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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by juergenwt View Post
    So many people pissing and moaning against a National Heath Care System. Nobody has a better Idea as can be seen by the fumbling around going on in Washington. Eight years and they still have not come up with something worthwhile. The great Trump was going to give us a wonderful System the very next day. They are not going to bite the hand that feeds them - the Insurance Industry.
    I will say it again: " You can always count on the Americans to eventually do the right thing.....right after they try everything else first". Sad!
    1. The government should NOT be in the insurance or health care business AT ALL.
    2. If the government would put insurance industry under the Sherman anti trust act, we
    would have true competition, and lower prices.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Leetle child laying dying in London hospital, government states "child must die"

    and parents cannot take child elsewhere.

    Our president Trump has stepped up to do whatever is possible, second is the pope, who
    also offered care for this child.

    Stuff your "state run healhcare" righteousness and be gone from this forum, period.
    Its not quite as simple as that when you actually read the case
    As for your healthcare I dont care at all and ignore 99.9% of gordons threads.
    What I will say is in my mind the only thing i get for my tax that benefits me is the nhs and my insurance wont run out before im dead or better.

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by pressbrake1 View Post
    Its not quite as simple as that when you actually read the case
    So explain it all to us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    So explain it all to us.
    No read it like I did.
    I dont criticise your country , dont talk nonsence about mine, I get bored with people from the us citing Britain is fucked because of the nhs when its the only good thing left! though its being destroyed by mass immigration

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    Quote Originally Posted by pressbrake1 View Post
    No read it like I did.
    I dont criticise your country , dont talk nonsence about mine, I get bored with people from the us citing Britain is fucked because of the nhs when its the only good thing left! though its being destroyed by mass emigration.
    The only way we have of "reading it" is from the american press....

  8. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    1. The government should NOT be in the insurance or health care business AT ALL.
    2. If the government would put insurance industry under the Sherman anti trust act, we
    would have true competition, and lower prices.

    1. Say's who?
    2. The Sherman anti trust act is in effect now, or am I wrong? How come it is not working?

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  10. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by juergenwt View Post
    1. Say's who?
    2. The Sherman anti trust act is in effect now, or am I wrong? How come it is not working?
    1. Says ME the TAXPAYER, I'm tired of paying for 14 yo girls having 6 kids out of wedlock.
    As well as 700 US military bases's worlwide.


    2. The insurance industry, along with the railroads are EXEMPT from the Sherman antitrust act.

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  12. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonlight machine View Post
    The only troll here is the obsessed OP. How many more times are you going to post about health care. Never happy till you get a pissinmatch going on PM, and never about machine work.
    A good thread might be, why is the Danish mental health system a complete and abysmal failure?

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    2. The insurance industry, along with the railroads are EXEMPT from the Sherman antitrust act.
    And Pharmaceutical companies too.

    The Hep C drug was developed by a VA doctor. Taxpayer dollars. He patented it, then sold the patent for $400 Million.

    A 12 week course of those pills costs $100,000.

  14. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSquier View Post
    Thanks for this info Dee. I'm curious, though. Why do you think we couldn't pay for MFA with DOD funds? I think your suggestion is great, just wondering about this.

    Squire

    Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, Tahlequah OK
    MFA? Your kidding, right? You want a giant version of the V A "health" system????? The same assholes that gave my grandfather a clean bill of health every time he went in complaining of headaches until they diagnosed stage 4 brain cancer after 2 years of giving him pain pills. The same assholes that pumped my dad full of opiates when he walked in the VA "hospital" short of breath. We buried him 2 weeks after he went in. The last thing we need is more government involvement. Look what we have now, my last insurance quote was 960.00 / Mo. for the wife and I. 16,800.00 deductible! Just get a subsidy from the Gov. No wonder there is no cost control, doctors, hospitals just bill and gov / insurance pays. Look at Lasik eye surgery, no insurance pays for it. Lots of competition prices lower every year. How about the dental implant business, full mouth full of teeth implanted in a day. No insurance pays, price goes down every year. Competition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSquier View Post
    Thanks for this info Dee. I'm curious, though. Why do you think we couldn't pay for MFA with DOD funds? I think your suggestion is great, just wondering about this.

    Squire

    Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, Tahlequah OK
    the DoD budget is $521 billion the total healthcare spending in the US is 3 Trillion or about 6 times the US defense spending. Health care has to be self funded. we spend about $9K or so per capita. The Swiss and the Norwegians spend about 6K or 30% less per capita and they are the second and third highest cost behind the US. So if we got rid of of profit in health care and spend just as much as the Swiss and the Norwegians do per consumer we would save a cool trillion, and i bet we would not suffer much in quality and access.


    dee
    ;-D

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  17. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonlight machine View Post
    MFA? Your kidding, right? You want a giant version of the V A "health" system????? The same assholes that gave my grandfather a clean bill of health every time he went in complaining of headaches until they diagnosed stage 4 brain cancer after 2 years of giving him pain pills. The same assholes that pumped my dad full of opiates when he walked in the VA "hospital" short of breath. We buried him 2 weeks after he went in. The last thing we need is more government involvement. Look what we have now, my last insurance quote was 960.00 / Mo. for the wife and I. 16,800.00 deductible! Just get a subsidy from the Gov. No wonder there is no cost control, doctors, hospitals just bill and gov / insurance pays. Look at Lasik eye surgery, no insurance pays for it. Lots of competition prices lower every year. How about the dental implant business, full mouth full of teeth implanted in a day. No insurance pays, price goes down every year. Competition.
    I'm very sorry to hear about your family's horrible experience with VA. There is no such thing as a perfect system, though. And if you think the government is bad, how much more will private markets screw you? They're about profit, period! Believe me, they don't give a crap about your well being.

    As I mentioned earlier, it's an established fact that Medicare is operated more efficiently than are private insurers.

    I am a Native American. I rely on the government -- Indian Health Service-- for my care. I suffer from three life threatening conditions, and I'm waiting for a liver transplant. I have to say that my care has been excellent and they have spared no expense on me. I think they do a great job. My brothers live in areas not served by IHS and they have Medicare. Both are very happy with the care they receive. One brother gets all his care at Vanderbilt University Medical Center, one of the top facilities in the world! So....not everyone is unhappy with government run medical care.

    You have every reason to hate VA'S guts. I would if I were you. I don't blame you if you never reevaluate the care they provide. I just wanted to show you a different side of the coin about two other government programs that do work very well.

    Squire

    Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, Tahlequah OK

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  19. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcsipo View Post
    the DoD budget is $521 billion the total healthcare spending in the US is 3 Trillion or about 6 times the US defense spending. Health care has to be self funded. we spend about $9K or so per capita. The Swiss and the Norwegians spend about 6K or 30% less per capita and they are the second and third highest cost behind the US. So if we got rid of of profit in health care and spend just as much as the Swiss and the Norwegians do per consumer we would save a cool trillion, and i bet we would not suffer much in quality and access.


    dee
    ;-D
    Thanks Dee, I see your point. Saving a trillion bucks would sure be nice!

    Squire


    Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, Tahlequah OK

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  21. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonlight machine View Post
    MFA? Your kidding, right? You want a giant version of the V A "health" system????? The same assholes that gave my grandfather a clean bill of health every time he went in complaining of headaches until they diagnosed stage 4 brain cancer after 2 years of giving him pain pills. The same assholes that pumped my dad full of opiates when he walked in the VA "hospital" short of breath. We buried him 2 weeks after he went in. The last thing we need is more government involvement. Look what we have now, my last insurance quote was 960.00 / Mo. for the wife and I. 16,800.00 deductible! Just get a subsidy from the Gov. No wonder there is no cost control, doctors, hospitals just bill and gov / insurance pays. Look at Lasik eye surgery, no insurance pays for it. Lots of competition prices lower every year. How about the dental implant business, full mouth full of teeth implanted in a day. No insurance pays, price goes down every year. Competition.
    you are mixing up government provided health care and a single payer system. Medicare does not employ a single doctor who provides health care to anyone, the VA and DoD and the federal prison system does. Medicare pays private providers for their services on a negotiated reimbursement schedule. Private providers may not like the reimbursement from Medicare and prefer private insurance because it pays more, but that cost us the consumer more. If there was a single payer, the private providers can have three choices, piss up a rope, take what Medicare pays, or try to collect money from you. See how long that would last. If you had a single payer you could vote out the people who did not control your cost, right now you are at the merci of the insurance companies. Who do you trust more, your own representative or some schmuck who wants to rob you blind? You cannot compare non essential stuff, like dentistry or lasik, to life saving treatments, when was the last time you shopped around for a quadruple bypass?


    dee
    ;-D

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  23. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcsipo View Post
    you are mixing up government provided health care and a single payer system. Medicare does not employ a single doctor who provides health care to anyone, the VA and DoD and the federal prison system does. Medicare pays private providers for their services on a negotiated reimbursement schedule. Private providers may not like the reimbursement from Medicare and prefer private insurance because it pays more, but that cost us the consumer more. If there was a single payer, the private providers can have three choices, piss up a rope, take what Medicare pays, or try to collect money from you. See how long that would last. If you had a single payer you could vote out the people who did not control your cost, right now you are at the merci of the insurance companies. Who do you trust more, your own representative or some schmuck who wants to rob you blind? You cannot compare non essential stuff, like dentistry or lasik, to life saving treatments, when was the last time you shopped around for a quadruple bypass?


    dee
    ;-D
    Add to this:
    A health insurance Company hires a new CEO. His job - to improve the bottom line of the company. The best way to do it fast is to cut benefits to the bone and get rid of people costing your company the most (the old and the sick). Two years later - big improvement on the bottom line. That was his job. CEO moves on to another company with a big pay raise. So now the insurance company is making more money, the CEO is making more money, some older and sick people no longer have insurance coverage and the rest pay higher premiums. Great system!

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    There is one thing that leaves some hope. I don't see the crowd that occupied the previous threads trying to tell us how beautiful Obamacare will be for everyone when it becomes effective. They also were pro-government managed care, pro-single payer system and other usual Utopia Island projects.

    I'm sure even the most ignorant of them finally realized what pile of shit the nation was thrown in by Obamacare. One sweet dream is out, more to go. We must be dunked into each pile to understand what it's filled with, right? Until we fully destroy our healthcare system.

    And I still remember one guy (his name and address in Denmark should remain a mystery) who said that he didn't see any problem in making dramatic changes in healthcare without any serious and prolonged analysis. "No need to think everything over and over again. Just do it and correct as you go". The wise man didn't see any problem in using the whole nation as a bunch of Guinea pigs by politically motivated assholes. But he deeply cares about our well being based on the number of threads generated by the fine gentleman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelP View Post
    There is one thing that leaves some hope. I don't see the crowd that occupied the previous threads trying to teach us how beautiful Obamacare will be for everyone. They also were pro-government managed care, pro-single payer system and other usual Utopia Island projects.

    I'm sure even the most ignorant of them finally realized what pile of shit the nation was thrown in by Obamacare. One sweet dream is out, more to go. We must be dunked into each pile to understand what it's filled with, right? Until we fully destroy our healthcare system.

    And I still remember one guy (his name and address in Denmark should remain a mystery) who said that he didn't see any problem in making dramatic changes in healthcare without any serious and prolonged analysis. "No need to think everything over and over again. Just do it and correct as you go". The wise man didn't see any problem in using the whole nation as a bunch of Guinea pigs by politically motivated assholes. But he deeply cares about our well being based on the number of threads generated by the fine gentleman.
    Ok put your proposal on the table. How will you control the cost of insurance? Before the ACA we were told that our insurance rates were rising because the uninsured had to be provided for and the rates were adjusted to account for the services they needed. After the ACA we were told our rates are going up because we had all the previously uninsured high risk people in the pool, mind you those were the uninsured that caused the rate hikes before the ACA. The insurance companies gamed the system both way. What makes you think that they will not game your proposed solution? They have 3 trillions of dollars to play with every year. They will figure out to game the system, no matter what, the more money goes through the more profit. The only way way to control the cost is to shut them out. so what is your proposed solution? The only viable solution i can see is to have a payer that we the people control to at least some degree. The ACA is a mess because we let the insurance companies control the market, and there was no price control or public option that gave them a run for their money. They are the happiest when providers charge more because they can keep 30 of the money no matter what.

    dee
    ;-D

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    Dee,

    Let me be very brief (just joking!). All I wanted to say about this I did in the old threads and have no intention or interest to repeat. Everything I said about Obamacare at that time came out exactly as I predicted. Not because I'm so cleaver (yes, I am!), but because I see it from a point of view of a healthcare provider who had an opportunity to work under completely different systems and had enough contacts elsewhere to form an opinion.

    With all my anger toward the insurance companies, I don't buy the "greedy insurance companies" vs. "very efficient government" agenda, and consider it to be totally unsubstantiated propaganda. Again it was discussed in details previously.

    In general, I don't have any solution to present. I think we should start with solving something much less complex, first. For example, every member of the Healthcare In America and Denmark forum knows that somatic cell reprogramming derives patient-specific induced pluripotent stem cells (iPSC). It seems to be obvious that they further differentiate into disease-relevant cell-types. But is this really so? Let's have a debate. What's your opinion?

    Meanwhile, let's Public Health specialists and other PROFESSIONALS decide what exactly needs an improvement in our healthcare system, is it really urgent, can it be revived at all after the AHCA miracle cure was applied, how long should be the prison sentences for those who shoved Obamacare down our throats, should they receive AHCA care benefits (after satisfying deductible and out-of-pocket expenses) while they serve or let them be treated by their peers next door.

    Then the Healthcare Think Tank can look at what it all will cost, where to find the tree to grow the funds, how to avoid political agendas while improving healthcare, how small each step forward should be and how to keep an ability to come back painlessly and quickly in case of an error.

    Let's not play specialists. We don't know all facts and figures, we have no idea what to do and how to do it, we cannot evaluate costs and predict outcomes, we don't know where to find funds and make them renewable.

    But we can easily improve The Large Hadron Collider configuration, discuss Einstein theory weaknesses or argue about best ways to correct colorectal anastomosis leaks. Basic stuff.

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    Just read in Washington Post that McConnell is saying that if he can't muster the votes to pass the Republican Healthcare bill, the GOP will turn to Democrats to work out a plan to stabilize ACA markets. The GOP makes hay over an impending "market collapse", yet the OMB says they will remain stable over the next few years.

    As a progressive, I'm not sure how I feel about this. I want us to get to single-payer, and I forsee that this might leave us with the ACA (not a "bad development at all, really) but sidetrack DEM plans for single payer. It also gives the GOP political "cover" in that they could say "hey, lookee here, we fixed Obamacare -- no need for single- payer now." McConnell is a wicked smart old bastard, and he'll have the GOP looking like heroes. Shumer ought to tell him Dems will support only single-payer, but they would give credit to the GOP for their great humanitarian efforts (Puke).

    Single-payer would cost about 3.4 trillion in year one. A growth rate of 5.8% annually is predicted. So the total for Single Payer over 10 years would be about 32-33 trillion Current spending levels in the private market, along with growth would tally up to 49 trillion over 10 years. So Single Payer would save about 17 trillion over 10 years. Pardon me if I don't have the math precisely right but this is the gist of it. Republicans know that single-payer is less expensive than what we are doing now by a long shot. The problem Republicans have with single payer is simply that they don't want government to be involved in healthcare to any great extent. I think they are smart enough though to recognize that people actually like government healthcare. Medicare and Medicaid are popular programs. The Affordable Care Act isn't despised like the GOP would like you to believe. So I think there might be a possibility of movement within the GOP given that single-payer would be an immensely popular move. Of course they are concerned about the well-being of their billionaire buddies who own and control insurance companies and Big Pharma. Still I think there's a chance that they could be brought along.

    Anyway I found this an interesting development. It will be interesting to see what happens as we go along.

    Squire


    Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, Tahlequah OK

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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelP View Post
    Dee,

    Let me be very brief (just joking!). All I wanted to say about this I did in the old threads and have no intention or interest to repeat. Everything I said about Obamacare at that time came out exactly as I predicted. Not because I'm so cleaver (yes, I am!), but because I see it from a point of view of a healthcare provider who had an opportunity to work under completely different systems and had enough contacts elsewhere to form an opinion.

    With all my anger toward the insurance companies, I don't buy the "greedy insurance companies" vs. "very efficient government" agenda, and consider it to be totally unsubstantiated propaganda. Again it was discussed in details previously.

    In general, I don't have any solution to present. I think we should start with solving something much less complex, first. For example, every member of the Healthcare In America and Denmark forum knows that somatic cell reprogramming derives patient-specific induced pluripotent stem cells (iPSC). It seems to be obvious that they further differentiate into disease-relevant cell-types. But is this really so? Let's have a debate. What's your opinion?

    Meanwhile, let's Public Health specialists and other PROFESSIONALS decide what exactly needs an improvement in our healthcare system, is it really urgent, can it be revived at all after the AHCA miracle cure was applied, how long should be the prison sentences for those who shoved Obamacare down our throats, should they receive AHCA care benefits (after satisfying deductible and out-of-pocket expenses) while they serve or let them be treated by their peers next door.

    Then the Healthcare Think Tank can look at what it all will cost, where to find the tree to grow the funds, how to avoid political agendas while improving healthcare, how small each step forward should be and how to keep an ability to come back painlessly and quickly in case of an error.

    Let's not play specialists. We don't know all facts and figures, we have no idea what to do and how to do it, we cannot evaluate costs and predict outcomes, we don't know where to find funds and make them renewable.

    But we can easily improve The Large Hadron Collider configuration, discuss Einstein theory weaknesses or argue about best ways to correct colorectal anastomosis leaks. Basic stuff.
    Did anybody ever cared to look at why Romney care worked in Mass? and Why the ACA faltered? There a large number of clues there. The reasons why ACA is a mess should not be ignored, throwing it without analysis is a huge mistake about to be made. The concept of putting everybody in one giant pool normalizes cost, but that did not happen with the ACA because the insurance industry did not let it happen. I said it many times competition in the health care industry is a myth. When you are really sick you hand over everything to save your shitty existence. If you think thirteen old farts in a room thinking about how to benefit their donors will make good health policy, hook me up with your dealer, you are smoking something really potent.


    dee
    ;-D

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