Correct. That is why it is disgusting to hear big corps. complain about taxes.

Also, the high tax figures they quote are usually BEFORE any deductions. The REAL tax rate(amount) is what you end up paying AFTER deductions,etc. are figured in. In the case of many big corps. that brings their REAL tax rate to zero or better.

SM,

I would about bet you that the only tax proposal that was not totally written BY a gang of Lobbyists was the one out of anger a few weeks ago that was proposed BY Congress to tax at 90% the bonuses paid to the people at AIG who were major players in getting us to where we are.

THAT went nowhere. We have a Constitution that bans unequal taxation. Punitive taxation.

10% would come nowhere near our tax needs. You would be well up past 25%. When you add that Japan is the only country that taxes Corps at a higher rate than the US does, you must remember that they have medical care paid for and we do not. They might have X % added to cover that.

I am sure that their "corporate income tax" includes that. Most other Industrialized countries also have "Socialized" health care. Their corporate income tax helps to pay for that.

Here we have nearly 50 million with NO health insurance, and you can argue till you are blue in the face that MOST of them don't WANT health insurance, because they are young and healthy.

We have more uninsured than any other industrialized country in the world. People, here, think that we always take care of our own. We do not. Latest issue, Washington Monthly, says that of all our "non-profit" hospitals, less than 1/5 of them provide 78% of the "charity" aid. The others get "non-profit" tax status yet provide NO aid to the poor or indigent.

Every mfg here figures in his total tax burden when he sets a rate for ANYTHING. You don't say, "Ah, shit, I forget to figure in that I gotta pay INCOME TAX on what I charged that guy to do that." And then you try your damnedest to minimize the tax you have to pay on that gross that the charge was based on.

If you don't like paying tax on your gross, get out of business. Go get a job where someone else has to dick around with that. THEY have to do the same..

It is amazing that small shop owners, one man, who make a few bucks as a side job are SO Rep that they bitch about paying their taxes on additional income.

Cheers,

George

I don't know how many of you people actually own/owned a business.
I did.
Taxes for me as a business worked like this.
Taxes do not go into the cost of any job.
All profits that the company made were not taxed at corporate level.
The Business paid NO Taxes. (S-Corp)
The business profit was moved over to my personal taxes as income and I as an Individual payed taxes. I know some here will whine, but too much in my mind. So much so I said screw it and sold the business. I could get what I needed to live the rest of my life without working after selling the biz.
Now the new owner pays less than 1/10 of what I did for taxes, so the gov. lost income on that deal.
A perfect example of the Laffer curve.

klunker,

Of course taxes figured in your business rates. You knew how much money you wanted to make, you knew how many hours you were likely to book, you knew your expense for energy, tooling, material, cost of the machines themselves, and you knew that making XX dollars would be liable to a tax of XX on your net.


In that circumstance, your rate was set to cover the tax, whether S-corp or traditional Corp.

You paid taxes at your individual rate. If you did not allow for the increase in income raising your personal tax bill, I can see why you would throw in the towel and sell out.

Cheers,

George

NO, I did NOT figure tax rates in my costs.
Cost + desired profit = quoted cost.
Thats it, taxes were not added.

I was profitable in every year I owned the business (over a dozen years including 9/11). I had net profits from a low of 8 to a high of 68%.
I am sure your much wiser than me and you have a better way but it worked for me.

I paid in 7 figures in taxes in the last 2 years, at that point it was not worth the grief to put up with customers and employees and see the gov. take such a large chunk. I worked very hard for over a decade to get to that point. No vacations, working a min of 60 hrs/wk and still taking home less than most of the employees, risking EVERYTHING I owned on the business. I left all the profits in the business and grew it 6 times in gross sales from what it was when I bought it. I paid off my all my debt early, I bought new equipment and faculities, paid for 100% of my employees health ins, had a 401K and matched funds to 4%. And I put up with crap all along the way.

Income taxes are almost 3 times as much as Cap. Gains tax rates. So it was the best thing for me to cash in and get out of the rat race.

The problem is taxes are too high. The top 2% of the earners pay 60% of the taxes. over 40% pay no taxes. This is a bad situation.
The gov. has gotten to big, politicans are getting too powerful. Bush was a disaster with his deficit spending. Obama makes him look like a tight wad. Obama is going overspend in 1 year more than bush did in 8 years. At some point this has to stop.

People with high incomes and businesses have more options. If I wanted to I could of lowered my profits by spending differently. Companies can move.
The Goverment should be encouraging and helping businesses and business owners. If there is minimal rewards they won't take the effort/risk.
Chase away the chickens and nobody is going to have any eggs to eat.

Slicerman, I'll make it easy for you. Read Anthem ('cause it is short) and If you didn't get enough, read half of Atlas Shrugged. If you can't get what she is trying to say by then, I can't help you.

This isn't meant as an insult to you, more of Ms. Rand's writing style. Her philosophy has merit, and is debatable, but I swear Atlas could have been half as long to get her point across. After that, I never looked at The Fountainhead, it might be better than Atlas, but I'll never know.

Of course, I'm always open to people reading, so go for it at your own peril.

Why is everyone on this forum always talking about taxes?! How about making chips and solving real/fun problems?

Start another forum/site called FixatedOnTaxes.com or something ... geesh

Here Here!!!! Thanks for that rkward.

I suppose this is a shining example of America's obsession with money.

I must admit though, that klunker's story is very informative and provides much food for thought. Some businesses are happy to remain small, but why penalize those that are interested in growth? Remember that klunker's business provided opportunities for people besides himself. There's a lot to be admired in that.

Thanks for the references. I just read Rand's Wikipedia page and she was certainly an interesting person. Hope to read some of her stuff soon.

Why not?

They have the highest incomes and control a proportion of America's wealth similar to the 60% tax figure you state. Wealth? Cash, land, real estate, private jets, majority voting stocks in corporations that have paid them tax exempt earnings and allowed reduced capital gain taxes for years via BushII.

The top 5% of taxpayers has seen their income double since the late 80's. Mine surely has not.

Why should they pay less in taxes. Their 'high' tax rates does not seem to impede their abilty to earn and increase income. They also enjoy safety for their oversea's investments via a standing army (or police force) that has for decades marched to protect their assets in this country as well and insurance guarantee via our governemnt for their oversea's plant & equipment.

Feel sorry for the top 2% who pay a lot in taxes, not really. They have been gaining from their position.

I'll make it simple. They enjoy the benefits of operating here.

Fire protection
Police protection
Military protection
Educated workforce
Legal address of wrongs

The list is quite endless.

That is really like asking, "Why should anyone pay taxes?" It is kind of needed. Wish it wasn't, but it is. Someone has to, they might as well pay also.

Jeff

I'll take a stab at this one just for fun. Corporations are taxed on PROFITs as an incentive to not actually make a profit/hoard money. High corporate tax rates are an incentive to SPEND THE MONEY, hire more people, buy more equipment, maybe donate something, quarterly corporate meetings in Barbados.

It doesn't matter whether you choose to remain small or grow. EVERYONE should pay their fair share. Being big with political influence shold not alter anything. The middle class caries the tax burden not the corporations --- corporations lie and do not pay a fair share.

Admiration has nothing to do with paying a fair share.

I think there is a world wide obsession with money --- it's part of the problem we need to solve. America is a great place --- but there is greed here as there is ALL OVER THE WORLD. It's one of those stupid human things -- GREED ---- so don't single out AMERICA we are not the only folks to be criticized.

Who is "THEY" ?
Is "THEY" the piece of paper that says a corporation exists.
No. "THEY" are the owners. They are the individuals who get the fire and police protection etc. 1 owner or a million stock holders...it doesn't matter.
Every individual should pay tax.
Because, really, only an idividual can benifit from the endless list of benefits you are talking about.

SM

You're probably correct in that she laid out her philosophy in the first half, but she had to make it interesting too, hence the longer book. Plus, she needed extra pages for all the neat sayings. My favorite:

"So you think that money is the root of all evil? Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?"

This quote seems to be what many people on this board are always ranting on about with the "service economy." BTW, the context was discussing a steel company.

You commonly hear people ranting on and on about Ayn Rand being crazy, but few people have ever actually read her books or essays. Most of it is simple common sense.

I'm not declaring any political agenda, as there are flaws with her thinking, but don't be so quick to thrash what you haven't read for yourself.

Henry

I have never known anyone who could read half of Atlas Shrugged and then simply put it down without reading the rest.

In her letters to the agent who represented her, she admitted that she had a problem in her writing style. She was never sure whether she had made a particular point or needed to go over it again in a different way. She DID know from the beginning that she wanted to write that particular novel on two levels. One level was to be an interesting and exciting story that any reader could become involved in and enjoy, but the other level was to explain and promote her point of view. Those uninterested in the latter would still be rewarded for reading her book by the former.

I disagree with her atheism, but it's quite understandable, given her early years in a society that detested all religions to the point of establishing museums and institutions for the explicit purpose of cranking out little statists and atheists. Rather funny to read her correspondence from those early years in this country. It was during a time when Christianity was not accostomed to defending itself as it is now, and she was having a field day ripping into some of the evangilists who were least prepared to defend themselves on an intellectual level. She may have done some of them a favor and sent them back to school.

Suffrice to say that some time ago a survey was taken and the number one and two answers to the question;

What book as most changed your life?

were;
1. The Bible
2. Atlas Shrugged

When I used to do the shows at Quartzite Arizona, I would buy up copies from the used book vendors and give them to people who showed signs of having a functioning brain. Got a lot of thanks but also a lot of curses from those who stayed up all night reading and were groggy the next day.

Of course, Stan hates the book, the author and the philosopy, but then, what better recomendation could one ask? I understand that sales are doing very well just now on that book. Small wonder! The story line is playing itself out today!....Joe

Some "survey". One can find the results at: http://lifehacker.com/397394/the-boo...ged-your-lives

If you want to push Rand's religion then you need to realize a couple of things.

1) You can only have one Master. Choose, for you cannot follow both, as they are mutually exclusive.

2) If you try to use the results of a "survey" make sure it has reliability and validity. Keep in mind I am a professional researcher with numerous research based publications. Consequently I can spot BS from a mile or more away. This one is extremely putrid.

For a list of 100 Most Influential Books Ever Written go to:

http://www.interleaves.org/~rteeter/grtinfluential.html

Surprisingly no mention of Rand!