How are American engine mfgs able to make high HP with simple designs?
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    Default How are American engine mfgs able to make high HP with simple designs?

    Something I have been curious about: How can the likes of GM, Dodge make high HP engines utilizing simple technology (relative to the Euros and Japanese) ? When the Euros make high HP engines, they are complex , like the BMW in the McLaren F1 of the 90s, Ferrari engines, Mercedes engines in their high-end models and the Pagani, the W16 of the Bugatti.

    Look a the Dodge Demon, that thing makes 840hp (don't know if that is measured at the wheel or crank).

    American engines just seem soo much simpler than European high HP ones, is that an erroneous perception ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spud View Post
    Something I have been curious about: How can the likes of GM, Dodge make high HP engines utilizing simple technology (relative to the Euros and Japanese) ? When the Euros make high HP engines, they are complex , like the BMW in the McLaren F1 of the 90s, Ferrari engines, Mercedes engines in their high-end models and the Pagani, the W16 of the Bugatti.

    Look a the Dodge Demon, that thing makes 840hp (don't know if that is measured at the wheel or crank).

    American engines just seem soo much simpler than European high HP ones, is that an erroneous perception ?

    Yes

    Complexity is it's own perpetuation. It is not necessary in the equation of raw Horsepower. That is a function of volumetric efficiency.
    But if you want broad control, along with feed back, integrated with computational sophistication, HP will include complexity

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    Slight tangent for which I sincerely apologize...

    There are a whole bunch of folks poo-pooing Gene Haas and his efforts ( attempts as it may ) at F1 racing.
    I for one am glad that there is at least one person with the RWB flag who is stepping up to the plate.

    But, if there is anything I ever wanted to pick a bone with is that HE and the likely supporters of HIS did not make a valiant effort at bringing
    the likes ( or a consortium ) of Ford, GM or Chrysler to the table and develop something that is truly American.


    Quote Originally Posted by Spud View Post
    the BMW in the McLaren F1 of the 90s, Ferrari engines, Mercedes engines in their high-end models and the Pagani, the W16 of the Bugatti.
    Renault, Merc, BMW, Ferrari is one thing. Honda, Toyota been there and back.
    At the same time, what are WE going to say when some Chinese originated powersource becomes competitive in that league in the future?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CalG View Post
    Yes

    Complexity is it's own perpetuation. It is not necessary in the equation of raw Horsepower. That is a function of volumetric efficiency.
    But if you want broad control, along with feed back, integrated with computational sophistication, HP will include complexity
    Isn't volumetric efficiency dependent on technology to squeeze as much energy as possible from a liter? Which leads to complex systems such as the Japanese VVTI or 4 valves/cylinder instead of 2/cylinder.

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    From HAAS to go from a machine maker to engine maker at the top end is quite a leap, did he start with someone else design and alter it would be a good question or did he start from scratch would be a good question to answer.

    Honda call their variable valve systems VTEC on there performance range of engines. i like honda products i think they are well made and voted with my wallet on them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spud View Post
    Isn't volumetric efficiency dependent on technology to squeeze as much energy as possible from a liter? Which leads to complex systems such as the Japanese VVTI or 4 valves/cylinder instead of 2/cylinder.
    American engineers have done very well with pushrod engine design. The drag racing and circle track engine builders have contributed greatly to air flow in cylinder heads/manifolds. I play with both Mercedes and American Iron, the air doesn't know the difference between two cams on top or one cam in the block.

    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spud View Post
    Something I have been curious about: How can the likes of GM, Dodge make high HP engines utilizing simple technology (relative to the Euros and Japanese) ? When the Euros make high HP engines, they are complex , like the BMW in the McLaren F1 of the 90s, Ferrari engines, Mercedes engines in their high-end models and the Pagani, the W16 of the Bugatti.

    Look a the Dodge Demon, that thing makes 840hp (don't know if that is measured at the wheel or crank).

    American engines just seem soo much simpler than European high HP ones, is that an erroneous perception ?
    Ferrari gets same amount of horsepower WITHOUT supercharger from similar sized engine so isn't the Dodge engine more complicated with extra supercharger, charge air coolers and whatnots

    Nice to see the American manufacturer's upping the game. Mostly they have been famous for the ridicuously low output per volume.

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    For all cases, what do the "rules" say? That cheap to mfg is key? That the customer likes to count to 8 and likes large displacement? That engines bigger than 1 liter are taxed hugely? That F1 cars MUST have 1.6L V6s (because that is spec?) That torque for towing from a dead stall matters much more than peak HP?

    What is the quality of the fuel? What is the length of the run? Dragsters make insane power, but only for very short times. LeMans cars make large power, but for rather long times. Big truck engines make not so much less power, for very very long times.

    Does the engine have to run on low octane or otherwise not so wonderful fuel? Pass an emissions test? Survive rules related to warrantability?

    If you start comparing HP per liter, available usable torque, and comparable environmental rules, I don't think any particular engine will seem "so much simpler".

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    At the same time, what are WE going to say when some Chinese originated powersource becomes competitive in that league in the future?
    Don't think they will. Given Chinese conditions, I'd expect them to leapfrog internal combustion and go straight to electric.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spud View Post
    Something I have been curious about: How can the likes of GM, Dodge make high HP engines utilizing simple technology (relative to the Euros and Japanese) ? When the Euros make high HP engines, they are complex , like the BMW in the McLaren F1 of the 90s, Ferrari engines, Mercedes engines in their high-end models and the Pagani, the W16 of the Bugatti.

    Look a the Dodge Demon, that thing makes 840hp (don't know if that is measured at the wheel or crank).

    American engines just seem soo much simpler than European high HP ones, is that an erroneous perception ?
    It would be impossible to address every issue/ question in your post without writing an entire book... however, to simplify a couple main points.
    Compared to an engine like the Dodge demon has, many historical "super car" engines are 50-100 cubic inches smaller.
    Also, since horsepower is made by fuel, we need air (oxygen) to burn fuel. An engine is limited by how much air it can bring in and move out. Hence, the glory of the supercharger or turbocharger. Bring in more air, and you can add more fuel= more HP.
    THEN you break parts, so you make those parts stronger, then you make more HP.
    We have been doing it for 100 years now, so the changes have really been incremental. But the increments lately have been pretty impressive.
    Look back at a Ferrari testarossa from the Miami VICE days. It was a V-12, 4.9 liters, and made 385hp. Pretty good hp/cubic inch (or liter).
    Now, add half again that much volume, then double the amount of air with a supercharger, now you can burn more fuel.... you get the idea.
    Maybe you already knew these things, not saying you are stupid. Many folks just don't realize that many of today's engines are supercharged or turbocharged.

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    And...
    Look into what it takes to launch a dodge demon at the track. The electronics used to choke down that engine for street use are many. There truly is a "launch sequence" at the starting line. It's not simple.

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    2�16 Cobra Jet Dyno Run - YouTube

    My favorite example of volumetric efficiency. 1000 hp and mostly due to the supercharger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rigor View Post
    2�16 Cobra Jet Dyno Run - YouTube

    My favorite example of volumetric efficiency. 1000 hp and mostly due to the supercharger.
    Or the crazy germans with their volksvagons:
    Brutal Golf Mk2 1233HP 16V Turbo Acceleration from Boba Motoring!!! FULL VIDEO 215 - YouTube

    2 liter engine with 1220hp on pump gas!

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    Let's not play the "im a little four banger watch me pop" from too much boost.

    John mihovets makes 3,000+ HP and runs high 5 sec at 260+ mph in the quarter mile with a
    4.6 dohc Ford .stock block,crank and ported heads,two big turbos.

    A small engine will live a short life compared to a bigger one making the same power.

    The Texas mile is a good example of how all this tech does absolutely nothing for making shit loads of power. The superas, ferrari,lambos,no one is even close to the 3 fastest cars.

    All 3 are 2004-06 Ford gt with about 2000-2800 HP for the fastest one. The other cars don't have the physical strength in the engine to contain anymore than about 1800 HP.

    The 3 fords are going 270+ mph,one going 282 mph. Closest car is a toyota supera at 260 ish mph,that's a long way away from 280 mph.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roll-a-leblond View Post
    Let's not play the "im a little four banger watch me pop" from too much boost.

    John mihovets makes 3,000+ HP and runs high 5 sec at 260+ mph in the quarter mile with a
    4.6 dohc Ford .stock block,crank and ported heads,two big turbos.

    A small engine will live a short life compared to a bigger one making the same power.
    Isn't that Ford engine the overly complicated OHC 4-valve design

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    No it's a simple dohc, no vvt,no varible runners,no direct injection, made in 1993.

    No it's a simple engine,still can't be beat by the best the euros have,it's a very strong design.actually the first 4.6 dohc blocks were cast at teksid Italy,same plant as ferrari blocks.

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    Valves shmalves. Cams, heads, rockers, rollers, followers, pushrods, who needs all that junk. Here's 2400 hp and it lasts longer than ten seconds


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    Quote Originally Posted by roll-a-leblond View Post
    No it's a simple dohc, no vvt,no varible runners,no direct injection, made in 1993.

    No it's a simple engine,still can't be beat by the best the euros have,it's a very strong design.actually the first 4.6 dohc blocks were cast at teksid Italy,same plant as ferrari blocks.
    Doesn't qualify as a real american engine since it's not pushrod.

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    Quote Originally Posted by metalmaster10 View Post
    And...
    Look into what it takes to launch a dodge demon at the track. The electronics used to choke down that engine for street use are many. There truly is a "launch sequence" at the starting line. It's not simple.
    The electronics certainly do a lot. Even the relatively mild supercharged V6 in my daily driver could be a bit of a handful without the electronic traction control. It was disabled for a short time due to a bad wheel sensor and even starting from a stoplight on wet pavement required care.

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    Much to be said for simple brute force, 1966, 67, 68, 69 Le Mans won by a Ford GT40 w/ pushrod V8
    Ford GT4 - Wikipedia


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