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    Quote Originally Posted by dcsipo View Post
    The Luddite revolution took place between 1811-1816, the US peak industrial employment was in the 50s and 60s a 140 years later. Peak employment in IT has not hit yet. If history is any guide here, the Luddites failed in turning progress back. Any backlash against automation will have the same fate. Remember the outcome of the industrial revolution was the specialization of metalwork into zillion directions, and caused the explosion of the industrial workforce. The explosion of automation will require a similar establishment of the support structure, either to automate the disposition of the output or the feeding of the industrial process. The skillset required for that will be vastly different. The real problem here is that scales of efficiencies are rapidly changing, we may have too many people to keep them fully employed, the other question is, whether or not full employment really necessary to assure global well-being of all humans.

    dee
    ;-D
    .
    .
    your talking when cloth making became machine made by many big machines in factories rather than small machines in a home.
    .
    good luck with making cloth in you home or making paper one sheet at a time. even if you learn how to do nobody going to pay you when they can get big factory made items 10 to 1000 times cheaper.
    .
    you think you can make steel at home or make a iphone at home learning what you need and using simple machines ? good luck with that you will need it

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    US tax laws all have about a 30* slant towards finance and retail. Manufacturing gets screwed, so free shipping or no free shipping, the smart money is not in manufacturing in the US. Europe appears to be different.
    .
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    Chinese government often form business partnership for 5 year periods where government might be a 20 to 50% partner and government taxes business ZERO ever. government partner only gets money when business makes profit AND government has little interest over hugh profits so it prefers extra people employed with jobs. if business only makes 5% profits but employs extra people it is considered ok.
    .
    that type of government business management forming partnerships with world wide companies with newer technology and connections with world wide sources is recognized by many governments as better than communist welfare payments to people not working or giving money to people to not work at jobs
    .
    rewarding people who work not just harder but smarter many fail to understand how important it is

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    Hello,
    Allot on this subject can be explained in this book; World Class Manufacturing by Richard J. Schonberger. An engineer at Hughes Aircraft gave me this book many years ago, it was a mandatory read at his division. It goes into detail on our manufacturing downfall and the factors that contributed to the superior quality of Japanese exporters.

    a "must read" if your in manufacturing
    otrlt

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    First the people complain "Machinist wages are terrible"

    Then the people complain "I can't seem to hire anyone"

    And for some, twisted logic, you want to breed up some more
    employees to compete even more for those "terrible wages" ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMF_TomB View Post
    .
    .
    your talking when cloth making became machine made by many big machines in factories rather than small machines in a home.
    .
    good luck with making cloth in you home or making paper one sheet at a time. even if you learn how to do nobody going to pay you when they can get big factory made items 10 to 1000 times cheaper.
    .
    you think you can make steel at home or make a iphone at home learning what you need and using simple machines ? good luck with that you will need it
    Tom,

    I am not clear how does this all relate to the Luddites. The point i was trying to make that regressive views will be overrun and history teaches us that overall progress benefits humanity at the expense of some individuals.



    dee
    ;-D

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    The Amish in my area all sport:
    1. Cell phones
    2. Dewalt cordless tools

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    Quote Originally Posted by juergenwt View Post
    Could be this man is on the right track. I wish our clowns in Washington could get their heads out of the mud and start a program we urgently need. Skilled labor shortage all around. Don't leave it up to private industry alone. They will manage to screw it up so any program will be benefiting only their company. The rest of the country - go to hell.
    Is anybody in Washington even thinking about something like it? They all worry about this little clown in North Korea.
    Russia and China are next door and don't seem to be worried. We are thousands of miles away.
    We had apprenticeship programs, we lost it and now we need it!
    But I guess it is more important to have all the football players standing up.
    Read this:
    The education of Emmanuel Macron – POLITICO
    In 1989 I worked for an Aerospace contractor here in Minneapolis....(starts with Honey....ends in Well)...I graduated from tech school 2 years Tool/Die making and felt I had the world by the balls. I applied for the Tool Maker apprenticeship program and took the required test'.....I do not recall my exact scores, but I had done well. They took 4 people into the 2 year program every 2 years....regardless of people dropping out or not. After getting my scores I was pretty excited....high 90+ % as I recall......then my Union Steward gave me the REAL score. Other people who had taken the test but had scored lower than me were actually higher on the list because of their "bonus points". Points for being a vet (I agree with that one 100% especially since we did military work)Points for gender, points for race.....There were people on that list who had scored 85%....until adding their bonus points....that put them over 100%....basically I was f&*^ed.
    Here is the part that really sucked......most of the people who got into the program dropped out before finishing....they never had a chance of completing it...but they saw a higher wage if they did finish it and decided to try.....in the 4 years I worked there I never saw 1 person get past the first year.
    I guess my real point is.....It Takes a Village to F#$%^ up something as simple as an apprenticeship program. The company could not have done it that poorly without some guidance from Big Brother.

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    Here is the link to Schoenbergers book: http://164.100.133.129:81/eCONTENT/U...ufacturing.pdf

    Toolsteel - thank you.

    This is in some parts a repeat of a post I did many years ago. Needless to say - nothing has changed.

    In the nineties I worked for a large company that was taken over by the leading company from Japan.
    One of their first changes was to introduce the system whereby the worker does his/her own inspection.
    After quality went to hell in a very short time they decided to find out why. A survey was taken of all employees. That included everybody from purchasing agent to engineer to the people on the assembly lines.
    The result was devastating. The finding across the plant was that only 5% of all positions had someone who had finished a formal training program i.e.
    apprenticeship, engineering school, business school etc.
    All others somehow ended up by going from NO qualifications to being SOMEWHAT qualified. But nobody had any idea as to the range of their qualification. How much did this "ENGINEER" really know? What qualifications did this "PURCHASING AGENT" really have?
    They than compared the findings with the numbers of their world leading factory in Japan. The number for people having a formal training was 80%.
    Now it became clear why they could not operate the factory here in the US like they could in Japan.
    You could not shift people around and use them in different positions to inspect their own work because the people just did not have
    the require training. Just teaching how to read a Micrometer may work on one work station but not in another place.
    Needless to say they saw the futility of their undertaking, packed up all patents and prints and left.
    You need a regulated system for training enough qualified personal for the positions in modern manufacturing and the system has to insure a certain level of training. You can not operate a modern manufacturing plant by assuming someones qualifications by looking at a resume or making a few phone calls. Sooner or later that person will fail big.
    If we as a country want to be among the best in the world than our government - be it State or Federal - must assume the responsibility of providing for it's own survival. But so far very few of our leaders have shown any interest in doing so.
    May be it is because of our history where we have for many years relied on Europe to provide us with a never ending supply
    of trained people.
    The common excuse of not being able to afford these programs is nothing but hogwash. We can not afford to continue to do nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by juergenwt View Post
    We can not afford to continue to do nothing.
    You have that same problem with "we". The people who actually run and control the United States would be perfectly happy if every manufacturing job in the country packed up and moved to Botswana. They do not care about it, they do not like it, they do not want it. We just occupy space that could be put to better use as a shopping mall. And most of the highly-educated Blue State nannies feel exactly the same way. "Why would anyone want to work in manufacturing when they can have a high-tech (gag) job as a web designer ?"

    The entire country does not want us. We're niggers in Alabama, good for picking cotton and getting lynched once in a while and scaring the children - "Would you want your son to work in a factory ?!?!?"

    I don't think an apprenticeship program will solve the underlying problem

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    Hello Seamoss,
    You are absolutely right, except for one thing. I am proud to be a machinist, and the fewer of us out there, the better. Pretty soon there will be none.

    $$ coming soon,
    otrlt

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMF_TomB View Post
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    cost of living often not recognized by people who rarely travel or leave their country. too often people who never left their country think they know how things are in other countries
    .
    China pictures i show to people who think Chinese live in straw houses and only grow rice
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    you have to travel the world a bit. often American pride bubble popped like a balloon with a needle when they see a 7 story tall ship being built
    China, like the USA is a land full of contrasts. What I saw the first time I was there was enough to change all views I had held. I found I liked much, much more than I disliked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    The more robots the better. 6 months ago I bought a robot lawn mower. Keeps my lawn much better than I ever could.
    What an innovation is the English lawn? It’s people like you telling me rubbish who make me bitter. Didn’t you say you were Scottish?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMF_TomB View Post
    i gladly make $1/hr if cost of living was 0.50/day
    .
    I bet you wouldn't as you would never be able to afford anything. Take an iphone. People in western countries seem to be able to afford them, but they still cost the same in China.

    So on your $1 a hour, it will take you quite awhile to save up the $1000 to buy an iphone.

    On $1 an hour you are going to live a shitty life no matter where you live.

    I am just waiting for the day white collar jobs get replaced by software. I am surprised it has not yet happened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mechanola View Post
    What an innovation is the English lawn? It’s people like you telling me rubbish who make me bitter. Didn’t you say you were Scottish?
    You must be a delight to have around. BTW that was sarcasm.

    Why would an ex Scot want an English lawn? My robot lawn mower keeps my lawn better than i did. What's not to like about that?

    I'm in favour of just about anything that makes my life easier.

    When's the last time you had a good day? I'm picturing you as having eiher no job or a job you hate and no family.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RC99 View Post
    I bet you wouldn't as you would never be able to afford anything. Take an iphone. People in western countries seem to be able to afford them, but they still cost the same in China.
    Go to China and try counting how many you see without a smart phone. I've just changed my iPhone with a Hauwei P10. Much better IMO.

    Why are Chinese Smartphone Brands Winning? (TSB - Ep.2) - YouTube

    Shenzhen Smartphone Market Walk Through - YouTube

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    I am not saying they do not have smartphones. I am saying those on very low wages can not afford the lifestyle of even the lowest paid in countries like somewhere in Europe.

    Could a worker at foxcon easily afford a European holiday while also owning a car and a house/apartment?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RC99 View Post
    Could a worker at foxcon easily afford a European holiday while also owning a car and a house/apartment?
    I have puzzled over this myself but it doesn't seem to work the way you think. Probably most of the workers at Foxcon have iPhones. And they don't need cars, why the F would you want a damned car if you didn't have to have one, but even there I am surprised at who has a car. And everybody has a house, you can't get married without a house, the girl flat-out won't go for it and you know what an incentive that is, but people either buy them outright or pay them off in five or ten years.

    I have to admit I have no idea how this works but you are mistaken, people in China have tons of stuff you would think they couldn't afford.

    Oh yeah, the Assistant's Mom is going for a holiday to Egypt and Dubai next week, damned if I know how and why would anyone go to Dubai for any reason ? but she's always going somewhere and she lives on her retirement income. She was just a regular average person during her working life, a veteran of the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution, so there's no plantation-owner income there.

    It would be interesting to see an in-depth study of how this economy really works. I have a suspicion that many of the things we believe in kapitalist societies are simply myths.

    (Oh. iPhones actually cost something like $50 to make, so there's another part to the puzzle right there ... )

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    QT: [If the USA would focus more on quality and a higher automation as most European countries do then why not?]

    I really think we do that as well as anybody.. to think the USA not par with Europe is not logical..IMHO.
    Thought more about that and don't think they are "par" due to several factors. In some things the USA is in front, some things USA and Europe are equal while in others it's Europe that is now in front.

    You (USA), through habit or stubborness (?) have clung onto how you've always done things while Europe has changed gear several times.

    I'll give some examples of what I mean and feel make a big difference.

    1. In as good as all shops and companies it's never expected that employees have their own tools. This generally means we work with newer equipment.

    2. Things like healthcare, vacation time, paid sick and maternity leave etc. aren't company decisions. These are regulated by laws. IOW it's not something employers or employees have to use time and effort thinking or worrying about.

    3. The EU (not the same as Europe) manages to compete and trade with China and India and yet wages in the EU increase every year.

    Personally I've no problem with things staying in the USA "as is" but I think many of you will find that you are getting further and further behind most of the rest of the world. No, Trump isn't to blame for that although he certainly isn't helping.

    Given your political set up about the only way things could change is if Congress got their act together and united in their efforts rather than waste time fighting each other. Your president isn't a King or omnipotent dictator. What he (or she) should be is the person that unites the United States for the good of all.

    Unrealistic? Sadly yes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RC99 View Post
    I am not saying they do not have smartphones. I am saying those on very low wages can not afford the lifestyle of even the lowest paid in countries like somewhere in Europe.

    Could a worker at foxcon easily afford a European holiday while also owning a car and a house/apartment?
    Are you telling me that in Australia all companies treat their workers fairly and no one gets underpaid?

    Of course many in China are poor but their numbers are getting less and less. Just think of how much their living standard has gone up the past 25+ years.

    The truth about Chinese travellers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Thought more about that and don't think they are "par" due to several factors. In some things the USA is in front, some things USA and Europe are equal while in others it's Europe that is now in front.

    You (USA), through habit or stubborness (?) have clung onto how you've always done things while Europe has changed gear several times.

    I'll give some examples of what I mean and feel make a big difference.

    1. In as good as all shops and companies it's never expected that employees have their own tools. This generally means we work with newer equipment.

    2. Things like healthcare, vacation time, paid sick and maternity leave etc. aren't company decisions. These are regulated by laws. IOW it's not something employers or employees have to use time and effort thinking or worrying about.

    3. The EU (not the same as Europe) manages to compete and trade with China and India and yet wages in the EU increase every year.

    Personally I've no problem with things staying in the USA "as is" but I think many of you will find that you are getting further and further behind most of the rest of the world. No, Trump isn't to blame for that although he certainly isn't helping.

    Given your political set up about the only way things could change is if Congress got their act together and united in their efforts rather than waste time fighting each other. Your president isn't a King or omnipotent dictator. What he (or she) should be is the person that unites the United States for the good of all.

    Unrealistic? Sadly yes.
    Apprenticeships. Graduating students should know how to use measuring tools..Taught my boy scouts to read micrometers..They all had it in less than 10 minuets.

    Seems we are getting OT:
    I went to a new manufacturing facility in 02 where it was practice for the company to furnish tools..My friend worked at Procter & Gamble in the 70s and they provided a tool box full of company bought tools (measuring and wrenches) for machine repair.
    With ISO certification I would bet many USA shops provide tools.
    Yes small shops and job shops here, UK and Germany likely rely on personal tools (?).
    But I don't know if small shops in Denmark provides tools..perhaps that is regulated by law?

    We(USA)have no problem trading with China. My pet peeve of subsided shipping is logical.. They don't need that as they already have some advantage such as lower wages and often government financing.. No duties should also include no subsidies ..That is just another form of unfair trade my tax dollars should not pay IMHO.

    Sears and JC Penny going belly up is in part because of unfair trade .. free shipping...

    China tools help keep out US made prices down..Fair world trade is logical..That is OK up to "turn around is fair play"

    Yes we subsidize American farming and so have lower price food and American farmers can but bigger tractors.. I have no problem with that and I know a few farmers who farm thousands of acres..I also know some (Amish) who farm hundreds with still using horses and mules.
    US Exports to China (26-216) | US China Business Council

    QT:Given your political set up about the only way things could change is if Congress got their act together and united in their efforts rather than waste time fighting each other. Your president isn't a King or omnipotent dictator. What he (or she) should be is the person that unites the United States for the good of all.

    Agree not just our president but the whole shebang. They all think they are a King..Payolloa / kick back for favor/ secret side money / spending three time what they make some how with not paying taxes / stealing dollars from the senate bank with not paying back or paying taxse..A lot of them should be in jail... at least fired.

    Giving China 30 years to increase air pollution while the rest of the world struggles to reduce it is not logical.

    I had paid heath care from my first job.. so cant complain about that.. agree truly handicapped and people wishing to work should not go with not having health care.. able people should work..and there should be jobs.


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