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Increasing interest from people about entering our trade

Spinit

Titanium
Joined
May 13, 2007
Location
Central Texas
Hello fellow members I trust this thread finds all of you doing well. My purpose in posting is a item of interest to me and that is the increased number of people interested in moving over to the machine shop or entering the trade. Compared to the past many years I can not recall such interest in the trade since back in the 70's when everyone was sold on how lucrative it was so they were told. That was a different time with different technology. (The good old days for some!) It used to be the case a person could start out at the bottom and work up yet today companies require or prefer their employees be experienced so that they can start working and producing right away not having to learn from being inexperienced to start. There seems to be a belief that just anyone can just walk right to the machine shop and start immediately no problem at all. I have had to learn a lot over the years and to learn it I had to do it and be exposed to it and this requires time. I have had to train newer people also and they are different than my generation was years ago. They seem toi fight being trained in my opinion. Any feedback on this issue will be very interesting. Regards...
 
I'll tell you one thing - I thought I was the shit fresh out of school and asking to start at $20/hr. because of my degree.

What I did find out is I really didn't know shit until I scrapped a bunch of parts, wrecked a few CNC machines and had to straighten it all out on my own because I was too ass-puckered over the whole ordeal and not wanting to have the shop pay a guy to come fix it.

It took me a few years to get up and over the $20/hr. mark and it's been a struggle to even hold that ground let alone progress upwards. But that's mostly because I've jumped around a lot and not every shop has money to burn
 
CNC has changed a lot. Today you have people who never spent a day in a shop taking a job as an operator, loading a vise and hitting cycle start. They walk out the door and tell people they are machinist's. It takes away from the truth and from guys who can not only flip an insert but can tell you why it cuts. It takes years to be a machinist it takes years to understand how to hold tolerances and choose the right method and tools. These operators / machinists give employers the wrong ideas and make them think they can grab a guy off the street for 10 bucks an hour and all will be great.
I was ten years old when I walked into my uncles gear house to work for the summer pushing a broom. I loved the smell, I loved the sounds I immediately wanted to learn how to do this and have never looked back. I had a natural talent for the work and could never learn enough. I still can't. We need a resurgence in schools and training. I attended one of the best public trade schools on the east coast and had four years of machine shop training. I have owned a shop since 1986 and put three kids through collage. I'm the only one in my house without a degree but have done pretty good. Collage is great but can't be the only option for our kids. Some people just can't afford to do it, I know my parents couldn't I am lucky I came out of high school with a trade. We need it again.

Ron
 
To overflow, yes cnc has changed everything I think. I try not to tell people I am a machinist because of this. I usually say I am a tool & die maker or I am a cnc programmer (I am all 3 btw, started my career in tool & die, took the 4 year apprenticeship and eventually moved into cnc and now I program, set-up, machine, design, etc...). If you say "I'm a machinist" you get that misconception that you run a machine loading and deburring widgets. The production "machinist" has nearly ruined the trade I think.
 
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There are actually some Machinists, but most, today, are "button pushers". Program is fed to the machine from computers. You do nothing BUT push a button and load stock and unload pieces.

You guys, today, think that you have to be running CNC. MONTHS to learn, and you ain't gonna pay for them to learn on your dime.

Machinist, one machine, I learned from Fitter, bid on a VTL, 2 weeks to learn, produced good parts. Bid up, 2 weeks to learn, made bigger good parts. There is nothing magical about cutting metal. You have to have a feeling for it, but it is not the overwhelming thing. Any body can learn to run a lathe. You guys seem to make it as though only the smartest can. I have known some dumb people who were assigned to our earliest TNC machines They could not cut it on conventionals.

Georg
 
depend on machines. i have also done manual machining 34 years.
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most bigger cnc machines i have used take a month to learn the basics of the control. often cnc operator manuals are 1000 to 3000 pages long. obviously not that easy to run. takes longer to learn to program
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i often have a 5 ton casting with a surface out of flatness spec. i often have to restart taking into account g17, g19, g41, g42, g43, g49, g55, g56, g57, g58, etc about 200 other codes and if i miss one i crash a $2,000,000 machine and a $50,000 part is scrap
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i also have run every cnc machine i have used in manual mode very often, not sure where the ideal a cnc is never run in manual mode comes from. i have never ever seen a untrained manual machinist that could use a complicated cnc without training.
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sure if somebody setups a cnc i suppose somebody else could load parts and just press 1 or 2 buttons on extremely simple parts. most jobs i get are not like that.
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as for finding people to work as a machinist. give them a job out of high school at 20% higher pay than average with the potential to make 200 to 400% of minimum wage in 3 to 5 years and i have never ever seen a problem finding all the people you could ever possibly want. some places have trouble finding people who have the exact skills and training they want. if they expect to not need to train people then yes they might have trouble finding people. that problem has been around thousands of years and has never been a big problem ever. just figure on the need to train people. it is the cost of doing business. end of story.
 
All great points Thank You. In my place of employment the company has a long history and also has a vast amount of "Proven" CNC programs on our servers. Plus there are always new things which must be programmed and proven and then stored into the server and labeled "Proven" .

Those also have a setup sheet which will tell us if there is a tooling kit or fixture to use for that job allowing us a organized method of finding all the tooling, setting up the job , and then producing the first piece for inspection.

At times depending upon tooling available changes must be made to run a job and editing must be done either simple or extensive. That is no problem for me and I can program also yet it is more economical and effective when the programmer uses his software and generates a program and so the company does not wish wasted time by machinists programming all of their programs.

This is a common model. It has it's advantages. I can do either CNC setup and simple type programming and run or whatever. I have learned about materials and tooling and so I know how to achieve the end product accurately.

What amazes me is that often the programmers I have met must be told the process of how something is made because they do not know yet they will be a whiz at the programming especially if they work with experienced machinists.

Button pushers are around yet the past couple of years or more employers do not want inexperienced people to train because it lessens production which must be out the door now. Also there are people who have experience to offer.

There is a need to move people into our trade though and so that need will be filled one way or the other and I think it will be clear how that happens when it becomes absolutely necessary to finally just do it. Schools can offer a good start.

I do not feel that pay is on the right level for new people nor the experienced ones either and may quite never be overall.
 
They walk out the door and tell people they are machinist's. It takes years to be a machinist it takes years to understand how to hold tolerances and choose the right method and tools. These operators / machinists give employers the wrong ideas and make them think they can grab a guy off the street for 10 bucks an hour and all will be great.
I think that the unions have in large part destroyed the title of "machinist" by classifying every position that they can as machinist, so it doesn't have the meaning that it once did.
It is a completely different trade nowadays.
 
I think that the unions have in large part destroyed the title of "machinist" by classifying every position that they can as machinist, so it doesn't have the meaning that it once did.
It is a completely different trade nowadays.

I can't comment on how much is the union fault in the USA but from reading many of the threads and posts in PM then I think most smallish US shops compete more against each other rather than with companies in foreign countries. If this is the case then it'd help explain what I consider low wages for the trade in general. How many "old timers" knowing what they know today would advise their kids and grandkids to become machinists?

There isn't much IMO that can be done before saying "I'm a machinist" gets an approving nod from friends and winks and smiles from the local hot chicks :)

If it's to be regarded as respected job then it should command a respectable wage.

Scandanavian Countries Benefit From High Wages - NYTimes.com
 
Over here its the pay levels. You have to be at the top end of this game working a fair bit of ot to earn the average uk sallery of circa £26K a year.

For less efforts, less responsibility and a hell of a lot less skill anyone good enough to be at those levels can do something easier and cleaner than mess with metal. Over here in the uk a whole bunch of jobs pay better. Add in a complete sector that has only started to re-offer apprenticeships and the American model of changing jobs, not progression in a company and you have the mess the uk is starting to be in in our sector.

Its common to see local positions of cad operator being given only 20% above minimum wage salleries (£15-16K). Thats for some one thats conversant in 2d+3d and is at least productive in a software package like inventor or solid works. Few companies over here will pay for there staff to get trained on specific software either which seams crazzy for the costs of what a 3d package goes for these days. Then there surprised what they design - draw is not only clunky, but often functions like crap and takes a lot more work and cost to build than a better design part, given yet more lead to our offshore competition.

As to recomending people to go into the game, if there just leaving school theres going to be a uk wide skill shortage that whilst being present for a decade now is still going to get a fair bit deeper. Fingers crossed as the labour pool dries up prices will rise along with pay rates. Theres very few people out there in this game in the 25-35-40 age range for the simple fact there was few to no apprenticeships in the later part of the last century and the earlier part of this one. Most of the good apprentices have either gone to other things or are in there later 50's now. As that last group retires, theres going to be a lot of opertunities open up for experienced - semi capable people who are prepeared to step up to the plate.
 
I used to hear the old saying a lot "All we need are button pushers". It is true Tom that it is very complicated and add to that all the other stuff unrelated to the actual CNC and there is a whole wealth of knowledge required to be efficient. I use my CNC all the time in the manual mode because I often must make something I need to use in my run. If I go over to the manual I have to do clean up over there in respect for the great manual machinist who runs in that area. We have tons of stuff for him to do over there and all those manual machines are fully used. It fits a nitch.

I think a lot of the older fellows will likely work longer now a days as they move towards retirement. Instead of retiring completely many will need to support themselves working as much and as long as they can. This will meet a need and also hopefully allow them to be around to work with the new fellows and teach some things. Being less dependent upon SS or whatever is a good thing.
 
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Interestingly enough....the other day I was at a store purchasing an oil change for my motorcycle. The pimple-faced boy who was running the register was friendly enough and the place was a bit slow. He looked at my work shirt I was wearing and said "____ ____ tool?"...." is that some sort of hardware store"? We had a ten minute conversation about tool making and CNC machines. The kid didn't even know what a milling machine or lathe was. I got through to him by saying "have you ever watched How its Made on Discovery channel?" He said he had. I told him I get to do that and cooler shit they never show. It makes me wonder what use guidance counselors are in high school. The kids don't know what we do....let alone if they would be good at it or like it.

In my opinion......we get better people in this trade if we get people who choose it.....rather than those who decide they need to do something to get out of Mom and Dads basement.....anything.
 
I think you have a very limited and biased view of unions. I worked in a union shop for a long time and the people that you talk about were called "machine operators", not machinists.

Big B

I think that the unions have in large part destroyed the title of "machinist" by classifying every position that they can as machinist, so it doesn't have the meaning that it once did.
It is a completely different trade nowadays.
 
I would guess just Machinist. They have had unions for a long time and what happened is that Unions and companies decided to rank Machinists in order to have a way to grade them. This way they might use class A,B,C or whatever. I have seen that done. The idea was that A might be the highest paid. Also they might have certain skills listed for each one which encourages a man to get better. I have also seen it done with other workers like welders and so on.

Even in the Industrial Press publications there is a trend to use the term "Machine Operator" or "Operator" things like this will change over time and is not considered to be derogatory anymore.
What were the other positions called before unions?
 
I think we overlook the main purpose of the cnc machine, it is to produce parts faster with less labor. The less labor the lower the cost. Just think about the simple things that have been done to the cnc mill. The chip augar the auto oiler the auto washdown, all those were jobs at some point in time. I used to oil all the machines and sweep up the chips when I started. That same shop is now all cnc and there is no one is doing my old job. I worked full time changing vises oiling and cleaning and putting away tooling for jobs. Now all that is done by the machine for the most part. It is not gonna change they will make everything easier, if you owned a shop would you want to be at the mercy of some highly skilled employees or would you want the skill to be in the machine and owned by you.
 
What were the other positions called before unions?
I am mostly referring to the positions that are represented by the machinist union, such as assembly workers and machine operators. Management types don't know the difference in skill sets that should separate the pay scales. The unions are mostly interested in raising their membership numbers even when they dilute their own bargaining power for their members compensation levels.

Look at what just happened at Boeing. How many members of the machinist union at that company actually have anything to do with machining?
 
manual,

"I think that the unions have in large part destroyed the title of "machinist" by classifying every position that they can as machinist, so it doesn't have the meaning that it once did.
It is a completely different trade nowadays. "

There are few UNIONS with enough power to "destroy he title of Machinist." There is no such thing any more, and that is because you owners want ignoramuses who have no concept of "machining". . Push a button, put stock in, take parts out.

It is that easy, why pay UNION employee 15 an hour to do what you can pay 7.25 for?

Spinit,

" This way they might use class A,B,C or whatever. I have seen that done. The idea was that A might be the highest paid. Also they might have certain skills listed for each one which encourages a man to get better. I have also seen it done with other workers like welders and so on."

YOU may have seen UNIONS that do so, I never have, and I have only belonged to 3 of them. EVERY Member who was in any class job was paid the same BASE pay as an old timer was. IF I could do m,ore work than a 60 YO could,, I, of course made more money, but that was because we were on an incentive program. I was a better, partly because I was younger, Op, I could outwork all my old teachers. I made more, period.

You people seem to think that everybody you hire has only one pace. You don't pay them to produce. You give them a job, on a CNC, and they can't really be expected to beat the program. So they make 9 bucks, period.

Oh, for Christ's sake, Manual! 7 fucking percent of the other than Gov working pop IS UNION. THAT fucking few are fucking YOU? Open your eyes!!!

7 fucking percent has all you Republicans shitting your pants!

UNIONS have been trying to get Corps to re-instate the apprenticeships. Corps no longer feel that they need trained people. Anybody can punch buttons. Witness most of you.

Spinit,

" Being less dependent upon SS or whatever is a good thing. "

I would bet you that most of those who have paid INTO SS have a better pay back than they have from YOUR pension plan You have a 401. BFD.. My SS is about 2.25 times my pension. For most of us, SS is the biggest part of our income. Is my 401 viable? Yes it is. I got money in there. I take some out, as I have to, every year. I am not as poor as some of you "Owners".

I don't owe on those rental machines, for one thing. Most of you don't even OWN the fucking things. Rental charge is more than you can make off them.

I would hate to try to compete with someone who would cut prices to the bone to keep the knackers away. But you HAVE to. I feel for you. You let your alligator mouth, I can do that, overload your hummingbird ass. You really cannot do that, unless you buy yet another machine.

That is where the manual machinist shines. Yes, I can make that. No, I cannot pump out 1500 per day. I make them one at a time, but they will all be correct. Not a CNC product that 1500 will ALL be fucked up to the same degree.

Tolerances come into play. CNC has them. Good enough. Within tolerance. Machinists, and there are very few, anymore, pride themselves on being dead on.

I am preaching to the Choir. Half of you, or more, are button pushers, 25% or more are laid off and had to try to make a living on your old iron, very few have decent jobs.

George
 








 
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