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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim9lives View Post
    Many good points discussed in this thread. In any case... Automobiles are a global product. FWIW... I think there are many different parts or options which define where those come from. Like an option of a 6 speed transmission may be a German product whereas that same vehicle's base standard tranny would be a 4 or 5 speed US manufactured product. And the list of options such as the above example extends beyond just transmissions.
    This is true. Some manual transmissions are imported others are manufactured here with foreign engineering. Getrag transmissions and Getrag designs are popular across a variety of manufacturers and models.

    Automatics are a different story since the ECM needs to talk to the TCM to get everything to play nice. My personal opinion is that the US has much more experience in designing and building automatics so we do have a head start with the competition.

    One thing that I'm happy to see is that there is a developing attitude to not re-invent the wheel all of the time. Quicker, better, and cheaper to use the product or design from someone such as Getrag that does a really good job then to make your own mediocre transmission or design.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tim9lives View Post
    Many good points discussed in this thread. In any case... Automobiles are a global product. FWIW... I think there are many different parts or options which define where those come from. Like an option of a 6 speed transmission may be a German product whereas that same vehicle's base standard tranny would be a 4 or 5 speed US manufactured product. And the list of options such as the above example extends beyond just transmissions.
    This is true. Some manual transmissions are imported others are manufactured here with foreign engineering. Getrag transmissions and Getrag designs are popular across a variety of manufacturers and models.

    Automatics are a different story since the ECM needs to talk to the TCM to get everything to play nice. My personal opinion is that the US has much more experience in designing and building automatics so we do have a head start with the competition.

    One thing that I'm happy to see is that there is a developing attitude to not re-invent the wheel all of the time. Quicker, better, and cheaper to use the product or design from someone such as Getrag that does a really good job then to make your own mediocre transmission or design.

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    Quote Originally Posted by juergenwt View Post
    Today's headlines: Many Japanese cars are already "made" in US - according to what reporters tell Trump.
    Tell me, are these reporters stupid? In the same article they state: many Japanese cars are already "assembled" in the US.
    They don't even know the difference between assembling and actually building a car.
    Just how much of a "US made" Japanese car is "made" in the US? I believe that most if not all developing is done in Japan. So are most if not all the components - engines, drive train, electronics, brakes etc. etc.. How about all the tooling, robots etc.? Are they just providing some short quick training for assemblers in cheap labor states? How about all the tax advantages they get for locating on cheap land that would cost them a fortune to buy in Japan?
    Can anybody tell me what parts made in the US go into a "USmade" Japanese car?
    You can not blame the Japanese for taking advantage of what is being offered, but one thing is for sure - all the hi-tech details will stay in Japan.
    I don't think Germany or Sweden are doing anything different. OK - BMW has opened training facilities and is offering apprenticeships. But believe me - the core of all the knowhow stays in Germany or Sweden. Are we on a slippery slope sliding quickly down to being a country of cheap labor?
    One thing the reporters got right: We cant sell any cars in Japan (or Europe) because we don't make anything they would buy. Our cars are to big for use in Japanese or European cities. We don even offer a car with the steering wheel on the right side. The wrong perception of US made cars being of low quality and build to imperial standards still gives our product a bad name. Trump can scream all he wants - they will not transfer their knowhow to the US. Just assemble it!
    Would we transfer our knowhow for fighter jets? NO! Not even assembly!
    When it comes to finding the maker of the most American of U.S.-made cars — the one that's built in an American factory with the most domestically produced parts — look no further than Japan.Toyota and Honda are winning the race when it comes to having vehicles considered the most American, according to Cars.com.
    Japan's Toyota has the most made-in-the USA car: Camry

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    The Japanese companies started by only assembled cars in the US with little actual manufacturing.
    Those days are long gone and most have major design work done here along with the manufacturing of most parts.
    Powertrain and sheet metal are the big parts of cars and this is more and more done here.
    Part of the reason for this is the stagnation of wages in the US making it more attractive on a cost bias, part is the logistics of just in time, part designing for your market.

    A handful of decades ago when I first called on a Japanese engine plant here they bought all of their tooling from Japan, their traditional suppliers and I got the door slammed in my face.
    Bit by bit more and more of it is done here.
    It takes 5-8 years from initial idea to having a auto or parts plant up and running. This is no small project and they need local suppliers.

    Once upon a time Buicks were designed and built in Flint Michigan.
    No longer, the headquarters moved to China and we are left with a huge parking lot.
    Why? Simple more Buicks were being sold in China than anywhere else and you follow your customer base.

    The days of $30+ per hour auto jobs are gone. Wages in a US auto plant are now $13-$18.
    This has made us a low cost source for building so making parts in the home country is not sensible.
    In some cases the parts from the US plants are exported back to where the company has it's home.
    The playing field has been leveled so now you build where you sell.

    Auto manufacturing is a far different world than it was in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and even 90's.
    It's all complicated and Trump is playing to people who probably do not understand and want a simple "We need jobs and life used to be better".

    I am not sure how you could calculate the most or least "Made In the USA" or dollars into our economy.
    This would take a very deep knowledge of suppliers and manufacturing plants along with cost pass ons back to the corp.
    This real data is not published anywhere so I'm of any of these reports on the net.

    Make no doubt in your mind, I have reason to hate the imports and foreign companies and this whole global thing. Yet I can not.
    Bob

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    How much of a "made in the US" car is in fact made in the US? In this day and age I doubt very if it is close to 100%

    As to "Would we transfer our knowhow for fighter jets? NO! Not even assembly!"

    In the late 70ties when, among others Denmark, bought the F-16 and one of the condition was that some of the parts be made in Denmark. Norway, Belgium and Holland had the same condition. I was quality engineer at the time for a Danish company that made the heat exchangers for the F16. Ended up they could make them better and cheaper than the USA.

    The F16 purchase was what kick started the Danish aerospace industry. Now we even supply to NASA.

    F-16 Air Forces - Denmark

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    ........ Now we even supply to NASA.
    "I felt exactly how you would feel if you were getting ready to launch and knew you were sitting on top of 2 million parts — all built by the lowest bidder on a government contract."
    Somehow that we make parts for NASA is kind of...
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    The Japanese companies started by only assembled cars in the US with little actual manufacturing.
    Those days are long gone and most have major design work done here along with the manufacturing of most parts.
    Powertrain and sheet metal are the big parts of cars and this is more and more done here.
    Part of the reason for this is the stagnation of wages in the US making it more attractive on a cost bias, part is the logistics of just in time, part designing for your market.

    A handful of decades ago when I first called on a Japanese engine plant here they bought all of their tooling from Japan, their traditional suppliers and I got the door slammed in my face.
    Bit by bit more and more of it is done here.
    It takes 5-8 years from initial idea to having a auto or parts plant up and running. This is no small project and they need local suppliers.

    Once upon a time Buicks were designed and built in Flint Michigan.
    No longer, the headquarters moved to China and we are left with a huge parking lot.
    Why? Simple more Buicks were being sold in China than anywhere else and you follow your customer base.

    The days of $30+ per hour auto jobs are gone. Wages in a US auto plant are now $13-$18.
    This has made us a low cost source for building so making parts in the home country is not sensible.
    In some cases the parts from the US plants are exported back to where the company has it's home.
    The playing field has been leveled so now you build where you sell.

    Auto manufacturing is a far different world than it was in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and even 90's.
    It's all complicated and Trump is playing to people who probably do not understand and want a simple "We need jobs and life used to be better".

    I am not sure how you could calculate the most or least "Made In the USA" or dollars into our economy.
    This would take a very deep knowledge of suppliers and manufacturing plants along with cost pass ons back to the corp.
    This real data is not published anywhere so I'm of any of these reports on the net.

    Make no doubt in your mind, I have reason to hate the imports and foreign companies and this whole global thing. Yet I can not.
    Bob
    I think that the numbers that we see on the Internet are fairly accurate if we go by weight which would make sense. Travel the heaviest parts the least distance. This would match up with what I see daily in the plants.

    I'm not sure how that would total if we went by value of the parts. There is considerable value in the small electrical equipment and the software side of things.

    There is a degree of bragging rights in who claims what and also trying to establish who is more American then the other guy to the end customers.

    I also think that the Big 3 have been sourcing more of their components from US sources since 2009. Probably a variety of reasons, one being that off shoring wasn't as cheap as hoped and another that the US labor agreements have become more favorable then was in the past prior to 2008. Add to this new facilities with automation and technology and they became competitive once again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    "I felt exactly how you would feel if you were getting ready to launch and knew you were sitting on top of 2 million parts — all built by the lowest bidder on a government contract."

    Bob
    Is that really how you think it works? That remark was said in humour.

    Did you BTW notice the word "better" in "Ended up they could make them better and cheaper than the USA."

    An interesting thing was that in the welding programme that started female welders turned out to be generally better than their male colleagues.

    Another thing is that we don't have "cheap" workers. Unions see to that.

    Cost of Living in Denmark. Prices in Denmark. Updated Nov 217

    Notice: Average Monthly Net Salary (After Tax) $2,993.90

    Remember that our taxes pay for healthcare, education, etc., etc.

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    We have chrysler 300 rhd in uk though I believe its canadian made.
    Ford dealerships also offer rhd mustangs, Ive not seen many on the road , for me poor fuel consumption to low power would put me off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pressbrake1 View Post
    We have chrysler 300 rhd in uk though I believe its canadian made.
    Ford dealerships also offer rhd mustangs, Ive not seen many on the road , for me poor fuel consumption to low power would put me off.
    There's a guy near me has a new red " Mustang ", 5 litre. As far as I know it's a right hand drive. Sounds great but he must have his own oil well in the back garden.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by juergenwt View Post
    If all these statements are true, than what is Trump pissing and moaning about? looks like he is making a fool of him selves and those who advise him - if anybody can.
    I guess: We have found the enemy and it is us.
    Ziggy - I did not say anything in favor or against the metric/imperial system. Read before you write. Here is what I said:"The wrong perception of US made cars being of low quality and build to imperial standards still gives our product a bad name".
    If all these statements are true?

    Virtually every Accord sold in the US since 1983 has been made in the US.

    34 years

    Metric?

    US cars have been metric since the early 80's if not before[my 1982 Dodge was metric, so that is my frame of reference]

    I know today people post first think later, trump style, but if you are curious, the web is amazing, research

    Marysville Auto Plant - Wikipedia

    Toyota Motor Manufacturing Kentucky - Wikipedia

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    So is it better to:
    Buy a truck made by Americans for a Japanese company
    Buy a truck[or Jeep] made by Mexicans for an Italian company
    Buy a truck made by Canadians for an American company

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    So is it better to:
    Buy a truck made by Americans for a Japanese company
    Buy a truck[or Jeep] made by Mexicans for an Italian company
    Buy a truck made by Canadians for an American company
    Yes, definitely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    So is it better to:
    Buy a truck made by Americans for a Japanese company
    Buy a truck[or Jeep] made by Mexicans for an Italian company
    Buy a truck made by Canadians for an American company
    Buy something from the 60's ... Galaxie, Mustang, Camaro, SS 396 Impala, E-Type, Mark II, Alfa ... or a 52 Buick or a 48 Caddy. Just about any of them will be better than the new shit. Air bags are for sissies

    Heck, I think I'd rather have a Model A than most of what they sell today 'n if'n I wanted to be eenvironmentally correct, I could buy a Baker. Let's see what a 63 Chrysler can do to a Honda's crush zone

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    Buy something from the 60's ... Galaxie, Mustang, Camaro, SS 396 Impala, E-Type, Mark II, Alfa ... or a 52 Buick or a 48 Caddy. Just about any of them will be better than the new shit. Air bags are for sissies

    Heck, I think I'd rather have a Model A than most of what they sell today 'n if'n I wanted to be eenvironmentally correct, I could buy a Baker. Let's see what a 63 Chrysler can do to a Honda's crush zone
    Google 1959 Impala vs 2009 Malibu, you will be amazed. 63 Chrysler - Honda? I'll take the Honda thank you. Years ago I drove a tow truck, I saw some gruesome stuff, the worst was the Harley head on into a Chrysler Imperial. Head on.... on the bikes way past the 440 engine it sheared the exhaust manifold off. The bike stopped at the fire wall but the rider made it to the back seat after taking the head off the driver

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    Quote Originally Posted by juergenwt View Post
    If all these statements are true, than what is Trump pissing and moaning about? looks like he is making a fool of him selves and those who advise him - if anybody can.... (snip)
    Key point of this news cycle. The ensuing kerfuffle serves to mask news of things like ACA enrollment advances, the dating activities of Senate contenders, and the tax plan demands of congresscritters' owners.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobw View Post
    F-35 Production | F-35 Lightning IIYou should try google, its pretty amazing.
    Ayup.

    Chip

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  20. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    Buy something from the 60's ... Galaxie, Mustang, Camaro, SS 396 Impala, E-Type, Mark II, Alfa ... or a 52 Buick or a 48 Caddy. Just about any of them will be better than the new shit. Air bags are for sissies

    Heck, I think I'd rather have a Model A than most of what they sell today 'n if'n I wanted to be eenvironmentally correct, I could buy a Baker. Let's see what a 63 Chrysler can do to a Honda's crush zone
    NO thanks, been there, done that, and lay in the gutter changing 20 dollar generators every 10,000 miles. I have owned something like 40 cars, including a 63 chrysler. And currently I own 2 hondas. Sold my last big american iron- a 61 T bird convertible, because it took 15 minutes to warm up enough to drive. Looked beautiful, as we drove around, everybody waved and smiled. And it got 12 miles to the gallon, cornered, accelerated, and braked far worse than a ten year old used japanese car, and broke all the time. And parts for those old beasts are not cheap anymore. The average junkyard in the USA now keeps a car on the lot for 30 days, then scraps it.
    I probably owned over a dozen 60s cars- and they were crude, noisy, unreliable, and goddamn gorgeous. Nowadays, over here in the USA, rich tech weenies buy those cars for a hundred grand, and pay in house mechanics to maintain them.
    My cheap used 2008 Mazda 3 hatchback, with good tires, outperformed my Camaro by about double- and I ordered that Camaro from the factory, with the go fast stuff. (it was an 86, third generation- and, in 86, it was fun as hell)

    And E types, Alfa, SS 396s- thems rich people cars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by juergenwt View Post
    Today's headlines: Many Japanese cars are already "made" in US - according to what reporters tell Trump.
    Tell me, are these reporters stupid? In the same article they state: many Japanese cars are already "assembled" in the US.
    They don't even know the difference between assembling and actually building a car.
    Just how much of a "US made" Japanese car is "made" in the US? I believe that most if not all developing is done in Japan. So are most if not all the components - engines, drive train, electronics, brakes etc. etc.. How about all the tooling, robots etc.? Are they just providing some short quick training for assemblers in cheap labor states? How about all the tax advantages they get for locating on cheap land that would cost them a fortune to buy in Japan?
    Can anybody tell me what parts made in the US go into a "USmade" Japanese car?
    You can not blame the Japanese for taking advantage of what is being offered, but one thing is for sure - all the hi-tech details will stay in Japan.
    I don't think Germany or Sweden are doing anything different. OK - BMW has opened training facilities and is offering apprenticeships. But believe me - the core of all the knowhow stays in Germany or Sweden. Are we on a slippery slope sliding quickly down to being a country of cheap labor?
    One thing the reporters got right: We cant sell any cars in Japan (or Europe) because we don't make anything they would buy. Our cars are to big for use in Japanese or European cities. We don even offer a car with the steering wheel on the right side. The wrong perception of US made cars being of low quality and build to imperial standards still gives our product a bad name. Trump can scream all he wants - they will not transfer their knowhow to the US. Just assemble it!
    Would we transfer our knowhow for fighter jets? NO! Not even assembly!
    You are wrong on so many points I don't know where to start so I won't even bother. But if I think about this post tommorow while I am at my job working with 3500 others at a Japanese auto manufacturer's R&D facility I will wonder if you are a moron or just ignorant.

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    Of all industrialized nations in the world, Japan has clearly demonstrated the skill to produce top quality products in several countries. How do they do this? Why can't the US do this?

    The answers to many of these questions can be found in a book that I have referred to here before; World Class Manufacturing - The Lesson of Simplicity by Richard J Schonberger,.


    otrlt

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    Plenty of US companies successfully manufacture products in other countries. US auto makers have been building cars in Mexico, Canada, England, Australia, Korea, Japan, China, Brazil, etc. for decades. Other US companies like GE, Cat, John Deere, Apple, etc have been making products abroad for nearly as long as they have been in existence.

    Plenty of US companies manufacture everything overseas...


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