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Boeing Shuts Down Wichita Plant

jscpm

Titanium
Joined
May 4, 2010
Location
Cambridge, MA
Ahh, Wichita, the (erstwhile) epicenter of aircraft manufacturing and, ahem, unions.

Boeing is closing out its entire Wichita presence, 2 million square feet of under-utilized, over-costly floor space and dividing up those operations to other plants, like its non-union Oklahoma engineering offices (I didn't know there were union engineers, but I guess in Wichita anything is possible).

The stated reason for the closing was that the gigantic Wichita plant was "uncompetitive", ie, read that as "had a rat's nest of fat-cat union contracts and pension plans".

The real problem with these union monkeys is that you can't fire them, so the lazy eggs just accumulate until you have a bunch of people wandering around in 2 million square feet of floor space on 6-hour "lunch breaks".

I once had this Verizon cable guy come to my house to do some wiring and he told me didn't actually work for Verizon. In fact, he didn't contract to Verizon either. He worked under the table for the REAL cable guy who was a union worker. The union guy didn't actually do the work. So, I asked the guy, why don't you go work for Verizon. He said, I can't, you have to be in the union to get a job there. So basically he was the slave of this IBEW guy who just skimmed the profit between what Verizon was paying him and the cash wage he was paying the gump. Apparently the only actual work the IBEW guy did, according to the cable guy, is that he was a bartender at nights. I wonder if that pays as good as milking a union contract?
 
And I suppose that you prefer Fagin and Oliver Twist in a Dickens world?

I agree that unions have gotten bit nuts, but throwing out the baby with the water doesn't make sense.

Lee (the saw guy)
 
Amazing how all those union workers at the Seattle plants pump out planes and make the company billions of dollars.

Same with German union workers... Amazing how they dominate in manufacturing.

So lazy.....

Love your retarded stereotypes of union workers. So funny. Keep watching FOX news you dumb fuck.
 
This has nothing to do with Unions.
Most of the work will be moved to Everett Wa., which is UNIONIZED. And some of the jobs will go to San Antonio and Oklahoma City, to other Union Boeing plants.

Boeing has been doing all kinds of corporate shenanigans for years, moving headquarters to Chicago, outsourcing to Italy and Japan, building the plant in South Carolina- its a lot of card shuffling, most of which is not doing what it was supposed to do.

The fact that South Carolina is right to work was certainly ONE factor in building the plant there- but, also, after the over $3 BILLION the state of Washington has given Boeing lately in tax breaks, grants, new infrastructure projects, and so on, that cow was about dry, and South Carolina ponied up at least $450 Million to get them to build there.

Also, Boeing has been restructuring so that various Boeing parts are not made in house anymore, but by ex-Boeing plants now run by new companies, like Spirit- which is the old Stearman division of Boeing, under a new name and ownership, but still basically a Boeing division in all but name. Spirit is still building Boeing parts in Wichita, and its the largest manufacturing employer in Kansas. That hasnt changed.

In short- this is not about unions - its complicated corporate smoke and mirrors, probably mostly for tax reasons.
 
Well, Boeing has outsourced the 787 all over the world. Do they need any employees in the US?

Do a search for '787 outsourcing' and you will get a ton of hits like

'Excessive outsourcing probably added 140% - 260% to Boeing's 787 launch costs'
and
'787 Dreamliner teaches Boeing costly lesson on outsourcing'

Hope they learned their lesson. You get what ya pay for.
Also, I love how anti union folks always rely on hearsay. According to this guy....or.....my buddies uncle's brother told me....Most of that crap is just bullshit. There was a thread awhile back talking about GM janitors making $40an hour. Makes me laugh. GM employees are humping trucks together for ALOT less than that as we speak.
 
The real problem with these union monkeys is that you can't fire them, so the lazy eggs just accumulate until you have a bunch of people wandering around in 2 million square feet of floor space on 6-hour "lunch breaks".

I call BS on this. I've worked as a manager in both union (IBEW, PACE (now USW) mainly, but some others also) and non-union facilities. People could be fired in both if management grew a pair and worked through the process. Too often though, especially in large companies where managers move around, it is easier for the manager to ignore the problem because they'll be moving on soon enough and then it will be someone elses problem. It's often said that companies get the union they deserve and this is usually true. For individual managers, they often get the union members the previous manager deserved.
 
If I'm not mistaken, Boeing got a large sum of money from the state of Kansas to keep this very thing from happening.

here's a link from a year ago, Wichita newspaper, happily trumpeting the new tanker contract.

Air Force awards Boeing tanker contract | Wichita Eagle

Ries, being the spokesperson for all things Boeing; is it mainly the tanker bid-ness being shifted to Seattle,et al, and was this a secret part to the recent labor settlement?
 
I have no affiliation with Boeing- I just can google.

And I have no idea if there was some secret deal- but I kinda doubt it, as its the same Union in Kansas as it is in Washington- well, actually, the same 3 or so Unions.

I think this about the bottom line, pure and simple, just like pretty much all of Boeing's decisions. The problem I see is that they have replaced all the airplane guys in Seattle who used to run the company with MBA's in Chicago, and about half of their business decisions lately havent worked quite how they planned.
Like paying union Seattle guys to rework all the Italian stuff they outsourced.

My guess is that since they "privatized" the majority of the work in Wichita to Spirit, doing the same work in a plant that is basically the aerospace equivalent of hiring temporary employees, they just dont need the expense of their own factory there any more.

Boeing has laid off a lot of employees, and is outsourcing, as a way to look better on paper- much of the outsourcing has been to US factories like Spirit, which pay less than Boeing did, with worse bennies, and which Boeing can pressure for lower prices. Boeing then can show Wall Street how it is building more planes with less employees- its more "efficient".

Again- smoke and mirrors.
 
The real problem with these union monkeys is that you can't fire them, so the lazy eggs just accumulate until you have a bunch of people wandering around in 2 million square feet of floor space on 6-hour "lunch breaks".

funny how the 'lazy eggs wandering around on 6 hour lunch breaks' are still more productive than their scab counterparts, isn't it?
or maybe the Harbour Report showing that 9 of the top 10 most productive auto plants were unionized is lying (year after year)?

Better yet, maybe you can tell me which union was protecting all them lazy eggs at Kodak and drove it into bankruptcy?
....oh, wait......Kodak was non-union.....it's the other big employer in Rochester NY that's unionized (and not bankrupt): Xerox.


Ries- stop throwing facts at them.....you lost 'em when you didn't start your post with:
"my brother's girlfriend's dog once pissed in front of a union shop, and that's how I know eeeeeeverything about unions"
 
Amazing how all those union workers at the Seattle plants pump out planes and make the company billions of dollars.

Same with German union workers... Amazing how they dominate in manufacturing.

So lazy.....

Love your retarded stereotypes of union workers. So funny. Keep watching FOX news you dumb fuck.

It's a fact that union jobs have a different world of pay and benefits to non-union jobs of the same skill level. The money to pay for that doesn't fall out of the sky. And when business is bad, the union never accepts any responsibility or pay cuts. It's like the mob... business is bad? F-you, pay me. Sales down? F-you, pay me! Verge of bankruptcy? F-you, pay me.

Well, at some point you kill the golden goose. Like what we have here.

I know a lot of people who work at GE and it's a job most blue collar guys aspire to because those who already work there brag about how much they get paid and how they have to do little actual work, and if they screw up, it's almost impossible to get fired.
 
I have worked in union and non union plants both as an hourly worker. I can tell you from my experience you will work much harder and with much stricter work rules in a union plant. You can and will be fired in a union plant. I can also tell you that a unionized facility is managed much better because the union basicly requires that of them due to the higher wages they pay. So where is it that the money is better spent? As rewards for good workers or waisted somewhere else. How would you union bashers like to work 16 hours a day 7 days a week for months on end. Yes it happens all the time and is in our union contract that allows it. Does that sound like lazy workers? Have you union bashers done that for 35 years straight. Lots of our guys have. Do you miss more that 10 days a year. Gets you fired in our mill. Think we have a week union? It is the United Steel Workers Union. Some of you guys have no idea of what you speek of.
 
trivia question of the day:
what's the single most expensive time to run a commercial on TV?

during the Super Bowl- this year, a 30 second spot cost 3.5 million. Contrast that with the most expensive slot on regular-season broadcasts where a 30-second spot can be had for ~45k on Leno up to 200k+ if you want to be on Fox during the simpsons/family guy slot.

links here:
TV Advertising: 'Sunday Night Football' Still Costliest Show | Ad Age Graphics - Advertising Age

Super Bowl 2012 -- Commercials cost average of $3.5M - ESPN


What's that got do do with the subject at hand?
Well, while some of you were busy critiquing whether the dial calipers were being used properly in the GE ad, how many of you gave a thought to the anti-union ad?

Interesting that the same guys crying po'mouf when it's raise time can afford to blow 3.5 million on propaganda.:nutter:
 
Just like anything else, there are good ones and bad ones.

This was my experience with the IBEW:

I had 19 years in at a local manufacturer, the plant votes in a union,IBEW.

We have "the meeting" and the wage scale is discussed. Skilled workers (I.E. my shop, with six card carrying tool and die makers) are relegated to start at $12.00, and top out at $16.50.

One problem, I was making almost double that. THAT is what the IBEW did for me.

BTW, there are only two folks left in the die shop now, and one is the boss.
 
It's a fact that union jobs have a different world of pay and benefits to non-union jobs of the same skill level. The money to pay for that doesn't fall out of the sky. And when business is bad, the union never accepts any responsibility or pay cuts. It's like the mob... business is bad? F-you, pay me. Sales down? F-you, pay me! Verge of bankruptcy? F-you, pay me.

You're a liar. UAW workers took pay cuts and concessions in the last contract that was passed before GM went bankrupt. The UAW also agreed to both pay and benefit cuts so the automakers would get the bailout loans. The NHL player's union agreed to a 25% paycut a few years ago, and management locked them out anyways. I can provide many, many, many more examples if you'd like.

The reality is more like: "Hey guys, we had record breaking sales this year, we had record breaking profits this year even compared to pre-recession numbers, you guys out here on the shop floor put out more product at less cost than before and overall profitability is way up. Oh, BTW, we're stopping spot-bonuses for cost-saving ideas and you're going to get a pay increase that's less than the cost of living went up, we're shifting more of the cost of your health insurance onto you, and cutting back on what we contribute to your 401k"

Well, at some point you kill the golden goose. Like what we have here.

uh-huh :nutter:....that's why Boeing is moving the work back to a union plant? Or are you referring to the economy in general, in which case I ask again: why is it the non-union Kodak went belly-up while just across town at unionized Xerox they're still in business?

I know a lot of people who work at GE and it's a job most blue collar guys aspire to because those who already work there brag about how much they get paid and how they have to do little actual work, and if they screw up, it's almost impossible to get fired.

yep, and I stood in Burger King last night and watched the 2 little whitebread teenagers stand jawjacking and not working while the Mexican workers busted their hump.......when did BK counter help get unionized?:confused:
 
I call BS on this. I've worked as a manager in both union (IBEW, PACE (now USW) mainly, but some others also) and non-union facilities. People could be fired in both if management grew a pair and worked through the process.

So true. Behind every bad employee is a manager that lacks the cojones to deal with em.

It's a fact that union jobs have a different world of pay and benefits to non-union jobs of the same skill level.

Its also a fact that when a big job (think power plant) comes up the IBEW gets called because it is a large pool of skilled labor. Joe Blows Electrical can just say 'Duhhhhwhat???'
The Boeing experiment is a good example of this 'same skill level'. A quote implies that you will get what you pay for, but doesn't guarantee it. They had to buy a whole plant for Christ sakes just to finish the job.
 
Its also a fact that when a big job (think power plant) comes up the IBEW gets called because it is a large pool of skilled labor. Joe Blows Electrical can just say 'Duhhhhwhat???'

Most big jobs have legal requirements to use Union workers. All government projects require union electricians. Around here, all the power plants are government (BPA).
Most large contractors only hire Union, and most big developers too.

Its not because its "a large pool of skilled labor".

It because the Unions work with industry to train electricians, plumbers, carpenters, pilebucks, ironworkers, and other construction trades. Contractors sure dont run 4 year apprenticeship programs, or pay for community college classes- they hire $12 an hour laborers.
If we didnt have Unions training electricians and ironworkers, we would see a lot more buildings collapsing, and electrical fires, like they do in third world countries, where anything goes.

Which, of course, has nothing to do with Boeing.
Boeing does what Boeing wants, always has. Growing up in the Northwest, it was always the 500 lb gorilla in the room- when I was a kid, they employed 150,000 people in an area of only a million or so. So the State did what Boeing said. The Feds have paid for a lot of Boeing's growth over the years, huge multi-billion contracts with cost plus provisions, profit guaranteed. During WW2, of course, the government built plants, then gave them to private industry. The space program, the cold war, today's drones and cruise missiles...
And then there is the import export bank, which makes the US taxpayer stand behind every loan on every Boeing plane sold.
I am not saying this is bad- in fact, I think a lot of it has been really good for the country AND Boeing- but it means that the Union/NonUnion thing is a tiny part of decisions Boeing makes.
Boeing not only has the machinists union, it also has the engineers union- almost no other industry has anything like that. Imagine if software engineers, or mechanical engineers, were in a union.
And yet, somehow, despite being one of the most heavily unionized companies in the entire country, it makes some of the best, highest tech products on the planet, it is one of the biggest exporters in the world, it has invented all kinds of groundbreaking stuff that changed our lives, and it makes humongous profits.
If it can do all that with all those Unions- if it were non-union, it would probably run the entire world, eh?
 
So true. Behind every bad employee is a manager that lacks the cojones to deal with em.

Like the GM example....

The End Of The Line For GM-Toyota Joint Venture : NPR

The End Of The Line For GM-Toyota Joint Venture
by Frank Langfitt

In the mid-1980s, Toyota took over the Fremont plant, one of GM's worst, a factory known for sex, drugs and defective vehicles. And as part of an historic joint venture, Toyota turned the plant into one of GM's best, practically overnight.

Along the way — remarkably — Toyota even shared its production secrets.

But GM would take another decade and a half to begin seriously implementing those lessons in its own factories. That was too long and explains a lot about why it took GM and other Detroit companies so many years to improve the quality of their vehicles....

At the old GM plant in Fremont, Calif., the system had been totally different and there was one cardinal rule that everyone knew: the assembly line could never stop.

"You just didn't see the line stop," Madrid said. "I saw a guy fall in the pit and they didn't stop the line."

Lee, the supervisor who oversaw the plant summed it up this way: "You saw a problem, you stopped that line: you were fired."

Defects Along The Line

As a result, vehicles at the plant had lots of defects. Haggerty saw all kinds of mistakes go right down the line.

"So we had Monte Carlos with Regal front ends and vice versa," he recalled. There were cars with engines put in backwards, cars without steering wheels or brakes. Workers fixed them later in a yard outside — sometimes doing more damage to the vehicles.

At the NUMMI plant you can see Toyota's solution to this — a thin nylon rope that hangs on hooks along the assembly line. It's called the andon cord and when pulled, it will stop the line.

'One Bolt Changed My Attitude'

The first pull summons a team leader. Workers try to correct the problem on the line. If it takes too long to fix, the line stops. The andon cord also plays a surprisingly cheerful little song that workers can chose. For longtime GM workers who switched to the NUMMI system, all this was a revelation.

When Madrid trained in Japan, he saw workers stop the line to fix a bolt.

"That impressed me," he said. "I said, 'Gee that makes sense.' Fix it now so you don't have to go through all this stuff. That's when it dawned on me. We can do it. One bolt. One bolt changed my attitude."

In December 1984, the first car, a yellow Chevy Nova, rolled off the assembly line at the NUMMI joint venture. At the opening ceremony a union rep named Joel Smith vowed that the new plant would be a big success: "Mr. Toyota, if you would please deliver this challenge to our friends in Japan: We intend to build the best quality cars in the world."

Early on the numbers coming out of the NUMMI plant were astonishing.

"The best measure they use is how many defects are there per 100 vehicles and it was one of the best in America," said Jeffrey Liker, author of The Toyota Way. "The same for Toyota cars made in California as the Corollas coming from Japan — right in the beginning."


Steve
 








 
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