Thread: The Logic behind Dismembering Public Employee Unions

Originally Posted by smalltime

That's what I was when I was an hourly employee.....what's your point?

I was wondering too as to the point LOL

George has many opinions but the big problem I have with almost all of them is that he likes to present them as facts.

I put him in a box a while ago and marked it:

THERE ARE TWO WAYS TO DO THINGS. GEORGE'S WAY AND THE WRONG WAY.

Ain't it great to always feel you know you are right Hell the man even wrote in one post that if he felt threatened by me (taller, more agile?) that he carried a gun. All that means is that if I lived next door to him I'd be able to carry a bigger gun than him LOL

The thing I like most about George is that he makes me feel that I'm much better than I probably am

Law of Jante - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gordon

Originally Posted by JoeFin

The Logic behind Dismembering Public Employee Unions

Can’t say I disagree at ALL with anyone saying we need to reduce the deficit and rein in Government spending. So …

The Logic behind going after the Public Employee Unions
Public Employee Unions are paid for by the public Tax coffers and they in turn then use a portion of their money (Union Dues) to bargain for “Higher Wages”.

OK – so now lets apply that to ALL folks on the “Tax Coffer’s Tit”

ADM – Lobbying for Farm Subsidies

Lockhead Martin – Lobbying for lucrative Defense Contracts

Oil Producers – Lobbying and successfully obtaining $Billions in Tax Credits for Oil Exploration

Haliburton – No Bid / Black Check contracts in Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Katrina Relief effort.

Wall St Banks –

I guess my question here is “Why go after the little Guy?” when we know full well they will only be replaced by New Private Sector Corporations that will then use portions of the Tax Coffer Funds to Lobby / Support politicians that will then hand them “Fat Contracts”

You don’t even want to compare the $Dollar amounts between what the “Fat Cats” are being handed and the total amount spent on education. In fact State Education spending is “Small Potatoes” compared to what these guys are getting.

And then of course if you even suggested applying that same logic on these guys you would be threatened with a Multitude of Lawsuits from the most prestigious, “High Dollar Law Firms” the corporations could muster

because all of us " little guys" cant come together and realize we outnumber all the 1%s. who is this DICK CHENEY??

Employee at will means they can come in and tell you to pack your gear, as they do with Bosses, and we will escort you out the door, right now.

" Oddly enough the same people feel it is not "fair" for the employer to fire you without cause, feel it is completely fair for the employee to QUIT without cause or notice."

Oddly enough, it is enough of an issue that posters, HERE, have asked if they SHOULD leave before the end of a 2 week Notice, so, no, I don't think it is the habit of WORKING MEN to leave at a moment's notice, no "I QUIT!!!", which I could understand. If you are So pissed off, you just tell them to go to hell, you are GONE!!

Corny,

"I don't see the problem with this. The only protection a union offers is establishing a firing order-- last hired, first fired. I don't like that. should be "worst hire, first fire".

AND, a NON-UNION shop will do the same thing. It may be formalized under a UNION, but a sole proprietor will do the same thing. I do not think you are going to hire a 20 YO who will be so much better than the guys you already have, that you will weed out the older guys. For ONE, you might get an Age Discrimination Suit against you, and I know you don't want to go to Court..

Fuck, I wound up with a Boss who was a Sewer Expert, before I retired, BECAUSE they laid off a bunch of old fart Engineers. He and a few others threatened to sue, he became MY Boss. He had not one mechanical bone in his body. BUT, he was rehired as my Boss. He actually got escorted out a few years after I retired. Literally! Guards escorted him to his office, checked what he put in his box, escorted him to the gate. Sayonara.

Corny,

""worst hire, first fire".

I think I said, somewhere, that UNIONS give the CO 90 days to test an employee. Worst hire SHOULD have been fired IN that 90 days. AFTER that, they are full UNION members, and protected. I am sure you are aware of all the Co's that give people 90 days, and, I think there is an example above, fire them on Day 89, rehire them on Day 91, start all over.

We had one, LOVED being a permanent temp. Haven't heard from him for a few years. Adamant. This is going to be FULL TIME!!

IF you are one of them OWNERS who doesn't like that, I doubt that you are UNION, you can fire whomever you please. If you ARE a UNION member, and you are pissed off that YOU could be laid off before that 60 YO fart that can't hold a candle to you, remember, you SHOULD be making enough that you SHOULD, if you are at ALL conservative, be able to weather 6 months of Unemployment.

I have never NOT had a cushion to fall back on. Perhaps you spend as fast as you earn.

Gordon,

You are, from your pic, bigger than I. Were you to be my neighbor, and I felt threatened by you, and YOU would have to make the threats. You make a big deal that I had to walk back up to the Garage to retrieve my pistol. It is not good to leave that where someone could access it. It IS mine, after all.

I am so sorry that you and most of Europe can shoot airguns, but nothing more.

"Quote Originally Posted by smalltime View Post
That's what I was when I was an hourly employee.....what's your point?
I was wondering too as to the point LOL

Gordon,

You are so full of it. You grab talking points and make ha ha's out of them. You are SO goddamned GIGGLY!!! You ALWAYS have a comment to make, often at my expense. I do not really mind, just, TRY to make a rational commend, don't just take hacks at me, make a pertinent comment

I don't know if it is JUST because you ARE where you are, or if that is just your nature.

I don't think I like you. You are too glib. TOO businesslike..

George

George I wouldn't poke fun at you if you didn't give me so many opportunities.

Originally Posted by gmatov

Gordon,

You are, from your pic, bigger than I. Were you to be my neighbor, and I felt threatened by you, and YOU would have to make the threats. You make a big deal that I had to walk back up to the Garage to retrieve my pistol. It is not good to leave that where someone could access it. It IS mine, after all.

Where the hell have I written that you'd have to walk to your garage or anywhere else?

I am so sorry that you and most of Europe can shoot airguns, but nothing more.

George it's ok to be ignorant (no one knows everything) but have you any idea how many weapons get made in Europe? I can't remember the last time in Europe that bows and arrows were used in a war LOL I'd also suggest you take a look at which countries win the most medals in shooting competitions - for example the winter olympics.

"Quote Originally Posted by smalltime View Post
That's what I was when I was an hourly employee.....what's your point?
I was wondering too as to the point LOL

Gordon,

You are so full of it. You grab talking points and make ha ha's out of them. You are SO goddamned GIGGLY!!! You ALWAYS have a comment to make, often at my expense. I do not really mind, just, TRY to make a rational commend, don't just take hacks at me, make a pertinent comment

I don't know if it is JUST because you ARE where you are, or if that is just your nature.

I don't think I like you. You are too glib. TOO businesslike.

I think it'd worry me if you wrote you like me

George

I think the biggest differences between us are:

I'm almost always in a good mood.
I have a sense of humour. Proof? I keep reading your posts
I enjoy my life.
I'm not envious of anyone that has more than me.

George, have you any redeaming features you'd like to share with us?

Gordon

Gordon,

I'd hate to end this thread. It is so amusing.

Way back then, remember, I had to leave my car at the "garage", the repair shop a couple blocks away from my house. They were still there, after hours, working on the younger son's truck. I walked the couple blocks downhill to my house, went inside, felt for and did not find that pistol. "Oh, shit, I cannot leave it in the car, what if it is stolen?" Serious problems, here. New laws have been proposed for theft or loss, besides the expense.

SO, since I have become quite sedentary since I became disabled, 9 years ago, the walk back UP the hill, after the walk down the hill, and again down the hill rather pooped me out. I am not at ALL in any kind of shape. I know it is not manly to say you do not think you can whip anyone you meet up with, but I am becoming wimpy in my old age and infirmity.

I am not crippled, per se. I simply cannot do what I used to do. I cannot lift much, without intense pain. I don't look for sympathy, but I would like to help my kids more, physically, although I do teach them HOW to do things. I can still instruct them as to wiring, carpentry, etc.

I think I am going to have to split up my machine tools, woodworking to one S'inlaw, metal to the other, get them out of my garage, let me put my car inside. Then, too, maybe the little Chinese tooling goes to the boy with my 2 g'sons, young enough to learn, old enough to learn safety. Probably the best thing to do. I am close enough to be there everyday to give them time on the machines. (I have 4, but 2 are of teachable age)

"but have you any idea how many weapons get made in Europe? "

What in the WORLD does that have to do with you not owning firearms? That you have Championship Marksmen, who must have permits to transport to the shooting range does not give you freedom of ownership.

The US is probably the only country in the World that allows private, almost unrestricted ownership. You must be shown to be ineligible to possess one to be denied.

One of the differences between us is that you are ALMOST always in a good mood, I always am. I am not even pissed off when I post here. My words are in the ether. They mean nothing. So why should I be pissed?

I don't know if you have a guaranteed income. I have. I never have to worry that I will fall short, I never have to worry that my sales have fallen, and i don't know that you do either. I thought you had guaranteed income at 65. I don't travel, and you do, so maybe that is the difference.

"Hell the man even wrote in one post that if he felt threatened by me (taller, more agile?) that he carried a gun. All that means is that if I lived next door to him I'd be able to carry a bigger gun than him LOL (sic)"

If you lived here, yes you COULD. Since you live where you do, no you can't. I threaten no one. I am rather puny in my old age, less machismo than you. Do you work out? I don't and can't, so you wouldn't, if there were warning, take me out.That is all I am saying. I try to protect myself. It may not be enough.

"if he felt threatened by me (taller, more agile?)'

Why in the WORLD would I feel threatened by you, if you moved next door? I have lived here all my life. New neighbors HAVE moved in, lots of my old ones have died. That comes with age. All my neighbors to date have been fine, and that is probably more to do with how I treat them, not as strangers, than that they are aliens. How you interact with neighbors is the way they will react to you. One wants to buy one part of my property to build on. I cannot sell him it, as it is supposed to go to my kids when I die, THEY may sell it, they won't want to live in my house, though it is better than 2 of 3 have. It will be sold and split 3 ways.

Were you to move in next door, I doubt you would be threatening. THEN, we might become friends. So long as you are THERE, and making the comments you are, no, we could not agree on anything.

Hell, we might even go shooting. I could sponsor you for my gun club. Be advised, all I shoot, anymore, is black powder. All my centerfire weapons have sat in the gun cabinet for years.

All this is theoretical.

George

Corny,

"I don't see the problem with this. The only protection a union offers is establishing a firing order-- last hired, first fired. I don't like that. should be "worst hire, first fire".

AND, a NON-UNION shop will do the same thing. It may be formalized under a UNION, but a sole proprietor will do the same thing. I do not think you are going to hire a 20 YO who will be so much better than the guys you already have, that you will weed out the older guys. For ONE, you might get an Age Discrimination Suit against you, and I know you don't want to go to Court..

Fuck, I wound up with a Boss who was a Sewer Expert, before I retired, BECAUSE they laid off a bunch of old fart Engineers. He and a few others threatened to sue, he became MY Boss. He had not one mechanical bone in his body. BUT, he was rehired as my Boss. He actually got escorted out a few years after I retired. Literally! Guards escorted him to his office, checked what he put in his box, escorted him to the gate. Sayonara.

Corny,

""worst hire, first fire".

I think I said, somewhere, that UNIONS give the CO 90 days to test an employee. Worst hire SHOULD have been fired IN that 90 days. AFTER that, they are full UNION members, and protected. I am sure you are aware of all the Co's that give people 90 days, and, I think there is an example above, fire them on Day 89, rehire them on Day 91, start all over.

We had one, LOVED being a permanent temp. Haven't heard from him for a few years. Adamant. This is going to be FULL TIME!!

IF you are one of them OWNERS who doesn't like that, I doubt that you are UNION, you can fire whomever you please. If you ARE a UNION member, and you are pissed off that YOU could be laid off before that 60 YO fart that can't hold a candle to you, remember, you SHOULD be making enough that you SHOULD, if you are at ALL conservative, be able to weather 6 months of Unemployment.

I have never NOT had a cushion to fall back on. Perhaps you spend as fast as you earn.

[/quote]

I probably woudln't find a 20 something better than the guys I already have... BUT, maybe five years later, that 25-something is pretty damned good, learning alot... then I got the 55 something who does enough to get by, hasn't learned anything new or expressed an interest in doing it... perhaps then I might like the flexibility to cull the heard as I see fit. Otherwise, you end up in a place where, through layoff cycles, everyone has less than 3 years experience, or 20+ years experience... not a good situation.

I've got enough liquid I'd be just fine for several months with no income. Bored as hell, maybe... messing about in my personal shop isn't cheap. Maybe I'd have to take that plunge and work for myself.

One of us should write this so I'll do it
WARNING - this post has NOTHING to do with the thread.

Originally Posted by gmatov

Gordon,

I'd hate to end this thread. It is so amusing.

It isn't the thread that's amusing. It's either you or me or both of us.

Way back then, remember, I had to leave my car at the "garage", the repair shop a couple blocks away from my house. They were still there, after hours, working on the younger son's truck. I walked the couple blocks downhill to my house, went inside, felt for and did not find that pistol. "Oh, shit, I cannot leave it in the car, what if it is stolen?" Serious problems, here. New laws have been proposed for theft or loss, besides the expense.

SO, since I have become quite sedentary since I became disabled, 9 years ago, the walk back UP the hill, after the walk down the hill, and again down the hill rather pooped me out. I am not at ALL in any kind of shape. I know it is not manly to say you do not think you can whip anyone you meet up with, but I am becoming wimpy in my old age and infirmity.

I am not crippled, per se. I simply cannot do what I used to do. I cannot lift much, without intense pain. I don't look for sympathy, but I would like to help my kids more, physically, although I do teach them HOW to do things. I can still instruct them as to wiring, carpentry, etc.

I think I am going to have to split up my machine tools, woodworking to one S'inlaw, metal to the other, get them out of my garage, let me put my car inside. Then, too, maybe the little Chinese tooling goes to the boy with my 2 g'sons, young enough to learn, old enough to learn safety. Probably the best thing to do. I am close enough to be there everyday to give them time on the machines. (I have 4, but 2 are of teachable age)

What that has to do with anything escapes me. I don't even get "I have 4, but 2 are of teachable age". Since when was anyone or anything too young to be teachable?

"but have you any idea how many weapons get made in Europe? "

What in the WORLD does that have to do with you not owning firearms? That you have Championship Marksmen, who must have permits to transport to the shooting range does not give you freedom of ownership.

The US is probably the only country in the World that allows private, almost unrestricted ownership. You must be shown to be ineligible to possess one to be denied.

OMG. OK, once again for you. I have nothing against guns. I'll try and spell this out for you as simply as I know how. I wouldn't want to live any place (in fact I'd flat out refuse) where I felt it was necessary to have a gun for protection. I even live in a part of Denmark that has many hunters. They don't hunt each other or even humans in general. The deadliest weapon almost everyone in Denmark owns is an automobile

One of the differences between us is that you are ALMOST always in a good mood, I always am. I am not even pissed off when I post here. My words are in the ether. They mean nothing. So why should I be pissed?

I'm reading that as you feel you can write drivel as long as you don't actually mouth it. I write exactly the same as I'd say.

I don't know if you have a guaranteed income. I have. I never have to worry that I will fall short, I never have to worry that my sales have fallen, and i don't know that you do either. I thought you had guaranteed income at 65. I don't travel, and you do, so maybe that is the difference.

Yes I have a guaranteed income. We own our house. We each have a car. If either of us get ill we have "free" health care. My wife has a good job she loves. HR manager at Legoland. I don't have to do anything but as long as I really enjoy what I do (and even making money in the process) why should I stop? Both our kids are succcessful and have good jobs. We also have a summer house next to the sea. We rent it out when we don't ue it ourselves. My wife and I have two main "hobbies" - our (large by Danish standards) garden and travelling to other countries. Travelling is both fun and interesting and has the added bonus that, no matter where we are, we're never sorry to get back home. Denmark is by no means perfect but I honestly don't know where I'd rather live given the choice.

"Hell the man even wrote in one post that if he felt threatened by me (taller, more agile?) that he carried a gun. All that means is that if I lived next door to him I'd be able to carry a bigger gun than him LOL (sic)"

If you lived here, yes you COULD. Since you live where you do, no you can't. I threaten no one. I am rather puny in my old age, less machismo than you. Do you work out? I don't and can't, so you wouldn't, if there were warning, take me out.That is all I am saying. I try to protect myself. It may not be enough.

"if he felt threatened by me (taller, more agile?)'

Why in the WORLD would I feel threatened by you, if you moved next door? I have lived here all my life. New neighbors HAVE moved in, lots of my old ones have died. That comes with age. All my neighbors to date have been fine, and that is probably more to do with how I treat them, not as strangers, than that they are aliens. How you interact with neighbors is the way they will react to you. One wants to buy one part of my property to build on. I cannot sell him it, as it is supposed to go to my kids when I die, THEY may sell it, they won't want to live in my house, though it is better than 2 of 3 have. It will be sold and split 3 ways.

It was you, not me, that introduced the fact that you had guns in case you had to defend yourself. Against who or what I don't know.

Were you to move in next door, I doubt you would be threatening. THEN, we might become friends. So long as you are THERE, and making the comments you are, no, we could not agree on anything.

Hell, we might even go shooting. I could sponsor you for my gun club. Be advised, all I shoot, anymore, is black powder. All my centerfire weapons have sat in the gun cabinet for years.

The times I've fired I've found myself to be quite a good shot. It's just never had my interest to take it up as a hobby. If I wanted a hobby with a little motion and plenty of fresh air I'd take up golf

All this is theoretical.

What is it about what you've written that is theoretical? Haven't you meant anything you've written?

George

Gordon

The day a union is about the union and not the members is the day unions cease to be relevant or necessary.

Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke

The day a union is about the union and not the members is the day unions cease to be relevant or necessary.

That day is today.....

Just a few union issues going on that illustrate that.

Unions negotiating contracts that require health care to be purchased from a company the UNION owns. This was going on in WI, the cost of the health care from that company was a LOT more than competitors bids.



Unions negotiating exemptions from Obama care for people the union itself employs. Many of the exemptions from Obama care are just like this, and the unions elected the people who wrote the bill, and the man who signed it into law, then turn around and "hose" the unions employees from receiving the "benefits" of it ??

Union officers having "super seniority" meaning that a Steward on a shift becomes the highest seniority "brother or sister" on the shift. This even goes on at USPS, local office here, lady takes the steward job (nobody else wanted it) with just a few years in, cuts happen, wow, she stays full time while 20 year veteran "brother" is reduced to part time status and benefits.

Originally Posted by willbird

That day is today.....

Just a few union issues going on that illustrate that.

Unions negotiating contracts that require health care to be purchased from a company the UNION owns. This was going on in WI, the cost of the health care from that company was a LOT more than competitors bids.



Unions negotiating exemptions from Obama care for people the union itself employs. Many of the exemptions from Obama care are just like this, and the unions elected the people who wrote the bill, and the man who signed it into law, then turn around and "hose" the unions employees from receiving the "benefits" of it ??

Union officers having "super seniority" meaning that a Steward on a shift becomes the highest seniority "brother or sister" on the shift. This even goes on at USPS, local office here, lady takes the steward job (nobody else wanted it) with just a few years in, cuts happen, wow, she stays full time while 20 year veteran "brother" is reduced to part time status and benefits.

Your examples, IMO hit the nail on the head

Gordon

Way back in 1961 teachers in my community earned $4000.00 per year to start. rising to $6000 after 12 years. The janitors were better paid and most, if not all of them were former School Committeemen. One day the janitors found an empty six pack of beer cans in the cafeteria. Students arrived at school up to one and one half hours before school began so that favored contractors could make multiple bus runs and earn more money. The principal ordered all the teachers to some to school 90 minutes early and stay three hours late every day to see to it that there would be no more drinking. The seven hour work day (plus hours of correcting and lesson planning) suddenly was extended by four and one half hours with no compensation. The teachers on the other schools continued to work seven hours for the same pay. The teachers in the high school offered to set up a rotating schedule so that they would only have to work one long day per week. After all the students were all in one room. there were 100 teachers. Twenty teachers to control one room should be enough. No. All the teachers had to stay but only one administrator to make sure they didn't leave. A union was formed. People think that it is all about money.Often it is not. If a worker wants any dignity at all he must bargain for it. All too often, in public employment, the boss would rather throw money at a problem than do any work himself. You see it is not his money. It is ours. I can't imagine any of you who owns a shop refusing to let a man attend his mother's funeral and pay $1000.00 out of your profits to do so. To a school administrator the problem of finding someone to replace the mourner is an aggravation. The $1000.00 is somebody else's money. Yet, if the mourner feels he has to skip the funeral to feed his family, he is seen as doubly at fault. He did not even bother to attend his own mother's funeral and the greedy bastard ripped off the taxpayer for $1000.00.

As to the logic of "restructuring" pensions. Nobody really has a problem with new hires. If the pensions are too high, cut back as far as you can and still be able to get quality workers. The problem lies with what has been already earned. If a worker has ten sick days a year cumulative to thirty days and has accumulated those thirty days and then gets sick, should the boss be able to say we were only kidding? What about pension benefits accumulated over an even longer period of time? In private industry there are ways this can be done. The easiest way is to bleed off a all the money and go bankrupt. Governments hardly ever go bankrupt although they do go into receivership from time to time. In Central Falls, RI the receiver slashed pensions so severely that firemen had to sell their cars, go on food stamps and medicare to survive at all. Most are too old to go back to work. Some are disabled because of work. If a man was still able to do the work, they would not let him have his old job back, even if he had retired one day before the pensions were cut.

The real fun comes with cutting pensions without any real necessity. The logic is this. The taxpayer always foots the bill for whatever elected officials do. So if a public official causes an event which creates a large liability, the public should not be on the hook. The thing really goes back to kings and such but is enshrined in one thing in particular. You can only sue the state with the state's permission and the state can put limits on what it will pay out. (King screws up, he may choose to help those he has hurt but he is the king and if he does not help, tough luck!) Some jurisdictions pay for damage from potholes, others don't. If the current legislature agrees that pensions awarded in the past were too high, it can cut them. Naturally civil servants who have already done the work feel that they are being cheated out of compensation they have earned. am one of them.

Bird ur talk is all smoke and mirrors,rush kinda talk, rather boring sir.and quite stale
Gw

Originally Posted by Greg White

Bird ur talk is all smoke and mirrors,rush kinda talk, rather boring sir.and quite stale
Gw

Tell me which part was not true ??

United Federation of Teachers welfare fund looks to be the largest exemption, with 351,000 employees.


The United Federation of Teachers -- one of President Obama's key political backers -- is the biggest beneficiary of a White House sweetheart deal that will exempt certain outfits from complying with new health-care rules, officials revealed yesterday.
The quietly approved federal waivers for 30 companies, health insurers, unions and other groups across the country means the UFT doesn't have to gradually phase out caps on annual health coverage like everyone else.
The UFT was concerned that could have been a major financial hit on the union.


The one-year waiver, approved last month by the Department of Health and Human Services, covers all 351,000 members of the UFT's welfare fund, which provides health care and other benefits.

Originally Posted by Cuchullain

Way back in 1961 teachers in my community earned $4000.00 per year to start. rising to $6000 after 12 years. The janitors were better paid and most, if not all of them were former School Committeemen. One day the janitors found an empty six pack of beer cans in the cafeteria. Students arrived at school up to one and one half hours before school began so that favored contractors could make multiple bus runs and earn more money. The principal ordered all the teachers to some to school 90 minutes early and stay three hours late every day to see to it that there would be no more drinking. The seven hour work day (plus hours of correcting and lesson planning) suddenly was extended by four and one half hours with no compensation. The teachers on the other schools continued to work seven hours for the same pay. The teachers in the high school offered to set up a rotating schedule so that they would only have to work one long day per week. After all the students were all in one room. there were 100 teachers. Twenty teachers to control one room should be enough. No. All the teachers had to stay but only one administrator to make sure they didn't leave. A union was formed. People think that it is all about money.Often it is not. If a worker wants any dignity at all he must bargain for it. All too often, in public employment, the boss would rather throw money at a problem than do any work himself. You see it is not his money. It is ours. I can't imagine any of you who owns a shop refusing to let a man attend his mother's funeral and pay $1000.00 out of your profits to do so. To a school administrator the problem of finding someone to replace the mourner is an aggravation. The $1000.00 is somebody else's money. Yet, if the mourner feels he has to skip the funeral to feed his family, he is seen as doubly at fault. He did not even bother to attend his own mother's funeral and the greedy bastard ripped off the taxpayer for $1000.00.

As to the logic of "restructuring" pensions. Nobody really has a problem with new hires. If the pensions are too high, cut back as far as you can and still be able to get quality workers. The problem lies with what has been already earned. If a worker has ten sick days a year cumulative to thirty days and has accumulated those thirty days and then gets sick, should the boss be able to say we were only kidding? What about pension benefits accumulated over an even longer period of time? In private industry there are ways this can be done. The easiest way is to bleed off a all the money and go bankrupt. Governments hardly ever go bankrupt although they do go into receivership from time to time. In Central Falls, RI the receiver slashed pensions so severely that firemen had to sell their cars, go on food stamps and medicare to survive at all. Most are too old to go back to work. Some are disabled because of work. If a man was still able to do the work, they would not let him have his old job back, even if he had retired one day before the pensions were cut.

The real fun comes with cutting pensions without any real necessity. The logic is this. The taxpayer always foots the bill for whatever elected officials do. So if a public official causes an event which creates a large liability, the public should not be on the hook. The thing really goes back to kings and such but is enshrined in one thing in particular. You can only sue the state with the state's permission and the state can put limits on what it will pay out. (King screws up, he may choose to help those he has hurt but he is the king and if he does not help, tough luck!) Some jurisdictions pay for damage from potholes, others don't. If the current legislature agrees that pensions awarded in the past were too high, it can cut them. Naturally civil servants who have already done the work feel that they are being cheated out of compensation they have earned. am one of them.

Civil servants?

I'm REALLY having a hard time trying to figure out your logic here. Are trying to tell me that there was no reason to fire some one for drinking on the job?

Is the union's duty to protect these "employees"?

Willbird,

" Union officers having "super seniority" meaning that a Steward on a shift becomes the highest seniority "brother or sister" on the shift. This even goes on at USPS, local office here, lady takes the steward job (nobody else wanted it) with just a few years in, cuts happen, wow, she stays full time while 20 year veteran "brother" is reduced to part time status and benefits."

I am sure you are aware that there ARE Cos., who will lay off 50 people, up to and including, one man they want to get rid of. You may even do that, if you have a Co. They may call them all back, except the one they wanted to get rid of. Super Seniority is designed to prevent punitive discharge.

I have had GOOD Stewards, and I have had bad, as under the Boss's desk Stewards, those were looking for a Management job.

That girl didn't WANT that 20 year guy to get laid off, she probably, I don't know her, didn't want ANY laid off. That happens, she can't prevent them.

Small,

"Civil servants?

I'm REALLY having a hard time trying to figure out your logic here. Are trying to tell me that there was no reason to fire some one for drinking on the job?

Is the union's duty to protect these "employees"?"

I challenge you to find, in Cuchulain's post 1151, where ANYBODY got fired. I don't think the janitors accused anybody in specific, from the post, who drank beer on the job.

Theoretically, that could have been a maintenance crew working the evening before. Good, UNION, janitors empty the trashcans, especially in the cafeteria, at the end of lunch. They don't have to empty clean trashcans in the AM.

So they have a NONUNION Co. do some work after school hours, they finish their work, unwind with a beer each before they leave to go home. NON-Civil Servant, too. Why the Super decides to make his teachers put in, what, 4 1/2 more hours, for no additional pay, when no students were found to be drinking beer, indeed, from the Post, nobody knows WHO drank the beer.

I will give kudos to whoever it was. They trash canned the empties instead of throwing them on the floor. Poor janitors would have had to bend over and pick them up, otherwise.

George

"Super Seniority" is a matter of contract for private employer unions, in the union I belonged to for a couple years they floated that idea and it got shot down in flames, never came to a vote. But the heart of the socialist beast is that all the comrades are EQUAL with the exception of seniority, the concept of super seniority flies in the face of that, as does "tiered" pay and benefits for workers with less seniority, and the concept of permanent "part time" status for some brothers and sisters.

Bill

Bill,

"But the heart of the socialist beast is that all the comrades are EQUAL with the exception of seniority, the concept of super seniority flies in the face of that, as does "tiered" pay and benefits for workers with less seniority, and the concept of permanent "part time" status for some brothers and sisters.

Bill "

Man, you got some learning to do. YOUR people brought in "permanent part time". YOUR people brought in "tiered pay".

You have no "brothers and sisters", you are not what could be called a UNION. I got mine, the hell with you. You get paid, the plant stays open, and you wonder why them working down there resent you, doing the same work for half the pay. Delphi had to open a new shop for the half wage people because of the animosity.

Seniority IS the HEART of UNIONISM. If you were one of the Operating Unions, and you wanted to go back to work,you threw in your card., If you were the eldest bidder on the job you got it, just as in my Union.

If you are in the Maritime Union, you throw in your card, you ship before some young punk. You don't get relegated because you are getting up in years.

I know most, here, are owners, so the idea is anathema, but the few who actually have an hourly job probably like the idea, once they have gotten past aybe 30years of age. Before that, they think they are the be all and know all. Al o the wise asses we have, here, are most likely young pups. "I should have that job!"

Bide your time, you will be one of them overpaid greybeards, one day and you will be bitching about all them young pups.

You ain't REALLY special, pipple like you have existed since Aristotle. He bitched about you, too. Tempestuous. NEVER satisfied! Nor are you.

George

Originally Posted by gmatov

You ain't REALLY special, pipple like you have existed since Aristotle. He bitched about you, too. Tempestuous. NEVER satisfied! Nor are you.

George

George, how long is it since you started talking to yourself?

Originally Posted by gmatov

Bill,

"But the heart of the socialist beast is that all the comrades are EQUAL with the exception of seniority, the concept of super seniority flies in the face of that, as does "tiered" pay and benefits for workers with less seniority, and the concept of permanent "part time" status for some brothers and sisters.

Bill "

Man, you got some learning to do. YOUR people brought in "permanent part time". YOUR people brought in "tiered pay".

You have no "brothers and sisters", you are not what could be called a UNION. I got mine, the hell with you. You get paid, the plant stays open, and you wonder why them working down there resent you, doing the same work for half the pay. Delphi had to open a new shop for the half wage people because of the animosity.

Seniority IS the HEART of UNIONISM. If you were one of the Operating Unions, and you wanted to go back to work,you threw in your card., If you were the eldest bidder on the job you got it, just as in my Union.

If you are in the Maritime Union, you throw in your card, you ship before some young punk. You don't get relegated because you are getting up in years.

I know most, here, are owners, so the idea is anathema, but the few who actually have an hourly job probably like the idea, once they have gotten past aybe 30years of age. Before that, they think they are the be all and know all. Al o the wise asses we have, here, are most likely young pups. "I should have that job!"

Bide your time, you will be one of them overpaid greybeards, one day and you will be bitching about all them young pups.

You ain't REALLY special, pipple like you have existed since Aristotle. He bitched about you, too. Tempestuous. NEVER satisfied! Nor are you.

George

Dunno who "my people" are George :-). But I AM well past 30 just so ya know. And getting older did not make me less likely to want to EARN an income rather than extort it by threats.

But somebody offered a contract where some union members could sell others at a reduced rate of pay and benefits...and the majority of those members approved that contract. My Ma worked for Food Town stores. How did she get sold by her union brothers and sisters ??

First off she was sold as "part time" with reduced pay and benefits, then the MGR screwed up and gave her too many hours for too many weeks, and she got "full time" status.

But even then she was still being sold due to tiers, less pay, no automatic 1.5 time on Saturday, no automatic 2x time on Sunday and holidays, she had to hit 40 hours for 1.5 time and 48 for 2x time.

So the union brothers and sisters working with her sold her at a reduced rate to keep their own higher pay and benefits.

It is really boiler plate "Animal Farm" George...lock stock, and barrel. And the ones getting sold as indentured servants pay the same exact amount of union dues as the ones who are "more equal".

And the DUES is the real life's blood of the union...add in stuff like a $150 initiation fee for the one and only union I was a member of, equal to over a years dues, and again it is a process of selling new hires as indentured servants.


But this thread is about Public employee unions, the private stuff is on the chopping block too, but divide and conquer seems to be working quite well as many private employee union members seem to have gladly curtailed the pay and bennies of the public folks, plus add "right to work". Next round they will get the publics to vote for "right to work" for the privates. It is coming in every state, even in Cali they voted to slash lavish public employee pay and benefits.

LAVISH, thats funny right thar, I dont care who u r,, you notice the cops are excluded from the cuts?
freakers are gonna need thier protections, just like when Unions first started,hopefully the youngers will have enough fight in em like my Daddy and Granpa did, the money boys aint thru taken from the grunts yet,bend over,or get on your knees and make a oval shape on your face, or tell ur Miss"s the boss is gonna be by to see her this evenin,youll be back after he leaves.
Gw