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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5 axis Fidia guy View Post
    As a Wisconsinite I am somewhat glad this deal came thru, however, between Amazon, Uline, and every other company with help wanted signs on the door, they are going to have a very difficult to find the thousands of workers to pass the piss test.
    Despite some people's penchant for trying to make everything under the sun political and personal, this is exactly what some of us were discussing. The existence of the issue itself, as well as how to remedy it. ( Is it even possible at this point? )

    Ironically, in that short time, we now find ourselves dealing with this, too. We are so busy that I have started looking at the possibility of hiring someone ourselves. And let me tell you, it's not so damn easy. I am considering looking for a youngster that we can train up, or a retired person that wants to be active and make money without dealing with the financial repercussions to their Social Security. The latter means less hours here, and the former means more of my time spent not working on customer parts. Paying the wage is actually the easiest part of the puzzle. It's finding someone that fits and is worthwhile that is the biggest challenge.

    That was a long way to say that I think that Foxconn will be finding themselves facing the very same issues that existing employers in the region have been facing for some time, now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahnrad Kopf View Post
    Despite some people's penchant for trying to make everything under the sun political and personal, this is exactly what some of us were discussing. The existence of the issue itself, as well as how to remedy it. ( Is it even possible at this point? )

    Ironically, in that short time, we now find ourselves dealing with this, too. We are so busy that I have started looking at the possibility of hiring someone ourselves. And let me tell you, it's not so damn easy. I am considering looking for a youngster that we can train up, or a retired person that wants to be active and make money without dealing with the financial repercussions to their Social Security. The latter means less hours here, and the former means more of my time spent not working on customer parts. Paying the wage is actually the easiest part of the puzzle. It's finding someone that fits and is worthwhile that is the biggest challenge.

    That was a long way to say that I think that Foxconn will be finding themselves facing the very same issues that existing employers in the region have been facing for some time, now.
    I suspect that we are about 10yrs away from seeing a major improvement.

    It will take that long for young people entering middle school and high school to get the opportunity to even see the need and desire to choose a career beyond working at Star Bucks or other retail to career.

    The educational system will need to shift gears also and the parents need to challenge their children differently. There are a lot of high tech jobs that have the potential to pay well but yet they have a cultural stereotype of not being cool.

    It will take a paradigm shift in the mindset of the educational system also to get to where we need to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy2 View Post
    It will take a paradigm shift in the mindset of the educational system also to get to where we need to be.
    I am in agreement with you. The big problem facing ( likely ) the whole country is the question of ( for the moment accepting that it will change ) what we will do until that time. We ( collectively ) can squirt out button pushers and sweep-hands, but what will we do for actual Machinists and Toolmakers? What will we do for actual, critically thinking, skilled craftsmen? I know more than a couple business owners in this trade and they are ALL looking for those kinds of people, to hire them. But they are not having much success in doing so.

    So what do we/will we do collectively until that day when they are more commonly available?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5 axis Fidia guy View Post
    As a Wisconsinite I am somewhat glad this deal came thru, however, between Amazon, Uline, and every other company with help wanted signs on the door, they are going to have a very difficult to find the thousands of workers to pass the piss test.
    If the pay and or benefits are enticing , they won't have a problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spud View Post
    If the pay and or benefits are enticing , they won't have a problem.
    It sounds simple when we say it, but it actually isn't. I can personally take you to a few shops in this area that pay better than most others, and are great places to work, but can not get people to hire on right now. The shortage and market are such right now, that mediocre people can be very picky. It literally can be a matter not of battling dollar amounts, but rather of someone deciding which direction they want to drive, or whether they want to drive for 5 or 10 minutes less. ( and I have personally seen it actually come down to that )

    I find it a very bizarre situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahnrad Kopf View Post
    I am in agreement with you. The big problem facing ( likely ) the whole country is the question of ( for the moment accepting that it will change ) what we will do until that time. We ( collectively ) can squirt out button pushers and sweep-hands, but what will we do for actual Machinists and Toolmakers? What will we do for actual, critically thinking, skilled craftsmen? I know more than a couple business owners in this trade and they are ALL looking for those kinds of people, to hire them. But they are not having much success in doing so.

    So what do we/will we do collectively until that day when they are more commonly available?
    You might laugh at me for saying this but one huge potential pool might be as close as our local hobby shops. That is where there are a lot of young gear heads hanging out having fun doing what they like to do.

    I'm not talking the buy it and fly or drive it crowd but the kids that like fixing or building the stuff that they are into. A lot of the core skills that these kids have often match very well with the skill sets we are seeking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahnrad Kopf View Post
    I find it a very bizarre situation.
    Working in manufacturing sucks. I go into a lot of shops. Many pay well and have good benefit. I still wouldn't want to work there.

    The work is highly volatile. 6 months of mandatory overtime. 50 or 60 hours a week. Then overnight half the shop gets laid off and everyone is down to 30 hours a week. Management has no idea when things will pick up.

    The hours are stupid and not flexible. I have no idea what it is about machine shops, but they trip over themselves with pride about how early they start. Typical day shift in a machine shop is 6:00 to 2:30. Who the fuck wants to get to work at 6am? If you're a single parent, forget it. There are no day cares open at 5:30am. I've seen many shops that start at 5:00, or even 4:00 am.

    The work is often super boring and tedious. Even outside of the "assembly line", most work in a shop is just a grind. I know other clerical jobs and many white collar jobs can be really boring, but at least you are clean and cool/warm.


    I don't have a great answer to those problems, but in a world where manufacturing jobs don't pay very well, it's not hard to see why companies struggle to fill jobs.


    Recently I was asked to set up some CNC programs for a customer. The operator told me she was making $12.50/hr and pretty sure the were going to fire her because it was so hard to find someone to help her with her 2 kids in the morning so she could make it to work by 5:30.

    She can work at a restaurant or department store and make the same wage with a flexible work schedule more less volatile workload.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    Working in manufacturing sucks. I go into a lot of shops. Many pay well and have good benefit. I still wouldn't want to work there.

    The work is highly volatile. 6 months of mandatory overtime. 50 or 60 hours a week. Then overnight half the shop gets laid off and everyone is down to 30 hours a week. Management has no idea when things will pick up.

    The hours are stupid and not flexible. I have no idea what it is about machine shops, but they trip over themselves with pride about how early they start. Typical day shift in a machine shop is 6:00 to 2:30. Who the fuck wants to get to work at 6am? If you're a single parent, forget it. There are no day cares open at 5:30am. I've seen many shops that start at 5:00, or even 4:00 am.

    The work is often super boring and tedious. Even outside of the "assembly line", most work in a shop is just a grind. I know other clerical jobs and many white collar jobs can be really boring, but at least you are clean and cool/warm.


    I don't have a great answer to those problems, but in a world where manufacturing jobs don't pay very well, it's not hard to see why companies struggle to fill jobs.


    Recently I was asked to set up some CNC programs for a customer. The operator told me she was making $12.50/hr and pretty sure the were going to fire her because it was so hard to find someone to help her with her 2 kids in the morning so she could make it to work by 5:30.

    She can work at a restaurant or department store and make the same wage with a flexible work schedule more less volatile workload.
    here here
    what is wrong with starting at a reasonable hour, it's just old tradition.
    ok yeah if you are in something like construction sure where you need day light,
    but really is any one working in machine shops that aren't artificially lit.
    and the machines sure don't care what time they start.
    and climate control the damn shop even the machines like it better.
    keep up with the times

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    Hello,

    Now living in Wi, from Mpls I see this first hand. At our Mpls factory, 30 years in the USA. We cannot find people who want to work in CNC. We have very good pay for the industry. Medical, dental, climate controlled, plenty of room to advance, tuition reimbursement, profit sharing and decent hours. You pay for your own uniform. We work with the UofM and have had good luck with engineer students and interns.

    We have CNC lathes - 2 - 9 axis, CNC mills- 2 to 5 axis. OD and ID grinders, CMMs, all the good stuff. Even finding a inspector was a challenge.

    Things have changed. We all see it, but what do we do.

    I am 40 years old, this is all I have done. My dad was in it. It has been great to me and my family. Taken me around the world several times and allowed me to work on amazing projects to this day. Yes, there is overtime, early hours, lots to learn, but if you are into it, there is no limit to where it can take you. It's work, like anything.

    Now days, I donate and volunteer at a few tech schools, and I do not see the desire or drive. Each student has a smart phone, and none of them have G&M codes on it. You can have EVERY bit of information at your finger tips, You Tube video are a great way to learn. But no one does it.

    Until "people" want to excel, until "people" have interest, things will only get worse.

    I am tired of talking about the Skills Gap. We need to keep trying, working towards making it better. I am honestly worried about the next 4-5 years in this industry. People who always find something to be unhappy about are the wrong people. You want to be your best or you don't.

    The world has changed, people have changed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahnrad Kopf View Post
    It sounds simple when we say it, but it actually isn't. I can personally take you to a few shops in this area that pay better than most others, and are great places to work, but can not get people to hire on right now. The shortage and market are such right now, that mediocre people can be very picky. It literally can be a matter not of battling dollar amounts, but rather of someone deciding which direction they want to drive, or whether they want to drive for 5 or 10 minutes less. ( and I have personally seen it actually come down to that )

    I find it a very bizarre situation.
    That's the nature of markets.
    The demand for labor is higher than the supply.
    Hardly bizarre, just that the last decade has got the employers spoiled.
    It's a good sign for a growing economy.

    Some people value time wasted in traffic over time with family.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy2 View Post
    You might laugh at me for saying this but one huge potential pool might be as close as our local hobby shops. That is where there are a lot of young gear heads hanging out having fun doing what they like to do.

    I'm not talking the buy it and fly or drive it crowd but the kids that like fixing or building the stuff that they are into. A lot of the core skills that these kids have often match very well with the skill sets we are seeking.
    My kiddo and I just designed and 3D printed new steering knuckles for his rig because we got tired of replacing them.
    He won't be going into manufacturing, or even engineering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    My kiddo and I just designed and 3D printed new steering knuckles for his rig because we got tired of replacing them.
    That's probably the last part I would 3D print

    [QUOTE=Miguels244;3137126He won't be going into manufacturing, or even engineering.[/QUOTE]

    Especially after that 3D printed part fails at 60 on a twisty road

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    Quote Originally Posted by triumph406 View Post
    That's probably the last part I would 3D print



    Especially after that 3D printed part fails at 60 on a twisty road
    RC car...sorry I wasn't clear.
    The existing design simply wasn't designed to handle what we've done to the rest of the drive train.
    This weekend, scout camp out up at Mt Evans...
    We'll be putting the ice spikes on and running 60 mph on the lake.

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    Some people have careers, which are about achievement, advancement, new challenges. Always upward! Work field is a part of identity. Ask these people who they are and they'll likely tell you "I'm a machinist" or "I'm a boat broker" or some other aspect of what they do at their day job.

    For lots of other people, work is work - it feeds the kids and pays for the house. Being a lathe operator or the desk clerk in a warehouse or the receptionist at a vet are actually pretty interchangeable (in very broad terms.)

    Which means drive time or traffic time or daycare loom large, because frankly loading blanks into your CNC lathe for $13.25 per hour is not actually any better than filling out forms and answering the phone at the local vet for $13.25 per hour, and they don't start at 5am.

    For most of the people on this or related boards, machining or at least manufacturing are special - of inherent interest, or directly related to a business or artistic goal, or the like. For a great many people they employ, not so much.

    Also, when anybody writes "pays well for the industry" or "pays well compared to local shops" I cringe. That's irrelevent. What matters is "pays well compared to all other employers for people of comparable labor value". If your shop is paying $13/hr while the other shops pay $12/hr but the local lumber yard is paying $17/hr the lumber yard will virtually always have first pick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    RC car...sorry I wasn't clear.
    The existing design simply wasn't designed to handle what we've done to the rest of the drive train.
    This weekend, scout camp out up at Mt Evans...
    We'll be putting the ice spikes on and running 60 mph on the lake.
    That makes sense!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    Some people have careers, which are about achievement, advancement, new challenges. Always upward! Work field is a part of identity. Ask these people who they are and they'll likely tell you "I'm a machinist" or "I'm a boat broker" or some other aspect of what they do at their day job.

    For lots of other people, work is work - it feeds the kids and pays for the house. Being a lathe operator or the desk clerk in a warehouse or the receptionist at a vet are actually pretty interchangeable (in very broad terms.)

    Which means drive time or traffic time or daycare loom large, because frankly loading blanks into your CNC lathe for $13.25 per hour is not actually any better than filling out forms and answering the phone at the local vet for $13.25 per hour, and they don't start at 5am.

    For most of the people on this or related boards, machining or at least manufacturing are special - of inherent interest, or directly related to a business or artistic goal, or the like. For a great many people they employ, not so much.

    Also, when anybody writes "pays well for the industry" or "pays well compared to local shops" I cringe. That's irrelevent. What matters is "pays well compared to all other employers for people of comparable labor value". If your shop is paying $13/hr while the other shops pay $12/hr but the local lumber yard is paying $17/hr the lumber yard will virtually always have first pick.
    Seasonal work at Lowes pays 13.50 to start here.

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  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy2 View Post
    I suspect that we are about 10yrs away from seeing a major improvement.

    It will take that long for young people entering middle school and high school to get the opportunity to even see the need and desire to choose a career beyond working at Star Bucks or other retail to career.

    The educational system will need to shift gears also and the parents need to challenge their children differently. There are a lot of high tech jobs that have the potential to pay well but yet they have a cultural stereotype of not being cool.

    It will take a paradigm shift in the mindset of the educational system also to get to where we need to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zahnrad Kopf View Post
    I am in agreement with you. The big problem facing ( likely ) the whole country is the question of ( for the moment accepting that it will change ) what we will do until that time. We ( collectively ) can squirt out button pushers and sweep-hands, but what will we do for actual Machinists and Toolmakers? What will we do for actual, critically thinking, skilled craftsmen? I know more than a couple business owners in this trade and they are ALL looking for those kinds of people, to hire them. But they are not having much success in doing so.

    So what do we/will we do collectively until that day when they are more commonly available?
    Sorry folks...why would someone go into a smelly, field that doesn't pay as well as retail?
    There was a time when manufacturing paid better than other fields, it doesn't now and never will.

    As I said, pee clean work at lowes make 13.50 or make 17.50 using actual skills starting at 4am.

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    I remember about 10 years ago meeting a guy who worked nights at a local shop running 3 Haas VMCs

    guy paid him 9 bucks an hour

    now even tho Haas' are dog slow, he had better be billing at lest 60 an hour

    So even if the guy was inefficient and even if it was expensive stock, he was getting paid nothing

    This is what i think of whenever I see someone whining about 'no one wants to do this'

    Killer job when I was in high school was at a place called 'Nuclear Metals'
    Paid more than twice what anyone else paid. Line out the door

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    I have a kid who lives in Seattle- Restaurants there start at 13 to 15 an hour, plus tips. He can make 200 bucks in a 4 hour shift some nights, as a server. Its clean, warm, you get a free dinner, and you dont get dirty. Thats what machine shops are competing with around here.

    The good employees have always been scarce on the ground. I have posted a couple of times here a quote from a study of machinists apprentices in 1900- and the stuff they said about the quality of worker they could get- my favorite quote is
    "lazy, idle, stupid, careless, vicious or any one of a dozen other indesirable things" and those were shops that paid well for the industry.

    Another good quote from about 1905-
    too few of the desirable types were interested in becoming machinists due to-
    1- lack of social status of machinists
    2-poor working condtions
    3-poor quality of apprentice training in many shops
    4-lack of opportunity for advancement of shop trained men
    5-the desire on the part of many boys to make as much money as possible in a short time

    thats 100 years ago- and things havent changed.

    If you pay enough, you can find good kids out there- but you have to have a civilized working environment too.

    There are shops near me that are notorious for racism, crappy worn out tools, boring repetitive work, low wages, and nasty jobs- and, surprise surprise, they are always hiring. The place that rewelds the aluminum beds of garbage trucks, with garbage remains still in em, all week every week, mysteriously constantly needs new employees.

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    All those Millennials making $25 to $50 or more per hour (most of it illegally tax free) waiting tables and bar tending as a "career" need to look around.

    What will they notice?

    Virtually all bar and restaurant workers making those big bucks are YOUNG.

    There simply isn't much opportunity for "older" folks in these types of easy, high-paying service jobs.

    After all these Millennials get some years on them - and are no longer needed down at the pub, they will realize it's going to be quite difficult to make the kind of money they had enjoyed making all those youthful years.

    Reality will be a bitter pill to swallow for those folks...but they will have to.

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