Metric Cutting Tool used in America

Woosik · Oct 16, 2016

Hello. My company doing cutting tool business. (Like end mill, taps, and inserts)

I heard that many of companies in U.S, Canada, and Mexico using Metric standard cutting tools along with Inch tools.

I just want to know, it is true or not.

Actually, my company don't have Inch standard items. So, I didn't contact potencial customers in North America.

But, if there's a need for metric tools... that means I have another big market.

I want to know what you think about it.

cefox · Oct 17, 2016

We use a mix of sae and metric drills in my shop but all our taps and all but 1 endmill are sae. I'd say we are pretty consistent with most high volume small parts shops in the industry.

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adamm · Oct 17, 2016

Woosik said:
I heard that many of companies in U.S, Canada, and Mexico using Metric standard cutting tools along with Inch tools.

For the most part, end mills and drills are inch standard. There are metric available, but not as common. For tool holders in milling machines, inch based are often in stock, and metric are special order. Based on that, I suspect metric shank tooling isn't very common, otherwise tool holders would be as available as the inch based holders.

Taps are probably the most common to be available in metric, since you can't tap an M8 threaded hole without a metric tap. If you need a 20 mm pocket milled in, you can get there easily with inch based tooling. The tap holes are typically drilled with inch based drills.

CarbideBob · Oct 17, 2016

You make metric inserts? :scratchchin:

Most metric numbered inserts are actually inch size with a different callout.
In the US I think more drills, end mills, taps, and reamers are sold in metric than inch sizes as the volume users have gone metric.
Smaller shops will have a lot invested in holding systems for inch. There is also a market for inch sized shanks and metric sized working ends.
Bob

Gordon B. Clarke · Oct 17, 2016

adamm said:
For the most part, end mills and drills are inch standard. There are metric available, but not as common. For tool holders in milling machines, inch based are often in stock, and metric are special order. Based on that, I suspect metric shank tooling isn't very common, otherwise tool holders would be as available as the inch based holders.

Taps are probably the most common to be available in metric, since you can't tap an M8 threaded hole without a metric tap. If you need a 20 mm pocket milled in, you can get there easily with inch based tooling. The tap holes are typically drilled with inch based drills.

This is going to perhaps seem impolite but are you describing "today" or "years ago"?

Do the majority of Canadian machinists still have to have their own tools or are they company supplied?

adamm · Oct 17, 2016

Gordon B. Clarke said:
This is going to perhaps seem impolite but are you describing "today" or "years ago"?

Do the majority of Canadian machinists still have to have their own tools or are they company supplied?

"Today"

I wouldn't be surprised if large outfits that buy tooling direct from manufacturers are running metric. If you have that volume the vendor will stock whatever you want and make it readily available. The cost difference will also be negligible. Job shops that buy via distributor, I'm sure they are mostly running inch shank tools with inch diameter cutting. Inch based tooling ships today. Metric based tooling is available in weeks (for many, not all items), and it is generally more expensive. Most machinists I deal with will convert metric drawings to inches, then proceed. For sure there are those who run metric. In smaller shops, probably mostly inches. I'm aware of a few large factories that are producing goods with all inch based gauging and internal specs, but are selling with the dimensions reported in millimeters.

I don't know whether Canadian machinists mostly own their own tools. All the ones I know that work in smaller (<50 people) shops have many of their own tools, but that is a small sample. Many of the factories I've been in use all company owned tools and gauges in production. Not sure about their tool rooms.

capital7 · Oct 17, 2016

adamm said:
"Today"

I wouldn't be surprised if large outfits that buy tooling direct from manufacturers are running metric. If you have that volume the vendor will stock whatever you want and make it readily available. The cost difference will also be negligible. Job shops that buy via distributor, I'm sure they are mostly running inch shank tools with inch diameter cutting. Inch based tooling ships today. Metric based tooling is available in weeks (for many, not all items), and it is generally more expensive. Most machinists I deal with will convert metric drawings to inches, then proceed. For sure there are those who run metric. In smaller shops, probably mostly inches. I'm aware of a few large factories that are producing goods with all inch based gauging and internal specs, but are selling with the dimensions reported in millimeters.

I don't know whether Canadian machinists mostly own their own tools. All the ones I know that work in smaller (<50 people) shops have many of their own tools, but that is a small sample. Many of the factories I've been in use all company owned tools and gauges in production. Not sure about their tool rooms.

The shop I work in (10 people, including admin) the machinists have their own tools, besides tooling for machines and pneumatic tools, we use mostly inch tooling, with the exception of a couple taps

michiganbuck · Oct 17, 2016

Simply removing stock it doesn't matter so inch size is common. Anything specific like size, holes, treads needing metric most US shops have tooling or can purchase locally or order as easily as inch sizes. I can't think of any shop that metric has not become so common that the guys would even raise an eyebrow at a metric print.

[machinists still have to have their own tools] Shop rules vary. Many smaller job shops the guys have their own inch measuring tools and some metric.

Conrad Hoffman · Oct 17, 2016

I once saw a good deal on a 10 mm end mill, so I bought it. It never occurred to me that it would have a 10 mm shank. Almost nobody here has R-8 collets in metric, only inch, so inch tooling is going to be around for a while.

HuFlungDung · Oct 17, 2016

I do like certain metric sized endmills for the purpose of machining inch based features, particularly whenever the feature is deep enough that excessive flex of the tool is a concern if you have to go small to do the roughing. 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 and 12 mm diameters are the more common sizes I keep around. I find it is more economical to buy the metric sizes than special inch sizes that are not common.

DMF_TomB · Oct 17, 2016

metric drills are common and often can get in 0.1mm size increments. very useful when 13.5mm drill with 0.5mm back taper get resharpened dia can go far below 13.5mm so a 13.6 mm drill allows more resharpening before hole made gets below 13.5mm

Gordon B. Clarke · Oct 17, 2016

adamm said:
"Today"

I wouldn't be surprised if large outfits that buy tooling direct from manufacturers are running metric. If you have that volume the vendor will stock whatever you want and make it readily available. The cost difference will also be negligible. Job shops that buy via distributor, I'm sure they are mostly running inch shank tools with inch diameter cutting. Inch based tooling ships today. Metric based tooling is available in weeks (for many, not all items), and it is generally more expensive. Most machinists I deal with will convert metric drawings to inches, then proceed. For sure there are those who run metric. In smaller shops, probably mostly inches. I'm aware of a few large factories that are producing goods with all inch based gauging and internal specs, but are selling with the dimensions reported in millimeters.

I don't know whether Canadian machinists mostly own their own tools. All the ones I know that work in smaller (<50 people) shops have many of their own tools, but that is a small sample. Many of the factories I've been in use all company owned tools and gauges in production. Not sure about their tool rooms.

OK. If I had to supply my own tools then I'd keep what I had for as long as possible. If I needed more then I probably would buy second hand.

Not trying to infuriate anyone but it could help explain why many smaller US companies are falling behind the foreign companies that supply their employees with the latest and newest tools.

6061Mike · Oct 17, 2016

HuFlungDung said:
I do like certain metric sized endmills for the purpose of machining inch based features, particularly whenever the feature is deep enough that excessive flex of the tool is a concern if you have to go small to do the roughing. 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 and 12 mm diameters are the more common sizes I keep around. I find it is more economical to buy the metric sizes than special inch sizes that are not common.

Ya, this ^.
Although from my experience, metric does not have the variety I can get in inch sizes, especially on corner rads and stuff. I personally would like to see more metric tooling for the reason huflungdung stated - nice to use (for example) a 6mm endmill to generate a .125 radius than just hitting the wall with a 1/4" endmill.

CarbideBob · Oct 17, 2016

Gordon B. Clarke said:
...
Do the majority of Canadian machinists still have to have their own tools or are they company supplied?

Gordon I suspect that if you ask "Do you have you your own tools" vs. "Do you use your own cutting tools and holders or are they supplied". the answers would be quite different.
Forever many machinist had their own very full rollaround box.
Even back when B-ports ruled the world a personally owned set of R-8 collets was rare to the point of "say what...".
I know of no place where you supply drills, taps and inserts out of your box as standard practice.
"Tools" covers a lot of ground. Op is in the perishable cutting tool world.
Bob

adamm · Oct 17, 2016

Gordon B. Clarke said:
Not trying to infuriate anyone but it could help explain why many smaller US companies are falling behind the foreign companies that supply their employees with the latest and newest tools.

I doubt it. I'd find it hard to believe that guys having their own micrometers and dial indicators is what is holding back productivity. What productivity advancements have been made in digital calipers, micrometers, and hand wrenches in the last 20 years?

As far as cutting tools, there are more choices in geometry, material, and coatings readily available from stock in inch sizes. In metric, the fact that it is metric already puts the cutter in the niche category. There is usually far less selection for a given size in metric than inch, before you have to go to special order cutters.

I think metric cutting tool availability is a chicken and egg thing. If metric tools were as available and as cheap as inch tools, more would be sold. If more were sold, they would be as available and as cheap as the inch tools. But the distributors don't have incentive to stock more and sell them cheaper because they likely move more slowly. Shop owners don't have an incentive to move all cutters to metric because they tend to be more expensive, less available, would require some degree of new tool holders, and in the end don't remove material any faster.

Gordon B. Clarke · Oct 18, 2016

adamm said:
I doubt it. I'd find it hard to believe that guys having their own micrometers and dial indicators is what is holding back productivity. What productivity advancements have been made in digital calipers, micrometers, and hand wrenches in the last 20 years?

As far as cutting tools, there are more choices in geometry, material, and coatings readily available from stock in inch sizes. In metric, the fact that it is metric already puts the cutter in the niche category. There is usually far less selection for a given size in metric than inch, before you have to go to special order cutters.

I think metric cutting tool availability is a chicken and egg thing. If metric tools were as available and as cheap as inch tools, more would be sold. If more were sold, they would be as available and as cheap as the inch tools. But the distributors don't have incentive to stock more and sell them cheaper because they likely move more slowly. Shop owners don't have an incentive to move all cutters to metric because they tend to be more expensive, less available, would require some degree of new tool holders, and in the end don't remove material any faster.

So we don't agree and this thread is now going in a direction that could open an old can of worms.

I think you'd be surprised at the advances digital calipers and micrometers have made the past 20 years plus as far as digital goes most of them can switch from inch to metric at the push of a button. As far as availability of inch contra metric tools then of course metric is more readily available in most of the world but when both are available the price is the same. If you find metric to be more expensive then someone is profiting at your expense.

This link is a bit provocative but is the first one I found.
These Are the Three Countries Who Don't Use the Metric System

The metric system is becoming more common in the USA every day but of course those that prefer to work in the inch system can do so. Personally I have no problem with that. TVs and similar are still given as a diagonal measurement in inches. I know some that haven't a clue how big their TV is but 55" is bigger than 40" - that much they do know.

CarbideBob · Oct 18, 2016

adamm said:
...., the fact that it is metric already puts the cutter in the niche category. ....

An interesting point here. A 12mm carbide endmill is a few pennies cheaper to make than a 1/2 inch.
Yet looking around the net the 12mm seems to carry a hefty price premium.

jscpm · Oct 18, 2016

I use metric drills in 0.1mm increments for roughing. That's about it for metric tooling.

Metric is evil. It is French.

Gordon B. Clarke · Oct 20, 2016

jscpm said:
Metric is evil. It is French.

So is the Statue of Liberty. French I mean.

ArtTech · Oct 23, 2016

I believe that convincing small manufacturing organizations (which would have the greatest volume impact on gross sales and revenue) that changing over to metric from standard cutting tools would be an impossibility. Although a greater volume of the parts work I've been involved with is generated in metric values, digital models are imported and transformed into standard inch values. All of the machine holders I use are in standard inch form, and the digital equipment used doesn't care if one describes the end mill as standard or metric, both values are simply a decimal, and can be changed to accommodate a variety of machining metrics. The other problem you face, is that the vast majority of the gauging equipment a USA machinist has and uses is in standard measurement value.
Drills on the other hand are a different story. I use metric drills routinely to "drill ream" precision holes. This practice is extremely accurate and efficient and gives latitude towards odd size holes. You might pursue the distribution of quality metric drill cutting tools. I would believe there is space in this specific market for volume sales.
I hope my reply is helpful. Alex.

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