Car Warranties

It was interesting to read one of yesterday's papers and the ad. which suggests that Vauxhall/Open cars have offered a warranty on cars which could extend all of 100,000 miles or 15 years.

Obviously, the small print suggests that a pro-rata warranty reduces as the years go on but it will make the West jump up and re-think what some of the Eastern manufacturers are now offering.

To put it into proper context, it beats both BMW and Mercedes Benz but not Hyundai.
Have spent over £30, 000 on a Merc and having continuing troubles to both level of service and parts failure, it makes one think again.

People like the giant Aldi have offered an unconditional guarantee for three years on their cheap and Chinese tools which gives far more peace of mind than other producers in the West.

My wife has the answer- as always. If people like VW, Skoda and whatever come into line with Herr Opel, we can go out and buy TWO cars and leave one to continue for a whole 20 years once the first has expired.

I might not make the congratulations on being 100 then but you get the idea.

Norm

I've heard a few times before that Hyundai has a good warranty, but I just finally looked it up and it looks like a pretty plain 5yr/100,000km warranty, like many have. Although some have just 3yrs on "accessories" cause they know that's the junk that fails first and all the time.
Personally I'm glad so far that I went with a Mitsubishi Outlander, 160,000km or 10yr, but I'll go through the 160K in about 6yrs, still pretty good. Everytime I used to take the VW in for regular scheduled service it was costing $400-500. Mits costs little more than $100 and they do all the same checks, one difference is they are done more often, every 6K I believe, but still ends up costing less overall and I like the idea that they're not trying to run that same oil for 12K+ like some others.

I think as a whole new crazy innovation idea, car manufacturers could try to spend a bit less on the capability to over 500 different optioned versions of the same car, and spend a little more on a few of the components that matter. Then again do they really want to make cars that would last that much longer? perhaps not rust so quickly? humm
What happened to Toyota's gas pedal problem anyhow? that got quieted down pretty quick...

I was speaking from now having two Mercs, a Beemer MiniCooper and a High and Dri Getz.

Unfortunately, the Getz doesn't play the saxophone too well but at the price who cares?

Norm

SND said:

I think as a whole new crazy innovation idea, car manufacturers could try to spend a bit less on the capability to over 500 different optioned versions of the same car, and spend a little more on a few of the components that matter. ..

Click to expand...

Yes, I agree, like dodge did with the dart, and later the "k" car.

Both of which I thought were just fine.

But then you'll get people on here bitching about how bad they are
and how they are "dated" and how plain they are, never changing...blah
blah, blah...

My ideal truck:
1. get me down the road with 25 mpg
2. no specialized engine electronics.
3. no abs/traction control/ride control whatsoever.
4. simple square lines, plain body, preferebly rust resist
fiberglass/plastic panels.
5. 3 pedals on the floor. I don't mind driving a standard, not at all.
6. wing windows.
7. a plain vinyl bench seat.
8. option of NO a.c.

EDIT:
I think the "k" car was the "post bailout-Lee Iococa" car, and
came with the "100,000 mile or 10 year" warrantee, which was
pretty good, IIRC, and didn't have too much fine print exclusions.

They don't sell the Getz in north america, but the "accent" which is their smallest car here, is still quite low cost/cheap. Hyundai definitely is gaining a lot more market.

As to Mercedes and BMW, Audi and a few others, I never really felt that people where paying that much more for them for the quality/reliability, they are more refined yes, and also a lot of their price is justified by a "status" thing. Some may say if they have the money for one, they have the money to fix it, wouldn't be surprised if some of their engineers thought that way too.

I've driven Audis for over 25 years by choice. Simply love them. All used, and, since I worked in factories all my life, could never afford new, and can't afford "official Audi repairs".

I don't even know what the warranty is on a new one, though do seem to recall that they HAD a warranty for a while that covered everything but your tires. Wipers go bad, they put new ones on.

I got a notice from Audi a month or so ago about a blockage problem with the "moon roof". I am probably the 3rd or 4th owner of this '97, and I am in their database.

Daughter has a Hyundai Santa Fe, and they have covered any problem she has had with it. Tailgate weatherstripping allowed a little leakage, bring it in, we give you a loaner while we fix it.

I am all for our own auto companies, but you can't say that most of the import makers skimp on warranties. I was screwed on a '72 Ford LTD that rotted out. 50/50 warranty. 400 bucks for repairs, make it 800 and we split the cost. Last new car I bought, and unless I hit the Lottery, will never buy another.

As to the above, cost of repairs at "official" any mfg's dealerships are out of sight. Repairs are more of the bread and butter of a dealership than the sale of the car.

Cheers,

George

Car warranties

I suppose that I'm lucky to buy 'new' but I do agree that some dealers assume that if you can buy top of the range and new that you 'have more money than sense'
How wrong can they be?

I was out with the lads( you have to be 76 to get in) last night- all ex-engineers of some sort and we were hashing and bashing my comments.

One has a grandaughter who is living down in London and drives a MiniCooper.
Recently, it needed a Government test done by a dealer and there was a list of supposed defects to get approval for he following year.
She was getting ripped off with a quote for 3 runflat tires and wipers and so on.
Fortunately, her mother's friend checked it all out. Phone call to dealer with 'What the H***?' and the boss came back to be greeted by ' Miss Stephie M***** of Sunday Times, London' The gulp could be heard by everyone in Newcastle 300 miles away.

I was almost ripped off for a modest £9000- but that's another story.

Regards to you all

N

Most modern auto manufacturers offer pretty long warranties, for a simple reason- they dont have to do much repair work on modern cars.

Compared to the dodge darts that doug was praising, modern cars last much longer with basically NO maintaining.

Most japanese cars nowadays go 50K to 100k before they need spark plugs. Certainly its not a good idea, but a modern little 4 banger could probably go 100,000 miles without an oil change, and not self destruct.

I owned a fair amount of those 60's "simple" cars, and they were constantly breaking. I bought quite a few 60's american cars that were only 5 years old for a couple hundred dollars- because they never made it to 80,000 miles without about half the stuff on them breaking.
Did quite a few brake jobs, carb rebuilds, and clutch replacements on great american iron, lying in gutters, on cars that, today, would be considered barely broken in.

Reliability is enormously better today. Modern engines are incredible, in terms of how well they are made, and how well they last.
Hell, even tires are an order of magnitude better. I remember brand new tires lasting well under 20,000 miles, in the 60's, before they were peeling and flat.

My wife put close to 80,000 miles on the stock tires that came with her Honda Element. That would have been unheard of in the days of Dodge Darts-- which, by the way, came in quite a few different configurations.

In 66 alone, you could get two different Dart Wagons, 2 different convertibles, at least 2 different 4 doors and 2 different 2 doors, plus the GT, and you had three engines to choose from, several trim levels, and at least 2 trannies- the pushbutton auto, or the three on the tree, and, I think, in the GT, a 4 speed.
You could easily order 500 different versions of Dart, if you wanted to wait for a special order from the factory.

Its easy to have a selective memory...

But I spent more than my share of time trying to get cranky slant sixes to start, stranded in the rainy northwest in dark lonely places- I will take a modern car any day of the week.

Reis,
I was not extolling the Dart as the fix all to everything wrong.
I held it up as an example as how, year after year, they were the same.

Yes they offered variations. But they ran the same stamping dies for years.

Yes I like electronic ignition, not complete engine management.

I also hold it up as some people don't need nor want the lastest
fashion statement/gadget to get to work every day.

I am a common man, I want a common car. I don't want to pay for
all these frills, as well as having to fix them later.

While Mario Andretti does live in Pennsylvania, I do not
feel the need for performance like he needs.

How big of a truck with simple boxy lines will get down the road at 25mpg ??

Bill

willbird said:

How big of a truck with simple boxy lines will get down the road at 25mpg ??

Bill

Click to expand...

Amazing how the older trucks did get better mileage than todays.

If dodge, in their infinite wisdom, would have put (even the option)
of manual locking hubs on their 2500 4x4 (which I own) the mileage
would have gone from a crummy 10 mpg to around 15. At 20,000 miles
a year, it add's up.

No I don't care to hear how you don't want to get out and lock in the hubs.

I don't mind doing it.

You could leave them locked in year 'round, and it
would be just like it is now, but that would be your option.

Nor do I need 4,000 ft./lbs. of cheek rippling
torque. Along with Artic air conditioning, custom leather seats, 12 drink holders,
cell phone mounts, laptop power points, ABS, traction control, nor
"active suspension".

Doug, your memory is tricking you.

The Dart came out in 1960.
It was completely restyled, with all new stampings, in 1962, some models like the wagons were restyled in 1963, most got a completely new rear end in 1964, and then seriously restyled again in 1965, mostly changed sheet metal in 1966, and new rear ends and taillights again in 1967, pretty much all new again in 1970, brand new Dart Demons in 72, and so on. Usually every year there were enough small changes to headlights, taillights, bumpers, hood shape, C pillar, and so on, that while there is some interchangeability, they look different. Certain Dart models stayed the same for a couple of years- but over the course of the 15 years they made it, they completely restyled it at least 3 times, and changed SOMETHING every year.

As for your simple truck-
I, too, like a simple truck- and, by looking carefully, I was able to buy a new Ford F150 a few years ago, with rubber floor mats, roll up windows, a vinyl bench seat, and so on- but the sad truth is, we are in the tiny minority.
The automakers make what people want- and 95% or more of americans WANT auto transmissions, and a truck with all the trimmings.
Add to that the fact that modern 6 speed automatics (standard on all new Ford trucks) break less, need less maintanence, and get BETTER mileage with most drivers than a manual 3 speed used to. I have employees drive my work truck, and no way would I want them driving a stick- it would be a guarantee for a new clutch about every year. Not to mention a fair amount of dinged bumpers and minor fender benders when they missed a start on hills. Auto trannys have come a long way, and for most people, they are more economical in almost every way, and most kids today never even learn to drive a stick.

The stripper work trucks just plain dont sell.

And as for mileage- well, there has been a horsepower arms race for the last 50 years or so- a 1950's pickup, like my old 54 GMC, had a mighty 100hp. Nobody today will buy a truck with less than twice that, and most want a full 10,000lb towing capacity. That costs, both in dollars and in mpg.
Then we have air pollution rules- they take probably up to a third off the mileage, depending on size of engine. If you could legally drive a smoking polluting truck like my old 60's models, that belched black clouds when you accelerated from a stop, and you could strip it down to a bare metal interior with no AC, no creature comforts, a 30mpg half ton pickup would be easy. But it aint in the cards anytime soon in the USA.

I only remember the darts from about 1974 an on....


Anyhow, I agree completely on the smog rules causing problems.

I read that the EPA has disconnected the relationship of "fuel mileage"
from "tail pipe emmisions", meaning this :
Dose down (run too rich) the engine , to provide extra fuel for the
cat to have a good burn. We don't care how much fuel you use, just
make the emisions out the tailpipe to be composed of pure oxygen, butterflies
and puppy dogs.

I heard somewhere we consume 4 or 5 supertankers of fuel each day (the u.s.a.)
now if you increase the fuel economy say from 15 mpg to 30 mpg, but allow
increase the emissions some what to achieve it with todays teck
(I don't believe the emmisions would double),
you would have to Drill for, haul to a refinery, refine to gasoline, and haul
to a service station, that much less gasoline.

Does anybody factor in all that fuel usage, driven by lower car mileage ?

digger doug said:

I only remember the darts from about 1974 an on....


Anyhow, I agree completely on the smog rules causing problems.

I read that the EPA has disconnected the relationship of "fuel mileage"
from "tail pipe emmisions", meaning this :
Dose down (run too rich) the engine , to provide extra fuel for the
cat to have a good burn. We don't care how much fuel you use, just
make the emisions out the tailpipe to be composed of pure oxygen, butterflies
and puppy dogs.

I heard somewhere we consume 4 or 5 supertankers of fuel each day (the u.s.a.)
now if you increase the fuel economy say from 15 mpg to 30 mpg, but allow
increase the emissions some what to achieve it with todays teck
(I don't believe the emmisions would double),
you would have to Drill for, haul to a refinery, refine to gasoline, and haul
to a service station, that much less gasoline.

Does anybody factor in all that fuel usage, driven by lower car mileage ?

Click to expand...

They stopped making Darts in 76.
So if you are only talking about 74 to 76, yep, its true, they didnt change the sheet metal much- but actually, in the 50's and 60's in general, car redesign cycles were much shorter than now- the average car today has a model life of 5 years or so- it was unheard of to not restyle a car more than every 2 or 3 years back then.


Seems like there are three things making cars today get poor mileage-

Weight- my old GMC pickup had a single wall bed, single wall fenders and hood, a couple of pieces of 1/8" masonite clipped on the doors, and a piece of cloth stapled to the ceiling.
My late model pickup has double wall everything, with insulation and undercoating everywhere, power and padding and plastic everywhere, and lots more. You could probably strip off 1000lbs to 1500lbs from a modern pickup, easily. Of course, it would then be loud, cold in the winter and hot in the summer, and uncomfortable. But it would probably get close to 5 mpg more.

Features- Horsepower, as mentioned, for one. One of my favoritist trucks I have owned had a whopping 105hp. It topped out around 60, downhill, empty. Nobody will put up with that anymore. Now, its considered a no brainer that a truck should go 80mph, with 2000lbs in the back. And get there in about six seconds. Drag Racers in the 60's were slower than a new Dodge Ram. But lots of other crap too.
I grew up in the Northwest, and loggers around here didnt adopt 4 wheel drive til the 70's or so- in fact, they used to laugh at those milktoast Forest Rangers, who had those fancy pants 4WD dodge powerwagons painted puke green. Real men carried chains, and a shovel. Thats good for another 500lbs or so, and probably another 3 to 5 mpg.

Air quality- yep, emissions stuff does cost miles, no doubt about it. But there are now something like 250 million cars now on the road- probably double or triple how many there were when standards were looser. There are just too many of us- and we all have 3 cars. I honestly dont think americans would accept the amount of pollution that cars used to put out. We tend to forget, but it was a LOT.

We block out the parts of the past we dont want to remember.
Just like we tend to overestimate the mileage trucks used to get.
My 54 GMC had a 4speed hydramatic in it, and on a good day it got about 13mpg.
My 62 GMC 1 ton had a big V8 in it, and that puppy never broke 10mpg, empty or full.

A modern, clean, non-polluting pickup with an automatic will easily get DOUBLE the mileage of a lot of those 1960's machines we are so nostalgic about. And be quieter, more comfortable, and carry the same load.

But if you really want a simple truck that gets good mileage, the Indians are bringing over these little 4 banger diesels, and they are cheap, simple, and thrifty..
Mahindra Clean Diesel Pickup Trucks and SUVs

I am leaning towards late 70's cars, slant 6 lean burn.

Running electronic ignition (no points) yet still a carb.

I am o.k. with the chevy T.B.I. if it would be more reliable.

Yes I'm sure your "My 54 GMC had a 4speed hydramatic in it, and on a good day it got about 13mpg."

But My 1999 dodge 2500 gets 10 mpg ! that's with a 5 speed manual (no slip clutch)
and overdrive ! winter, summer, in town or on the freeway, empty.


"My late model pickup has double wall everything, with insulation and undercoating everywhere, power and padding and plastic everywhere, and lots more. You could probably strip off 1000lbs to 1500lbs from a modern pickup, easily. Of course, it would then be loud, cold in the winter and hot in the summer, and uncomfortable. But it would probably get close to 5 mpg more."

No, I think you've got it backwards here, the vehicles are lighter, using thinner steel
and much more plastic. Insulation really doesn't weigh much at all. The car
companies even advertize this fact that they work hard to reduce the wieght.

I am leaning towards late 70's cars, slant 6 lean burn.

Running electronic ignition (no points) yet still a carb.

Click to expand...

I drove a '73 duster with a slant 6 and a one barrel, from Monroe Mi. to Toledo, Oh.(about twenty five miles at 60 mph) With a hole in the oil pan and not a drop of oil in it.

I needed the car for the transmision. Once we got it to the garage, and turned it off to let it cool down,(it was REALLY hot), we were going to push it in the garage to yank the trans. A buddy says "screw pushing it, let's see if it will start"

It did.

digger doug said:

No, I think you've got it backwards here, the vehicles are lighter, using thinner steel
and much more plastic. Insulation really doesn't weigh much at all. The car
companies even advertize this fact that they work hard to reduce the wieght.

Click to expand...

The weight of my 54 GMC was about 3000lbs-
1954 Chevrolet Specifications - Trucks

The weight of a new 2010 Silverado is 4443lbs-
Specifications - 2010 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 Regular Cab 2WD Work Truck Standard Box - Yahoo! Autos

1400 pounds more for the new one, and thats a single cab stripper model.
If you go to a large cab with options, you can easily hit 5000 lbs.

The same thing goes for the Dodges or the Fords.
The old ones weighed about 2/3 what the new ones weigh.

Facts. Again and again, they contradict memory.