George, as a matter of fact, I didn't like Bush's overspending either, and said so at the time. He couldn't hold a candle to Obama, though.


If you wonder why the dems don't use their numbers to shove health care through, you might consider the fact that a majority of Americans don't want it and are willing to say so. Obama is willing to suffer the loss of a lot of seats in congress to get it pushed through, but the people holding those seats are not quite so willing. Fancy that!

"Americans are more negative about the impact of a new healthcare bill on their personal situations than they are about its impact on the nation as a whole. By a 10-point margin, Americans are more likely to say a new bill would make their personal healthcare situations worse (36%), rather than better (26%). Almost 4 out of 10 say a bill would make no difference, or have no opinion on the topic.



All in all, the data reinforce previous research showing some skepticism about the long-term benefits of healthcare legislation, particularly at the personal level. Less than half of the public at this juncture perceives that if a new healthcare bill is passed into law, it would improve either the broad U.S. healthcare system or their own healthcare situations.

Should Congress Vote for or Against a New Bill?

Americans have moved in a more negative direction on the basic issue of whether a new bill should be passed into law. Thirty-eight percent now say they would advise their member of Congress to vote against a new healthcare bill this year, while 29% would advise their member to vote for it, and about a third have no opinion. When those with no opinion are asked which way they lean, the verdict becomes 48% "against," and 43% "for." Both of these results are more negative than those from early October."

http://www.gallup.com/poll/124202/No...re-Reform.aspx

The numbers in congress may be there, but the numbers back home tell another story....Joe

At some point in time, we have got to quit beating that dead "Bush/Rove" horse. When someone posts anything remotely critical of the Obama/Pelosi agenda, we get George spewing about Bush, the war, K street, unions in the south, et al.

Just because someone has concerns about pending legislation, or the path we seem to be on, doesn't automatically mean he was a rabid Republican, and supports the war in Iraq.

Just for the record, I believe Dub'ya was a well meaning guy, placed in power by the Republican back room guys, who was way over his head. I also believe sending troops into Iraq with NO knowledge of the Iraqi's culture or traditions, was the stupidest move that could have been made. You don't go into a foreign country, whose citizens are armed to the teeth, and drop off an 8th grade civics textbook, and expect "Democracy" by Christmas.

Also for the record, I believe Obama is a well meaning socialist, placed in power by the back room organizations of ACORN, MOVE ON, and Geroge Soros.

I have never really judged people by how they look (how they SMELL is completely different however hehe).

There are no teachers with 2 year degrees that I know of ;-). And teachers HERE where I live make 35-45k a year.

As to OT, I'm down with 5x10(5 days 10 hours) a week, many salaried people end up working that anyway. I'd prefer to have my weekends to myself, and holidays. Those extra 10 hours a week are a nice boost to the paycheck, and not a backbreaker IMHO.

I have worked compulsory 7x12 for months at a time, and I did not like it one bit :-). I have been working since 1983 and over that time I have almost always traded being treated decent and having a job I did not hate for not getting paid the extreme high end of potential earnings.

Also just for me, I'll GLADLY work 2pm-3pm to 8pm-11pm short of shift for the better job opportunities, slight boost in pay, and less mgmnt clowns around messing things up, I HATE third or graveyard shift.

Bill

I quoted this whole post just because I wanted to see it up here a second time. It's the most observant and intelligent post I've read in this forum in a very long time.

Pro Union guys are an interesting crowd.

The pay union dues to work at a place. The union bosses take their union dues and buy Lincon Navigators or big Cadillacs and they are considered heros for the union.

The boss rolls into work with a cadillac, he pays you to work for him, and in 90% of shops that I have see you have a clean environment, good benefits and the boss is an SOB.

Interesting.

The party that appears to be (actually or not) to blame for dismal economic conditions, gets the vast majority of votes, right? (sarcasm).

Let me re-phrase the question. Do you think that American manufacturers should be rewarded (tax cuts, etc...) for investing in this country and it's workers or should they be rewarded for investing in every place EXCEPT America? This is not a "gotcha" question. At least that is not how I am intending it.

Jeff

Anti-union guys are very interesting as well. They seem to want to make as little money as possible for as much work as possible.

Yeah those union big shots each make more money than Bill Gates and Warren Buffet combined, huh?

Jeff

That is a good point about not having as many management clowns around. I have been working days for about 13 years now. I will never be used to it. Afternoon or graveyard shift is a natural fit, for me. I don't understand why so many people HATE anything except dayshift. There is also the HUGE benefit that if you need to go to the doctor, post office, DMV, ALLLLLLLLL that shit that is mostly 9 to 5, you don't have to take time off work. THAT is a NICE situation.

Jeff

Not quite dead on in the first sentence, JDJ, since it's the party that attracts those who are down and out of work, needing a handout, can't even pay attention, the more of those around, the better the outlook for the party who attracts them. Prosperity is not a good climate for socialism and it's fellow travelers, so prosperity has to be squelched, as is happening now. People don't ususally turn their freedoms over to government by choice. They have to be starved into it. Ask Rom Emanual...."You can do a lot of stuff during a crisis that you could not get by with otherwise"......Not an exact quote, but very close, and very revealing.

As to the second paragraph, you can continue to list all of the sins of manufacturing and the reasons business should be punished, but the fact is that the more you punish, the more they either leave the country or never start up in the fist place.

In the same way that businesses leave the US and head for China or Mexico, they leave places like California and Detroit and head for states with less regulation, lower taxes, right to work laws, etc. You can't create a friendly business climate while maintaining that business is our enemy and to be despised and raped at every turn.

Faced with the current pending legislation, government running roughshod over anybody they please with no assurance the private property has any meaning any more, taxation getting ready to simply explode and all the other conditions government is creating, would YOU want to open a factory today?

Not me! If I invented the best thing anybody ever dreamed of tomorrow, I'd hide the print until I thought I had some chance of personally benifitting from it, which is not going to happen under this administration.

So who should get the tax breaks, etc? You can't pick and choose. It has to be the folks who have the potentiol to do some good. Some will, some won't, but trying to choose winners and losers is always a mistake on the part of government. Winners and losers choose themselves by their actions, and government is not smart enough to tell the difference.....Joe

That says it all Joe! You disagree with my question. A REAL AMERICAN PATRIOT!
You also contradict yourself in the first 3 sentences.
Jeff

I didn't say that businesses should be punished, nor did I list their sins. I just don't think they should be rewarded for hiring everyone EXCEPT U.S. workers. Then again, from your posts in the past, you seem to think that ANY tax and/or restriction on industry/mfg./ businesses, is "punishment".

Jeff

Of course not. Therefore, is a good thing that is not going to happen anytime soon, except in your paranoid mind.

Jeff

Free enterprise hasn't, and isn't going to be done away with.

Man! I had thought I had heard of some paranoid delusions in my time, but I hadn't heard anything compared to this!

So I take that you are out of business now? Nothing selling? I seem to remember not too long ago (after Obama was elected) that you were claiming that business was BOOMING for you. How is that possible? He has destroyed everything according to you!

Jeff

Cash,

"The boss rolls into work with a cadillac, he pays you to work for him, and in 90% of shops that I have see you have a clean environment, good benefits and the boss is an SOB."

The Boss very well may be an SOB. Not necessarily, just as the UNION Boss doesn't, in all cases, drive a Lincoln or Caddy.

My Union Bosses, in 3 UNIONS that I have worked in got paid the AER of the highest paid man in the mills. So if the layout man, f'rinstance made 35 thou, the BOSS got 35 thou, and in 2 of the companies they also put in time on their job.

Turbogen Co., the Pres worked on the floor alongside me. Steel mill, the Pres worked in the welding shop for his department. Company paid him just they paid the guy working alongside him when he was at work, Co. and UNION split his pay when he had to take care of UNION business, ie, out of his department.

You must have your idea of UNIONs from the Hoffa movies and stories you read and saw while growing up. Course, he ran a UNION that had several million members, so even if a buck a man went to his upkeep, he would rake in lots per year. Not as much as the Bosses of the Cos his UNION represented the workers of. In other words, don't believe everything you took in with your mother's milk.

Bill,

I worked afternoon and evening shift for the better part of my first 25 years. I loved it, and much for the same reason as you. Few BOSSES. Another is that my machinery repair department had most of the crew on DL. MANY of them. They were assigned to Drill Press, Lathe, VBM, HBM. Worse, assigned to departments, one where DPs might be all sensitive drills, lathe dept that is all 16 inch or less, HBM/VBM that is all small machines.

4:15-12:15 ran the whole mill, 36 inch Bullard one night, maybe leave that to work on 40 FOOT VBM. Cinova 80 to a 40 foot tall Ingersoll. Sensitive drill to a 19 inch column 12 foot arm Carlton, manual machine to a tape or CNC machine.

Guys on DL would bump people out of my group to DL and last a couple weeks at most. They weren't prepared to go from type of machine to type of machine.

One guy bumped my partner, a guy I thought was an incompetent ass. Good. He was pretty dumb. Took less than 2 weeks for HIM to decide to go back to DL, and his parting shot was "You might be getting your buddy back." I said I could hardly wait to get someone on my wagon who could at least pull his weight. I can't remember if that guy had ANY expertise in any category of machine. I never saw any.

JoeD,

"As to the second paragraph, you can continue to list all of the sins of manufacturing and the reasons business should be punished, but the fact is that the more you punish, the more they either leave the country or never start up in the fist place."

Leave aside the "never start up" part, and expand upon why with the most friendly regime since Reagan more jobs went offshore under GW than ever.

We read above about how YOU, if you had the best thing since sliced bread, would hide your light under a bushel, rather than open a company that could hire a million people, JUST BECAUSE you are with the rest of the Repubs who SWEAR that they will NEVER vote for anything that could help to pull the country out of depression if a DEM gets the credit for it.

Milken Institute Review says we ARE in an actual DEPRESSION. Panel members there denounce your GOD, Milton Friedman. THEY are not all raving Socialists.

We are in the worst shape since 1929-32, and you bemoan the 787 billion bucks, 1/4 of which has been allocated, because it hasn't pulled us back to 2006. Billions for Defense was the rallying cry. Borrow and spend for the "War", and I use that word loosely. I support our troops, I do not support the direction our country is going. I was a troop. I didn't use flat feet or "other priorities" or ulcerative colitis to make money while other people made big bucks as 4Fs.

(Although, if I had precognition, I might have gotten my job BEFORE I enlisted, gotten my service time in, and seniority for it, and qualified for a pension payout when my company shut down and they paid off the workforce.)

I don't think, though I might be wrong, that the Reps will make much headway come 2010. I think, though I may be wrong, that such as you can plant seeds of doubt that the Dems can help, let US back in and we will do better, THIS TIME.

What did that old lady in SC or NC say, when arguing that they are going to kill all the old people? "Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on you." Idjit. And close to Bush who said.. er,...er...can't be fooled again.

Joe,

You're young. You don't know any better. All you can think of is that "Our Lord Reagan" cut taxes, and "All was good".

Once upon a time, long, long ago, the ultra rich paid an "ungodly 90%" marginal tax rate. In those years we had MANY ultrarich people. Carnegie comes to mind. Mellon. Rockefeller.

Corporations, too. Rate is supposed to be 35% GE, for one pays NO taxes. Effective rate is in the single digits, and, you know, some always say that Corps do not PAY taxes. They COLLECT taxes. So, it seems they COLLECT, but do not PAY.

You, I am sure, if you ever get back into mfg., after Obama gets kicked out and a decent Pres like maybe Sarah, gets in, will be happy to pay taxes again, you know, start up your company again. Make a few bucks, pay as much as they can prove you owe, minus your political contributions.

You take 8 years to wreck the economy and denigrate the new Admin for not getting us back to 15,000 on the DOW in 9 months? AND, the DOW is one of the worst measurements for how the economy is doing. That is rich people getting richer off the fools who are willing to buy stocks.

Mud,
"It's the most observant and intelligent post I've read in this forum in a very long time. "

So much for your intelligence.

JoeD,

"George, as a matter of fact, I didn't like Bush's overspending either, and said so at the time. He couldn't hold a candle to Obama, though."

Bullshit, Joe. Bush took a surplus and created a 10 TRILLION buck deficit in JUST 8 years.

You CAN argue that he took 8 years to do it, but he did not have 18 MILLION people out of work. I am not surprised to read that you say you should not help those who lose their jobs BECAUSE of the BUSH policies. I would expect that of you. YOU'RE the guy who will offshore your dental work to save money, just as Corps do.

Canucks seem to love their medical system, except for those who Fox gets to tell us how horrid it is, they are going to die if they don't get their tummy tuck or their breast implant or their big honking lump off the schnozz. Why dont THEY go to Mexico to save money?

"You can't create a friendly business climate while maintaining that business is our enemy and to be despised and raped at every turn."

Joe, you got to be kidding me. I don't LIKE you, I read you everyday, you seem like a clone of Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh. Somebody sometime in your past must have put a vise on your nuts and said if you EVER say anything pro-Dem, we will tighten the screw.

You haven't a single thought in your head that is not fed you from REP HQ.

There are actually a few here who listen to you and genuflect to you. Count me out. Count Jeff out. A few more don't buy your BS, and not least Munchr.

From NM, you are like"The Mouse That Roared". What do you got 60, 70 thou in the whole state?( Could be 90 MILLION, I don't care.) I still don't like you.

WARNING TO BLUESTEEL. I have just made an offensive remark to another poster. I have been discourteous. I apologize for offending your sensibilities. I realize that NO Aussie would EVER make ANY detrimental remarks to ANY person who EVER made a remark on ANY forum in the entire internet.

Yeah, right.

Cheers,

George

Look up George in the dictionary, and here is what you get:

http://scienceblogs.com/bushwells/up.../Thorazine.jpg

Nope, my business is still doing just fine, thank you. On my miniscule scale, I may live to be the last American toolmaker. Even have a large trade surplus with the rest of the world (large percentage, anyhow).

I would not, however, hire help or invest in expensive machinery or plant at a time like this, and obviously neither would most other folks of sound mind. I'm sure there are exceptions, but most folks I know are looking for ways to downsize, stick with their stndard items that have proven themselves profitable and save the new stuff for a more business-friendly climate. Periods of wealth redistribution are not times to try and get wealthy. Just common sense.

Some of the exceptions are those who realize that with REAL unemployment at least 17%, they can now make stuff that is labor intensive real cheap, 'cause labor is in a buyer's market. Sad, but true.......Joe

I wonder what percentage of graduates from that "Business" school wind up working for the Government.
They Should call it "Harvard School of Government"
Oops, They already have the Kennedy School of Government.
Same with Harvard Law School.
They should just combine them all and call it Harvard Government University.
It's funny because they call themselves a private university, but they couldn't exist without government support.

SM

Believe it or not, I am glad to hear that your business is doing well.

That is true about the unemployment situation. I don't know about the EXACT percentage, but I am fairly certain that it is worse than the official 10 or so percent. Sad but true indeed.

Jeff

Very rare that you hear this from me, but back to the subject of the OP. I have no idea whether Bloom will be worth a damn or not. I don't have a whole lot of faith in either party for that matter. It just gets irritating when someone lies about one of the parties and tries to scare everyone with B.S.

Jeff

Well I tried to stay away from politics on this forum......
even did for a while.

You libby's need to get creative.
What you have going for you in your abillity and willingness
to fight dirty, and keep kicking even when your apponant is
week and down.

You loose in your incessant chanting of the same old taunts.
Paranoid
Right-wing nuts.
Taking any third-world advercary that is clearly "the bad guy"
by any civilized standards, and tagging them "conservative".

You guys are just plain boring .... and cowards I might add.
I think that is really your underpinning. Cowardice.
That's why you are uncomfortable with the millitary.
Convicted in your hearts, that you can't support sending others,
to do what you are too chicken-shit to do.

Also why you like big-Brother's warm touch. Afraid to go it on your own
if things get REALY REALY bad.
And I might ad when he gets TOO big....afraid he might remember
those that saw it coming and stood against him.

Cheers

m1m