Electric cars - Tesla and global - Page 3
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 3 of 9 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 164
  1. #41
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Washington
    Posts
    4,351
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1876
    Likes (Received)
    3351

    Default

    Something that very few Europeans understand when talking planes, trains and automobiles in the US vs Europe.



    This summer I will drive from my home in Yacolt, Washington to Des Moines, Iowa . . . roughly 1800 miles / 2900km which I will cover in 3 long days in a 1950 GMC pickup. . . This is roughly halfway across the USA, a distance that is similar to driving from Madrid Spain to Warsaw Poland.

    I will be meeting up with other old truck nuts who have driven from as far as Boston and Miami (1300 - 1700 miles the opposite direction). Total distance like driving from Madrid to the shores of the Caspian Sea. Yes, the USA is bigger and more spread out than Europe by a huge margin and people drive these distances often enough that they would need two cars or a rental setup of some kind if they had an BEV in the garage.

  2. Likes Scottl liked this post
  3. #42
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    uk
    Posts
    11,833
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3153
    Likes (Received)
    5158

    Default

    ^ And in that reduced space there’s over twice as many of us!!!!!

    As a kid we went to America, drove from San Antonio Texas upto the grand canyon and back. What strikes you is not just the vast distances, but the distances between places. You can't drive 20 miles almost any-were in the uk with out passing through small towns - villages. There one of the bits that stood out was a chap at a gas station in Arizona who we stopped and chatted with, literally nothing for a 100 miles in any direction.

    As to vast distances, as chargeing gets ever quicker it may get to a point its no longer the limitation, tesla do something like 80% charge in 30 minutes, that’s almost certain to continue to improve.

    Your nominal 600 miles a day, how many times do you pull over and stop in thoes 600 miles? 2 or 3, 20 minute stops (Pee stretch legs and find food :-) and you could do that currently in a tesla!!!! Add hotels with parking + over night charging and you could probably just do it in 2 on route charges each day.

  4. #43
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    barcelona, spain
    Posts
    2,062
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    409
    Likes (Received)
    1123

    Default

    I disagree.
    We understand very well the fact that the avg US driving distance per day is 35 miles.
    We are also generally well educated, free schooling and all.

    I understand perfectly well that Tesla owners have a 91% satisfaction rate.
    Far surpassing any other car.
    So, actual owners, over 100.000 of them, feel that BEVs work really well for them.

    The truth is that those who get an electric car, overwhelmingly like it.

    It is of course true that not all people want a BEV,
    nor is it appropriate for their use.

    But for perhaps 90% of people a BEV will work perfectly well.

    And for about 80% of the 75 million people buying a new vehicle this year, a long-range BEV will be very much cheaper.
    You know, the global market.
    In general, people will accept some compromises, when big financial incentives exist.

    You are quite right that if You really, really want to drive (very) long distances non-stop, a BEV wont work for You.
    This is a pretty unusual corner case, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by motion guru View Post
    Something that very few Europeans understand when talking planes, trains and automobiles in the US vs Europe.

  5. Likes Greg White liked this post
  6. #44
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Washington
    Posts
    4,351
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1876
    Likes (Received)
    3351

    Default

    I added an aux tank to my GMC (more as a joke so that the guy I was doing my last long trip with would think I was getting fantastic fuel economy) . . . he would be calling me on his cell phone saying he would need to stop and get gas and I would casually reply that I still had half a tank. Both tanks fill from the same filler neck on the side of the cab so I was good for 31 gallons at 16 mpg.

    On a 600 mile day - figure 10-11 hours of driving with only one stop for fuel (typically coordinated with a meal) and a few stops for site seeing / potty stops and then back on the road. Usually you try to be in a hotel less than 14 hours after you checked out of your last hotel to keep your sanity.

    The blue truck in the Grand Teton photo is the subject vehicle - https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/hc...p/3735541.html

  7. #45
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Woodland Hills, Ca. and some times Hutchinson, Ks.
    Posts
    2,083
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4
    Likes (Received)
    379

    Default

    I drive from Los Angeles to Hutchinson Ks regularly it is almost 1400 miles exactly. I do that in two or less days of driving. About 300 miles of that are not interstate highways, there is a lot of truck traffic but these are NOT main routes A BEV traveling in that section would have a hard time finding a charging station, not impossible but very inconvenient.

    Once we get on the "mother road" I40 what was Route 66 it is 70-75 all the way to the coast. I regularly stop in Albuquerque, it is 800 miles one way 600 the other. My car will do 350+ miles on a tank of gas, one stop one day, two the next. There have been times where I drove straight through. A BEV could not do that or make my normal trip in two travel days. I do think BEV's are a good fit for commuting and running errands but, they have some significant short comings where long distance driving and time is involved.

    Steve

  8. Likes Scottl liked this post
  9. #46
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Washington
    Posts
    4,351
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1876
    Likes (Received)
    3351

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    I disagree.
    We understand very well the fact that the avg US driving distance per day is 35 miles.
    We are also generally well educated, free schooling and all.
    Really? Free as in tax subsidized (just like US Schools?) If truly free, it appears you are getting what you paid for.

    You missed the point - you are talking "average" people across all age groups? What is the average price of a Tesla vs the median income of a US Citizen that drives the average number of miles?

    "Average" miles driven for the demographic that can afford a BEV is closer to 60 miles / day. In that average are enough days where you need to cover 200 - 300 miles to make life with a BEV sub-optimal.

    Where do the Average drivers live and what is the Average temperature versus the BEV battery efficiency / capacity at this Average temperature?

  10. Likes Scottl liked this post
  11. #47
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Northern Illinois
    Posts
    3,075
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1318
    Likes (Received)
    1556

    Default

    I'll say. Four or five years ago, when my wife was still working, I tried to interest her in a BEV. She drove 60 miles a day, no chance of charging at work, but it certainly looked doable. My argument was that we'd get the tax advantages as long as they lasted, and that the overall maintenance should be lower on an electric vehicle. She ended the discussion with, "What if I want to visit my mom after work?"That would have added another 50 miles easy.

    I see BEVs making inroads in metro areas, but not replacing IC engine cars and trucks, not even close. The further away from the big cities you get, the fewer you'll see.

    Dennis

  12. #48
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Central Ohio USA
    Posts
    3,357
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    18
    Likes (Received)
    1451

    Default

    Bingo. Our next car will be a BEV. Wife's commute is 25 miles round trip, we have a garage with decent electric service already, and a few other cars to choose from for the extra-long hauls if needed. We're looking at both the gas savings and reduced maintenance costs -- especially since all the rolling stock is over 10 years old, and most gets under 20 MPG (either by design or because it's hard to keep your foot out of the accelerator due to, umm... spirited driving.) Workplace is pretty progressive and has charging spaces, if needed, and the Tesla dealer is literally right around the corner from her office. So overall, the logistics happen to work out well for us.

    The Volvo is pushing 200k, so another year or so and we'll be shopping.

    Chip

  13. #49
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Australia (Hobart)
    Posts
    3,022
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    421
    Likes (Received)
    1931

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by motion guru View Post
    Something that very few Europeans understand when talking planes, trains and automobiles in the US vs Europe.



    This summer I will drive from my home in Yacolt, Washington to Des Moines, Iowa . . . roughly 1800 miles / 2900km which I will cover in 3 long days in a 1950 GMC pickup. . . This is roughly halfway across the USA, a distance that is similar to driving from Madrid Spain to Warsaw Poland.

    I will be meeting up with other old truck nuts who have driven from as far as Boston and Miami (1300 - 1700 miles the opposite direction). Total distance like driving from Madrid to the shores of the Caspian Sea. Yes, the USA is bigger and more spread out than Europe by a huge margin and people drive these distances often enough that they would need two cars or a rental setup of some kind if they had an BEV in the garage.
    Yeah - now try overlaying a map of Australia on that, consider there's about 23 million people and one hell of a lot of desert..... could be a really long way between fuel stops. There are still some areas where, long range tanks and jerry cans included, you still need to arrange for fuel drops.

    I regularly drive over 1000 kms in one hit. 360 kms to visit friends for a weekend.

    A BEV could easily replace my Subaru sedan, no problem, but no way ATM could one replace my turbo diesel flat tray light truck.

    An American friend of mine once commented that Europeans generally had no idea of the long distances Aussies and USA citizens took for granted, just travelling inside our own borders.

    PDW

  14. Likes Scottl, motion guru liked this post
  15. #50
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Northern Illinois
    Posts
    3,075
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1318
    Likes (Received)
    1556

    Default

    Traveling the west with my family as a kid, I used to get a kick out of the signs in the gas stations that read, "Last gas for 80 miles." I used to ask my Dad, "How do we know he didn't just put that up to get more business?" Must have been enough jaded people who didn't believe the signs, because by the seventies they were official gov't highway signs, "No services next 80 miles."

    Dennis

  16. #51
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Cape Cod, Massachusetts
    Posts
    4,900
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1133
    Likes (Received)
    1876

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Modelman View Post
    Traveling the west with my family as a kid, I used to get a kick out of the signs in the gas stations that read, "Last gas for 80 miles." I used to ask my Dad, "How do we know he didn't just put that up to get more business?" Must have been enough jaded people who didn't believe the signs, because by the seventies they were official gov't highway signs, "No services next 80 miles."

    Dennis
    Lol, I used to wonder the same thing when I saw those signs.

    But others have it worse. In Lapland they have to worry about going past a poronkusema. Fail to observe a poronkusema, and the reindeer pulling your sled will get sick and stop pulling, and you'll probably freeze to death in the Finnish wilderness.

    (A poronkusema is the distance a reindeer can walk until it has to stop and pee. If the driver of the sled doesn't make them stop and pee they will keep walking until they get sick and die. In Lapland this is probably going to happen in a cold and lonely place. So be nice to your reindeer and remember the poronkusema. Which is approximately 7.5 kilometers for the curious)

    We worry about re-charging stations, but nothing is new under the sun when you travel )

  17. #52
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    uk
    Posts
    11,833
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3153
    Likes (Received)
    5158

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PDW View Post
    Yeah - now try overlaying a map of Australia on that, consider there's about 23 million people and one hell of a lot of desert.....

    PDW
    Yeah but with a population of just 23 million, you guys are even less significant than the Long range USA drivers. presumably you Australians don't even bother to have cell phones, with such vast areas with no signal under the same logical argument????????

    Saying new tech is no good because it only suits some 90% of the worlds population is a really retarded argument. Yes theres range issues still, yes the charging networks are struggling to catch up realistically its going to be a couple more years of intensive build - additions on that side just to keep up with current demand. Surely it would have just bean the same as when petrol cars first came out?

    One thing thats as good as certain, there’s now enough charging locations in the uk you can drive any were you wish with one. Yep there’s detours to charge still, but that will change, ever more service areas will add charging as demand picks up so distances you have to detour of the main roads will decrease as time rolls on.

    Then you get places like china, india and other seriously dense population centres, the reduced pollution and big sales volumes are were the true future auto-mobile market lays. Theres massive growth potential for car ownership through out most of asia. Now do you stupid rich Americans want to sell em great battery powered cars or do you want the chines to supply em?????????

  18. #53
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Melbourne Australia
    Posts
    4,954
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    628
    Likes (Received)
    1785

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Farmer View Post
    . In Lapland they have to worry about going past a poronkusema.
    Are you from Lapland? Finnish?

  19. #54
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Melbourne Australia
    Posts
    4,954
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    628
    Likes (Received)
    1785

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by adama View Post
    Yeah but with a population of just 23 million, you guys are even less significant than the Long range USA drivers. presumably you Australians don't even bother to have cell phones, with such vast areas with no signal under the same logical argument????????
    Stop with the question marks, surely 8 at a time is too many. Surely 8 question marks is just a clown act.

    Did you watch Billy Connelly or Ross Noble downunder by any chance?

  20. Likes motion guru liked this post
  21. #55
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Melbourne Australia
    Posts
    4,954
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    628
    Likes (Received)
    1785

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by adama View Post
    Yeah but with a population of just 23 million, you guys are even less significant than the Long range USA drivers.
    Perth. Western Australia is the most remote Capitol city in the World. Please try and tell us about re-charging stations in the middle of the Nullarbor Desert.
    Run that past Motion Guru again from post # 43, He was the one that did the size overlay. Why are you getting so butt hurt???????? Is it that France is bigger by a factor of 2+, or that we have cattle stations that big????????

    Phil???????? with the 8 questions marks. Apparently that means you know shit from clay.

  22. Likes Scottl liked this post
  23. #56
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Cape Cod, Massachusetts
    Posts
    4,900
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1133
    Likes (Received)
    1876

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by machtool View Post
    Are you from Lapland? Finnish?
    Nope. I just try to use my reindeer wisely.

    And if that doesn't work out, they make delicious sausages. The Captain Cook Hotel in Anchorage Alaska makes a lentil soup with reindeer sausage that is one of the world's greatest meals.

  24. Likes adama liked this post
  25. #57
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Norfolk England
    Posts
    1,527
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1374
    Likes (Received)
    937

    Default

    [QUOTE Apparently that means you know shit from clay.[/QUOTE]

    Oh No,now you tell me. Where were you last week when I needed that info?

  26. #58
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    barcelona, spain
    Posts
    2,062
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    409
    Likes (Received)
    1123

    Default

    Yes, free schools.
    As in approx 30 countries in Europe, with excellent educational track records.
    Far surpassing the USA on the PISA tests, for many years or longer.
    We pay for it via taxes, free at private level.
    And generally excellent education, mostly in central europe and northern, for perhaps 70-80% of the 300+ million people in europe.

    2.
    An average new Tesla model 3, about 35.000 € list price.
    With no subsidy, in the future, vs heavy subsidies today.

    Will be affordable, and much cheaper, for approx 80-90% of EU citizens.
    Because it costs half per month overall, vs any similar ICE vehicle.

    Because it costs less per month, for an upscale vehicle, vs the common Toyota Corolla basic starter sedan, most popular car in the world, 40M units sold so far, globally.
    About 200€ per month go for fuel, for working most people with travel needs, EU.
    This gets You about 166 litres, for 2000 km, per month.
    A BEV costs approx 20€, or 180€/month less.
    2160 € cheaper, per year.


    Quote Originally Posted by motion guru View Post
    1.
    Really? Free as in tax subsidized (just like US Schools?) If truly free, it appears you are getting what you paid for.

    2.
    You missed the point - you are talking "average" people across all age groups? What is the average price of a Tesla vs the median income of a US Citizen that drives the average number of miles?

    "Average" miles driven for the demographic that can afford a BEV is closer to 60 miles / day. In that average are enough days where you need to cover 200 - 300 miles to make life with a BEV sub-optimal.

  27. #59
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    barcelona, spain
    Posts
    2,062
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    409
    Likes (Received)
    1123

    Default

    Scottl - The cost per mile will be about 3x-5x less than current ICE cars.

    About 500 Tsla cars have tracked their battery state publicly.
    So far, in 3-4 years, they have lost about 4-5% of capacity, overall, in upto 200.000 miles of use (corner case).
    The trends are uniform, and similar.

    This proves even major heavy use in distance traveled does not kill the batteries fast at least, if at all.
    This proves that (tsla) BEV batteries do not die, quickly.

    The current trends indicate battery life, to 80% capacity, about 15-20 years.
    Thus, battery failure is not an economic concern.

    The current cost of charging a BEV, Spain, is 0.04 €/kWh, nighttime BEV rate.
    Similar everywhere.
    Similar in the USA.

    Night-time electric power is really cheap. It is essentially free money for the utility.
    A "tank" of power, 100 kWh, costs 3-4€, vs 80$ for gas.
    About 15 times less.

    Today, +/- "nothing" uses the grid or infra systems at night.
    Thus, any use paid-for, is all "found money" to the utility ie extra income with near-zero marginal costs.
    Utilities "love" BEVs, with good reason.

    Electric power globally is set to get much cheaper.
    98-99% of all new PPAs in the USA and globally, were with PV or wind. 2016.
    Typical prices are 3-4 cents, or 50-200% less than alternatives.

    It is really cheap to install e.g. 200% peak PV, and use the excess in heavy industry like alu refining etc.
    The process is exponential.
    Last years installs PV+wind, about 73 GWh iirc, are more than global total installs, less than 3 years ago.
    == 73 Nukes.
    You could "throw away" the excess, or use it to power BEV cars.
    Obviously, BEV cars will, and are, be the preferred choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    If the economic distortions caused by subsidies go away what will be the real cost of ownership including replacement of batteries when eventually needed?

    ... which may not be so economical with Europe's rapidly rising electric costs as they pursue changing to "green" energy sources.

  28. #60
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    barcelona, spain
    Posts
    2,062
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    409
    Likes (Received)
    1123

    Default

    I quite agree.
    "Supercharging" will cost an extra price. Most wont buy it.
    The 2500£ or 3000€ or so, is probably right.
    So the new Model 3 Tesla will cost 3000 $ "extra" with supercharging, and You can pay it later when You need to.
    Sure.

    It wont matter to 60-80% of users. Imho.
    99% of all charging is at home. Very cheaply.

    Taxi companies, fleets, professional users, will buy supercharging, I think it is obvious.
    They will use it as little as possible, vs nighttime cheap rates.

    But, they will use it, when needed.
    And be very profitable, due to much lowered total costs of ownership.

    Most EU houses and most-all garages/commercial buildings have 3 phase. It is really common, cheap.
    A 3-phase charger plus/cable, home, is == 500€ for a tesla.
    22 kW max.
    Most single homes wont have 22 kW peak power, though, and could only charge at about 11 kW.

    Making up a charge-point for a BEV is a box, 4 wires, 2 connectors, one hour.
    Conduit often.
    I will do mine myself, and get a local sparky to stamp it for 100€.
    This is permitted and legal.
    I could, legally, stamp it myself - but prefer not to.

    ( We have legislation allowing experienced professionals to self-certify for electrical and plumbing etc.
    You can self-register as an electrician, trained, if You want to.
    As an ex air force technician, I both qualify and know how. I would not want the liability - for the 100€.)

    I have 22 kW available, std 380V like everywhere.
    (Rare 220V 3-phase exists, in very low % of installations.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Your figure completely ignores that for this model Supercharger access will not be standard and many estimates place it as £2,500 per vehicle.


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •