In our shop there are some really bright, intelligent and motivated machinists.
These guys are very creative thinkers--we encourage them to be "mobile" and will assign them to different types of jobs/machines, in order to keep them from getting bored.
There are other craftsmen who are very talented in specific areas, but do not like to do new things, and are not particularly flexible or agile when it comes to venturing outside their comfort zone. We keep them on task and limit their "mobility". Seems to work well for everyone.
I am glad for the varied input. I currently work at a shop where I am learning Trak-controlled lathes. For the most part guys at this shop are on one machine all the time. I like to turn, mill, grind,(cutters or jobs) and occasionally deburr and assemble. I think the mobility involved breaks the monotony of running one machine all the time. Word has it that the boss will buy me a new Trak mill in the near future. Oh joy!
I am very happy where I am now. I feel appreciated for the experience I have, and the skills that are somehow hard to find in this area.
Is this not the definition of a Journeyman machinist quoted above?
Originally Posted by aerodark
I do not think that mobility is going away,but rather the journeyman that is fading away.
I can take a print either on a piece of cardboard or CAD drawing,tell the customer about how long it will take and how much,fab and weld it out,program the CNC to turn/mill it,surface grind the faces etc.
Funny thing is,in our shop my pay is the same as the others who can NOT program or weld and gives a shit less how long it takes to do a job.
Boss says he does not believe in paying one more than the other,once we hit top pay thats it....go figure,we in the hell do I do my very best to take care of his company and customers.
Originally Posted by IronReb
My former boss told me the term "journeyman" was overused and meant nothing. I think he meant to say that most Journey-level machinists commanded too much coin!
I don't know if I should even respond to this.
I had to, of course, respond to Gordon,
"Quote Originally Posted by gmatov View Post
I was at all times happy with what I made. As I said, I built a house out of the pocket I put all that money into.
I don't DO any of that stuff, anymore, but I don't think that I was ever as selfish as many of you. Some of you are working strictly in your shop as your sole means of survival. I can actually understand YOU cutting pay to the bone. Them whom have more or less "Hobby Shops", you do some work, when you have some free time, you should not be dicking your help as to wages. AYE would tell most of you to stick it in your ass. I would not work for you.
George, a word of friendly advice which you can take or leave.
When you write something like you just did write it as a word document (or whatever you have on your computer) and count to 10 several times before deciding whether to post or not."
I have done that. I have compiled in Word, and I actually OWN a licensed version. OLD, but still mine, and still compatible, works with Win 7.
I have posted rebuts to you a time or 2, and, believe me, I hesitate, count to 10, and say, "What the, hell with it, he is STILL a dickhead!"
"My former boss told me the term "journeyman" was overused and meant nothing. "
I would wager that he never held a good job In a Major Company, or he would not be your former boss. He made enough working for someone else, OR someone gave or loaned him the money to set up a machine shop.
I do not really care. YOU guys have to worry about money every month. I am retired, younger than Gordon, love my retired life, would not consider competing with such as you.
Fight it out, your own selves.
I bet you are 100% spot on here.
Originally Posted by gmatov
HMC, stop messing with George He's going to take that either that you're in love with him or that you hate his guts :eeck:
Originally Posted by HeavyMetalChick
Our George is an either or man If it ain't white it must be black.
Three old guys, all hard of hearing, were playing golf one sunny spring morning.
One says to another, "Windy, isn't it?"
"No," the second man answers, "it's Thursday."
The third guy, listening in, pipes up, "So am I! Let's grab a beer."
My mobility is a razor scooter, it lets me go from the lathe to the mill and wherever else in the shop I need to go as fast as possible!
Not really, but I've thought about it. The problem with running everything in a big shop is covering the distance between it all. That and being the only guy who knows how to run a few machines means you get the other guys in the shop bugging you to cut stuff for them.
i wanted to wear my skates but they wouldn't let me :/ i'd be the fastest machinist ever! they also took away my remote control car...and my waterguns...
Well, for what it's worth......
first shop I worked, you were given a job and you saw it through, whether it involved turning, milling, grinding, or whatever. I believe that is the way it should be done. That gives the guys well rounded experience and allows one to take whatever approach he wants to getting it done. Also, if you accidentally end up toward the top or bottom of tolerance, you can keep mind of it for the next step, whether or not it involved other machining process. I ABSOLUTELY hated taking up someone else's work, be it finishing up a "new meat's" start, taking up on a vacationer's work, or fixing error's, it drove me crazy that so many seemed to be a bit sloppy with their work. Whether tolerance was +/- .005 or +/- .0005, I always tried to shoot for dead nuts. or at least couple tenths anyway. It is easy to do and I never could understand why some used up the tolerance range. The few times I took up on what someone else started, I usually would rather "fix" things to meet my standards.
The only thing was that there was 2 or 3 guys use the CMM and 3 or 4 guys using the wire machines. These guys also used eveything else. Everyone else there used everything else there in the shop. Also, there was a few guys that were usually putting the dies together. But it was common to get all the die steels, mill drill and turn, maybe grind, depending, send to heat treat, get them back, grind, send in to the wire guys, grind, then give to one of the die guys, or have them help you put the die together, and then of course eventually be doing the die work yourself.
The boss man was still drawing by hand and was damn good at what he done. And damn that guy would surprize you at what he knew and could do.
I really could not imagine being fixed to one machine, or one type of machine. The boredom and lack of experience would hurt. Also, it makes things much better knowing what it takes when a part needs moved on. I can, however, see limiting those who may use a machining center or turning center. Only because you can't have someone screwing up work offsets or tool offsets because they wanted to do it different or didn't fully know how. And set up time is reduced dramatically when this are done right
Your Gender has nothing to do with it. WWII proved that women CAN do any job that a man can. Physical strength can be a limiter, in some jobs, and definitely was in "the Old Days", when most jobs were more physical than today. That can even be untrue, sometimes. I have known, 50 years ago, farm women who tossed 60 pound bales of hay up on the wagons. 2 in particular, the old man drove the tractor, the wife did the work.
Westinghouse, '60's through the '80's, we had women running DP's, and I can see no reason why a woman could not be as good a button pusher as a man. Smallish lathes and mills almost always have Jib cranes over them, so even THAT doesn't stop a woman from loading them, that the part is too heavy for her..
Running conventional, I don't think a woman would be at a disadvantage. If she knows how to RUN the damned machine, the divisions on the dials cannot be a mystery to her.
I don't underestimate women.
"The "key people" are ambitious and want to learn all the machines and move up, be the next lead guy or programmer or production manager....why do you resent people that want more than to be machinists? Do you honestly think i ran 4 machines for 8-10 dollars an hour?! are you insane?! More responsibility = more money. Intelligence = more money. Ambition = more money...and isn't that what we are all here for? Some people are just plain stupid and aren't meant for anytihng but catching parts...maybe they are in the wrong industry...maybe they just don't care...Thats your $10hr "machinist"...some people would rather complain than make a difference.That's not me.
Whereas, Ironreb says:
" I can take a print either on a piece of cardboard or CAD drawing,tell the customer about how long it will take and how much,fab and weld it out,program the CNC to turn/mill it,surface grind the faces etc.
Funny thing is,in our shop my pay is the same as the others who can NOT program or weld and gives a shit less how long it takes to do a job.
Boss says he does not believe in paying one more than the other,once we hit top pay thats it....go figure,we in the hell do I do my very best to take care of his company and customers."
So, you are going to make more money, because you are "more ambitious", "smarter", "more responsible"? That sounds like a salaried employee. Management, and management can pay their people as much or as little as they want.
On the floor, I was paid the same as everybody else in in my labor rate (on the VBM, I was paid my incentive based on what I produced, but in the steel mill, everybody in maintenance was paid the same for their class. Production had varied incentives, according to tonnage of good product. They made WAY more money than my people did.)
Both places, Bosses were not allowed to compare checks. Forbidden. Young Foreman could make twice the pay of an old Foreman. Nobody knew. I will say that in the Mill, I heard Bosses say that they had people making more money than they did, but those floor people were working double shifts. Bosses stayed over, they got compensatory time off, till the time got too long, then they got extra pay.
I don't like to admit that I may have gotten this wrong, but I do believe you posted something else that makes me leery of you. Now I can't find it.
".but you really should get a grip on your fear of the future and change and your resentment for anyone better off than yourself, you would be a much happier person and a lot less of a douche"
I have no fear of the future. I have been retired these last 6 years. I know where my next meal is coming from, and I have NO resentment for anyone who is better situated than I. I don't think it is YOU. You have fears for your job, I do not.
You will not find a person happier than I, with my "lot in life". I have all the time in the world to spend with my grands. My youngest daughter has her MBA, and a job that suits. My kids make more than I ever did, and I love that. I am an aberration, I am one of the few who do not, so far, fear that my kids will do less well than I do. This IS the first gen to have that fear, and to hear some of you speak of wages and earnings, you are there. Unionized, I made more per hour than most of you make, now, 20+ years later, and the dollar is not what it used to be.
I am very happy to be out of the work force. I would not like to be competing with you in the race to the bottom, where you are willing to work for less to HAVE a job. When you hire for less, someone who makes more than you will suddenly be let go. That sounds like all the companies hiring Mexican illegals.
"We got a Latino who will do your job for 5 bucks, you wanna keep your job?"
If anyone can give post #36 the reply it deserves I'll be a fan of them for life
(Gordon the response it deserves is none, but i do enjoy banter so i'll bite)
Regarding pay- i would never work for a company that didn't pay a person what they are worth, and sorry all men are not created equal. Thats a personal decision to work for a business like that. Unlike Ironreb, i will not settle. When i was in the shop running 4 machines you can bet your ass i gave my boss nightmares until the pay increased, yes above those guys running 1 or 2 machines, above average machinists pay....and when i was doing EHS and Machining together, guess what, another pay increase! When i moved to EHS over the entire US, another pay increase!!! If i am going to work i am going to get paid...if i am going to be held responsible i am going to get paid. If i am innovative, i am going to get paid! (this obviously doesn't apply during recession and emergency/hard time but we are not on hard times now, once upon a time we were on pay freeze for 2 years due to recession and our employer thought that shit was just gonna ride till someone said something- point being, i do have loyalty when hard times are hard but i also will not be hornswaggled)
Settling for otherwise is a personal decision. There is no such thing as a victim of circumstance, the shit you go thru is the shit you choose to take...and rarely do i take shit, esp not from a company. The people that stay quiet and keep their nose to the grindstone, tho very hard workers (i can appreciate this), will never make it anywhere for their fear...fear of making a wave, fear of asking for more, fear of losing their job and clearly that is not my case...i make the company work for me as much as i work for the company, there has to be a balance...if another guy can come in and do your job for $5 an hour then you need to think about where you need to go where that can't happen = ambition and responsibility.
I have no insecurity whatsoever about my job, period. If i got fired tomorrow i would have another job the next day, i am a skilled tradesmen, intelligent, responsible AND ambitious. I was in a meeting today discussing where i will be in a year and guess what? it's not in EHS! It's up higher...guess where? research and development!
What you need to understand about me (i say need very loosely) is that i am not Ms.College educated holier than thou blah blah blah (actually i dropped out of college first year)....i was given the opportunity to get out of the shop, make more money and do something else for a minute until something better came up and i took it, and that next better thing is R&D but i gotta hang out in EHS for a while while i train to do R&D. Meanwhile, you can bet also that i will be the BEST EHS person this comapny has ever seen. Everywhere i go i leave my mark and raise the standard, that is my personality. I did my shop time and i want more than shop pay plain and simple, and i don't want to have to work 20hrs of overtime a week to do it. So if that makes me an evil scheeming corporate bitch to be leery of, well then, thats Mrs. Bitch to you.
I'm very happy for you and your family, and your retirement! i can't wait till the rest of the workforce with the poison thots of pessimism and mediocrity get phased out, because if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem!...there's some real corporate salaried employee talk for ya!
what was the topic of this thread again??? LOL sorry guys!
And this IMO is how it should be. Some get bored out of their skull doing repetitive work (I'm one of them) while others thrive on it.
Originally Posted by Jean Solderov
I suppose the bottom line is that if you're doing what you like to do then work is fun.
I don't know how things are in say the USA, but here umpteen studies have shown that wages aren't the top priority of any machinist or any other trade for that matter. Of course minimum wage for machinists is well controlled and the machinist union here is probably also the one most respected by all.