Thread: PM and non American members

To answer your question Gordon ("what I should look for and ask so help me out if you know the answers").

Easier/direct answer:
First count the number of grains of sand in the world, then walk on thin parchment without tearing it and third pick up a metal cauldron with your forearms and carry it several feet (the last two were from the Kung Fu series). Then you will know the answers.

Harder/indirect answer:
Listen to and accept what others on this forum are saying and re-evaluate your experiences in that light.

Posing a question that is impossible to answer (similar to my direct answer above) is not a reasoned response and will never prove/disprove anything. You probably have met many good, friendly people in China and have friends there. And yes, China has changed dramatically over the days of Mao. This does not however change the experiences and views of the rest of the world in regards to human rights, tainted products, government subsidies, military etc. Yes there are other governments with horrible practices but because of its sheer size China stands out.

Quite simply your comments are civil and the comments of others "outraged" because of that is your experience and that is their experience. You failing to acknowledge others experiences inflames people. To rephrase Lazlo's question. Will you agree that most products purchased by Europe/North America etc. are heavily subsidized by the Chinese government?

Dave

Dave, I do believe you're pulling my chain, or at least trying to I'll try and respond as best I can

Originally Posted by Dave D

To answer your question Gordon ("what I should look for and ask so help me out if you know the answers").

Easier/direct answer:
First count the number of grains of sand in the world, then walk on thin parchment without tearing it and third pick up a metal cauldron with your forearms and carry it several feet (the last two were from the Kung Fu series). Then you will know the answers.

Whew I'm glad I read the rest of your post and found out that wasn't a question you wanted me to answer or give a response to.

Harder/indirect answer:
Listen to and accept what others on this forum are saying and re-evaluate your experiences in that light.

I honestly believe that I do listen to what others say. The real problem is that I don't agree with all, just as there are those that don't agree with me. When I disagrre (or agree) I usually write that. When I write about China it's never because I know all about the country. It's as good as always from what I've seen and experienced first hand. If I haven't been in a country I'm "commenting" on then I'd like to think I always state that. I've been in Moscow. OK it was in an airport for 4 hours and getting refueled so Russia isn't one of the countries I'd write about claiming first hand knowlege.

Posing a question that is impossible to answer (similar to my direct answer above) is not a reasoned response and will never prove/disprove anything. You probably have met many good, friendly people in China and have friends there. And yes, China has changed dramatically over the days of Mao. This does not however change the experiences and views of the rest of the world in regards to human rights, tainted products, government subsidies, military etc. Yes there are other governments with horrible practices but because of its sheer size China stands out.

I couldn't agree more with the fact that China does stand out because of both size (Almost the same size as Canada) but it can't be easy keeping 1,300 million people from erupting. The police in most countries have trouble handling a few hundred hot heads at one time. I keep throwing out "challenges" that go unanswered. Find a post by me where I praise the Chinese government or that I agree with how the country is run. I think you'll find that it's as good as always in people's imagination. I've met several Chinese, got to know them and their families and have become good friends with them. It really is as simple as that. The son (7 years old) of the one I've known longest calls me "Uncle" LOL. I know people in many countries and regard many of them as friends too.

Quite simply your comments are civil and the comments of others "outraged" because of that is your experience and that is their experience. You failing to acknowledge others experiences inflames people. To rephrase Lazlo's question. Will you agree that most products purchased by Europe/North America etc. are heavily subsidized by the Chinese government?

As to your last sentence and question then the only honest answer I can give is that I simply don't know. I'm sure some are but that's far from "most". There are many Danish companies established in China and they get quite a bit of help from the Danish embassies there. Is that us masking subsidies? Danish delegations visit China fequently 8as they do many other countries including the USA) and the latest Chinese delegation to Denmark seemed interested in starting Chinese companies here. As long as they abide by our rules and regulations then why not?
I believe Japanese car manufcturers are popular in the USA. Coca Cola, MacDonalds etc. etc. have been here (Denmark) for years so why not other countries too? We have Bauhaus (German), Ikea (Swedish), 7-11 and many others. The world has become very international and I don't regard that as a bad thing.

Dave

That's about the best I can do but I don't know if it's enough

Gordon

Gordon I guess we will agree to disagree on some of these issues.

Dave

Gordon,

You don't seem to understand that out problem is not with the people who live there, nor even with the companies or the managers thereof.

The problem is with the senior party leadership that sets policy for the country, and determines how it will interact with other countries.

- Leigh

Originally Posted by The real Leigh

Gordon,

You don't seem to understand that out problem is not with the people who live there, nor even with the companies or the managers thereof.

The problem is with the senior party leadership that sets policy for the country, and determines how it will interact with other countries.

- Leigh

Leigh,

And I don't think you realise that I'm not omnipotent If American presidents going back as long as I can remember can't do anything (or much) about the Chinese political leadership how on Earth can I be expected to? The Chinese people I know have more or less the same problems as the rest of us and do what they can to better their conditions. Family is definately much more important to Chinese than for example Danes. It's not so much we don't care but our "system" is expected to deal with things like that, for better or worse. As said I don't believe I've ever praised China's form of government. What I have written on more than one occasion is that it does seem to be changing to the better. To some that change is slow but IMHO it is in fact rapid. If you (and others) look at my posts again it's only when the entire population of China are held responsible for China's political path that I get indignant. I've noticed in PM that the majority don't seem to be in favour of Obama as president but nevertheless he is. Will he still be president after the next election? I don't know that either but the way the Republicans are acting at present there's a good chance he will be. Nope, I'm neither Republican or Democrat. I'm more interested in what the president of the USA stands for more than which party he represents.

I'm not even in favour of the present Danish government but the only thing I can do is to vote which I did. Unfortunately a tad over 50% of the voting population didn't agree with me. The bright side is that 55% of the population do today so there is reason for hope!

Gordon

Food for thought:-
Which political system would I prefer to live under - the American or Chinese one? The American of course.
The American or Danish one? - the Danish one of course.
I go with what I feel is best for my family and myself and I'm thankful I have that choice.

Originally Posted by Dave D

Gordon I guess we will agree to disagree on some of these issues.

Dave

I also like the fact that you did write "some" and not "all"

Gordon

Hmm Gordon

Under severe danger of starting another rant on current EU affairs.
Why are you opposed to the new Danish government? Now i take it we Germans are paranoid about anything....that has to do with restricting the rights of foreigners .
But seriously.....they cant be worse than those right wing guys who suddenly had the border closed down a good bit again....and made me curse aloud when i read my newspaper....

Alas the Chinese....they will kick their own butts. They will. I did a largish paper and presentation because if you study injuneering here you also have to do some social-economic stuff....

Their net growth is NEGATIVE in many regions. The environmental damage will eventually be more expensive than the products manufactured. For example. Fuel prices will kick their asses too. They use up so much coal that coal transports CLOG their railways. The patters of environmental policy are identical to 19th century Germany, but on a devastating scale.
And discontent is growing. The soviet union fell. Hitler fell. Hell, even the roman empire fell.....

Originally Posted by Zonko

Hmm Gordon

Under severe danger of starting another rant on current EU affairs.
Why are you opposed to the new Danish government? Now i take it we Germans are paranoid about anything....that has to do with restricting the rights of foreigners .

I'll avoid commenting the rest of your post and any rant will cease to exist

Why am I against the current Danish government? they won the last election because of many golden promises tht the opposition said were unrealistic. it's a long story but they (the new government) haven't kept one single promise it made to get elected. I wish I was exaggerating but I'm not and it can be checked. In fact in some cases they've done the opposite of what they promised.

The minister appointed as minister of health was still training to be a nurse and still in't finishes. She's 26 and pregnant as in now on maternity leave. She was 6 months pregnant at the time she was appointed so it wan't a secret. The minister for taxes was appointed directly from university (is I believe 25) and has no work experience. Youngsters aren't any more stupid here than else where but to appoint thm as ministers? It has the ingredients of a Hollywood comedy farce.

Gordon

Originally Posted by Limy Sami

What's wrong with Mark McGrath?

Well for a start he is north of the border of Gods gift to the world

Originally Posted by Zonko

Alas the Chinese....they will kick their own butts.

Their net growth is NEGATIVE in many regions. The environmental damage will eventually be more expensive than the products manufactured. For example. Fuel prices will kick their asses too. They use up so much coal that coal transports CLOG their railways. The patters of environmental policy are identical to 19th century Germany, but on a devastating scale.
And discontent is growing. The soviet union fell. Hitler fell. Hell, even the roman empire fell.....

Most economists agree with you -- their system is completely unsustainable. They're hemorrhaging money to artificially float the growth of their manufacturing sector, but in most cases they're selling goods at a loss. The World Trade Organization complains bitterly about the unprecedented level of government subsidies, but they won't force the issue because key Western retailers like Walmart are so deeply involved in the process.

They're bringing a new coal plant on-line, on average, every day, and like Zonko and I have pointed out, their economic growth plan doesn't allow for environmental restrictions, so scenes like this are *very* common:

Amazing Pictures, Pollution in China | ChinaHush

Originally Posted by camscan

Well for a start he is north of the border of Gods gift to the world

What's the difference between the Scots and the English?

The English have nice neighbours.

Written as a neutral Dane LOL

Gordon

Originally Posted by lazlo

Most economists agree with you -- their system is completely unsustainable. They're hemorrhaging money to artificially float the growth of their manufacturing sector, but in most cases they're selling goods at a loss.

Aha the cat's out of the bag If a country wants success manufacture with subsidies and sell at a loss. It sounds easy enough for all of us to try

Gordon

Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke

Aha the cat's out of the bag If a country wants success manufacture with subsidies and sell at a loss.

As the Politburo member explained when China underbid the Bay Bridge construction project by half a billion dollars: "profit was not a motive in our bid."

California Turns To China For New Bay Bridge : NPR

"When you have a project of that size here in California, it has a multiplier effect. It gives thousands of families those jobs, and then those paychecks and their subsequent spending ends up going back into our economy. And so now all that money has permanently disappeared from California. " - California Assemblyman Luis Alejo

It sounds easy enough for all of us to try

Well, they bagged you with that ploy Gordon ...and the State of California, and Walmart, and Danaher...

Do you think the Communist government is paying for the Bay Bridge because they're philanthropists? Or perhaps they're trying to put all their competitors out of business so they can dominate the market later?

You were offended by my use of the term "economic warfare", but that's exactly what it is...

Originally Posted by lazlo

Most economists agree with you -- their system is completely unsustainable. They're hemorrhaging money to artificially float the growth of their manufacturing sector, but in most cases they're selling goods at a loss. The World Trade Organization complains bitterly about the unprecedented level of government subsidies, but they won't force the issue because key Western retailers like Walmart are so deeply involved in the process.

Therein lies the root of the US problem ( and elsewhere ), the Mo Fu MBA's that are products of the Ivy League business school philosophies, whose short sighted maximising of profits have now gutted their future customer base. I bet they haven't got a plan of how to sell their products back to the ( insert a country ) who made their products, when people in the US, or elsewhere, are living on the financial edge .

When I came to the US in the early 80's, I worked in CA with an ex college teacher ( from NY ) and his prediction was that the MBA's and the ever burgeoning Federal, State and City government bureaucracies would destroy the US.

Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke

If a country wants success manufacture with subsidies and sell at a loss.

That's exactly what they're doing.

They'll continue to do it until all competition has been driven out of business.

Then they can charge whatever they want, and the customers are forced to pay it because there's no other source.

One cornerstone of this economic philosophy is poor quality.
You don't sustain a high-volume manufacturing sector if the products are of high quality.
You rely on producing junk so customers must come back every year to guy the same thing.

- Leigh

Originally Posted by The real Leigh

That's exactly what they're doing.

They'll continue to do it until all competition has been driven out of business.

The British and American auto industry hasn't been doing well for years. I don't know anyone that has a Chinese made car, do you? China is flexing its muscles but there still are many countries competing succesfully against China. As my son said recently, "When you point a finger at someone 3 of your fingers are pointing back at yourself".

Then they can charge whatever they want, and the customers are forced to pay it because there's no other source.

One cornerstone of this economic philosophy is poor quality.
You don't sustain a high-volume manufacturing sector if the products are of high quality.
You rely on producing junk so customers must come back every year to guy the same thing.

- Leigh

Leigh, we aren't going to agree on this so I suggest we just agree to disagree

My only comment to "cheap Chinese junk" is that what I buy from China isn't dirt cheap and it is both good quality and accurate. Is somebody twisting the arm of importers to buy cheap junk? Give a fair price and raise the bar re quality. That applies to all countries.

I can buy a digital 6" caliper here for $10 to $15 but I won't. I wouldn't give a flying hoot where it came from. I just wouldn't trust a caliper at that price.

Gordon

Originally Posted by lazlo

Well, they bagged you with that ploy Gordon ...and the State of California, and Walmart, and Danaher...

Do you think the Communist government is paying for the Bay Bridge because they're philanthropists? Or perhaps they're trying to put all their competitors out of business so they can dominate the market later?

You were offended by my use of the term "economic warfare", but that's exactly what it is...

I don't know anything about the Bay bridge so I can't comment.

I wasn't offended by your comment "economic warfare" as I agree much more than I disagree with you on that. I wonder who started that battle as it was going on ever since I can remember and China was still a closed country.

Gordon

For cryin' out loud, I'm not pro China and certainly not anti American. I deal with people, not governments. If I like what you're selling and I can afford it, I'll buy it. You're a Martian? Who cares

Gordon,

For a businessman you have an appalling lack of understanding of basic economics.

I've never said they _can't_ make quality products, I've said that in general they _don't_ make quality products.
That's why you don't see any cars made there.

- Leigh

They don't need to export cars. They've got a big enough internal market to consume all they can make.

Similarly, there's no economic warfare. They've got four times the population of the US. Eventually they'll have four times the GDP as well. That's just levelling of living standards. Or do you think that there's some god given right for one country's people to automatically live better than another's for an equal level of intelligence and resourcefulness in their population? They're working bloody hard to catch up with us that got a head start on them. Good luck to them!

Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke

I deal with people, not governments.

That excuse has been used by many companies to justify dealings in many very unfavorable situations.

- Leigh