Apples in Washington State This Year, So Few Pickers - WSJ.com
    They have had job fairs, nobody comes.
    Washington State is Desperate for Apple Pickers (Experience Preferred) | Fox News Latino

    and guess what- mexicans have been going back to mexico lately- there is actually a SHORTAGE of illegal workers in some areas. Especially in Agriculture, which is really hard work, low pay, no benefits, no job security.
    For first time since Depression, more Mexicans leave U.S. than enter - Washington Post

    There will always be a need for low paid grunt work. Our problem now is, during the recession, we lost a lot of good paying jobs- and the jobs we have been getting back are much lower paying.
    Majority of New Jobs Pay Low Wages, Study Finds
    Ries,

    Maybe they need to pay $100 or $500 a bin. Make apples the equivalent of caviar. At some point there will be pickers available. Simple supply and demand.

    Big B

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    Raul McCai is offline Plastic
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    The only things that government can do to create jobs are:
    1) get the hell out of the way of private enterprise by reducing the tax and regulatory environment
    and
    2) Perpetuating the only tax and spend economy that ever worked - and worked very well too. The military Industrial complex coupled with national security policy that required that Military stuff be made in the USA by US owned companies. Back in the1940s 1950s and 1960s even brushed into the 1970s the US taxed the people and gave a lot of that $$ to the military which in turn ordered all the stuff they needed from American manufacturers. The military had to make their stuff here for national security reasons and the USA very quickly became the best place in the world to make things. So the world beat a path to our factory doors, and American skilled tradesmen were able to earn a very good and secure living and if they wanted to, spend their whole careers in the same place while earning a retirement package.

    Those days are gone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raul McCai View Post
    The only things that government can do to create jobs are:
    1) get the hell out of the way of private enterprise by reducing the tax and regulatory environment
    and
    2) Perpetuating the only tax and spend economy that ever worked - and worked very well too. The military Industrial complex coupled with national security policy that required that Military stuff be made in the USA by US owned companies. Back in the1940s 1950s and 1960s even brushed into the 1970s the US taxed the people and gave a lot of that $$ to the military which in turn ordered all the stuff they needed from American manufacturers. The military had to make their stuff here for national security reasons and the USA very quickly became the best place in the world to make things. So the world beat a path to our factory doors, and American skilled tradesmen were able to earn a very good and secure living and if they wanted to, spend their whole careers in the same place while earning a retirement package.

    Those days are gone.
    You are apparently completely ignorant of the W.P.A. Works Progress Administration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The Govt. could (and once did) do that (and much much more) to create jobs.

    What is missing is the will to create jobs.

    Here are three surefire, non tax and spend, yet unpopular ways to increase employment: tax shipping, income-caps, 30 hour week.

  18. #58
    Miguels244 is online now Diamond
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    smalltime there have been times when I agreed with you but also more times where I have disagreed This post is one of those times where you get me very confused.

    I think most aren't sad (now there's an understatement) that Saddam was removed but I don't think many could have predicted that what followed would have caused the chaos that exists today.
    Gordon
    Actually General Powell predicted this, but since it conflicted with Rumsfeld he was summarily removed, leaving space for Haliburton et al to "make" some money.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big B View Post
    Ries,

    Maybe they need to pay $100 or $500 a bin. Make apples the equivalent of caviar. At some point there will be pickers available. Simple supply and demand.

    Big B
    In theory, I totally agree with you. And twenty eight bucks a bin aint much- a bin is 1000lbs.
    The problem is, the farmer is in the middle, too. Most farmers sell their crops, including apples, at fixed market bulk prices- which means that they cant pay reasonable wages, without getting more for their produce.
    The processors, and the distributors, and the retail chains all can, and do, raise prices on food all the time- and then tell the farmers that the "invisible hand of the market" sets auction and bulk prices, and the farmers have to eat it.
    Within 3 miles of my house, hundreds of acres of apple trees have been ripped out and burned in the last few years, as it cost more to grow apples than you made selling em. East of the mountains, its still barely profitable.

    This is just one more symptom of the real problem- we have plenty of income- this year, the DOW is at the highest level ever, Corporate Profits are the highest in history. Somebody is making tons of money- its just not workers. The food industry, as a whole, is very profitable. Farmers around here are usually in debt to the tune of a million or more. Ag wages are very low.

    The farmers I know who are doing a bit better all skip the corporate food distribution system, and sell direct, or add value. Which is hard, risky, and not what traditional farmers are good at.
    I know guys who have pooled their money and set up a cider line- apple cider pays ten times what bulk apples do. I know berry growers who own their own preserve plants. I know farmers who, in season, hire college kids and do 30 farmers markets a week, selling berries and produce for full retail.
    But most farmers are lousy businessmen, and its a huge undertaking to both grow food, and retail it.
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  20. #60
    Ries's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raul McCai View Post
    The only things that government can do to create jobs are:
    1) get the hell out of the way of private enterprise by reducing the tax and regulatory environment
    and
    2) Perpetuating the only tax and spend economy that ever worked - and worked very well too. The military Industrial complex coupled with national security policy that required that Military stuff be made in the USA by US owned companies. Back in the1940s 1950s and 1960s even brushed into the 1970s the US taxed the people and gave a lot of that $$ to the military which in turn ordered all the stuff they needed from American manufacturers. The military had to make their stuff here for national security reasons and the USA very quickly became the best place in the world to make things. So the world beat a path to our factory doors, and American skilled tradesmen were able to earn a very good and secure living and if they wanted to, spend their whole careers in the same place while earning a retirement package.

    Those days are gone.
    you are completely ignoring all the historic examples.

    First, there are the millions of Direct Jobs with the feds- you know, the post office, the military, the forest service, air traffic controllers, law enforcement, the judiciary, the CDC, and several dozen more- literally millions of jobs the government created.

    Second- I listed a bunch of examples of ways that, in the past, the government not only created jobs, but entire industries.

    Every single computer today exists because the government hired a bunch of scientists, and paid them to build prototypes, and develop incredibly expensive crude computers. Then the government paid private companies huge prices, that no consumer would pay, to build slightly better ones. For fifty years. Finally, after literally billions of dollars of federal money, IBM came up with a "home" computer. NONE of the jobs at any computer company today would exist if the government hadnt spent that money.

    Same thing with a dozen other technologies, and whole industries, that we depend on.

    Did you just completely ignore my whole post about Boeing and Jet airliners?

    The government can, and does, spend money on technologies and infrastructure than nobody else can afford, or is willing to take the risk on, and not all of those gambles pay off. But many have.

    I say this over and over again. I link to websites. I list category after category where facts and history are self evident.
    And then people quote some tired old Rush Limbaugh mantra like "the government cant create jobs".

    Oy.
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