Mexico and China Differences

We have all written or read post on Chinese bashing. Just watched some news about China and Mexico and a question came my mind. Why does China seem so progressive while Mexico seems to always stay the same. China has the fastes growing economy in the world but Mexico appears to be growing backwards at an even faster pace. Does China have a communist government that works and Mexico a dictatorship that does not? If the Mexican people are such good wokers they should be more like the Chinese.

The news claims the Chinese graduates 10 times more engineers than does the US. Then George Bush steps up and says jobs will go overseas if the US does not have qualified labor force. WOW, is George out of touch or what?

Our neighbors to the North (Canada) seem to do okay but our neighbors to the South (Mexico) are not. What is up with this picture? Now Mexico is talking about legalizing certain drugs. Seems like something needs to change in the Mexican government. Their people want to leave for a reason.

Maybe George Bush should be more concerned with North America than the middle East.

Jim

Why does China seem so progressive while Mexico seems to always stay the same.

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I think you can sum it up in one word... corruption.

For all the bad things that can be said about China, you have to recognize that their senior leaders are absolutely committed to the wellbeing of their country, as they define that term. Mexican officials are just committed to lining their own pockets.

Well, cant say I have been to China lately, but I have been to Mexico almost every year for the last 4 or 5.
And it sure doesnt seem to be the same to me.
I lived in Mexico when I was a kid, went to 2nd grade in the DF- Mexico City.
And compared to then, its a new world down there.

In Puerta Vallarta, which, admittedly, is wealthier than most areas, due to the tourist trade, I saw help wanted signs the last time I was there. And in town, there were almost no cars older than 10 years- in fact, due to the presence of factories, certain new cars we think of as "American" such as PT Cruisers, which are actually made in Mexico, were all over the place.

The Mexican middle class, while still small, is growing rapidly. There was a front page article in the Wall Street Journal last week about a middle class family- 1 kid, both parents work in banks, no interest in crossing the border.

I have been listening to a lot of Mexican bands lately- modern, post punk/techno bands who are just as hip and worldly as any band in New York or LA.
This is indicative of not being third world- When you have ultra modern groovy hipster 20 somethings, as you do now in Mexico, who do yoga, eat and cook international fusion, make inexplicable modern art, and can bull**** with your dressed in black, lower east side squat dweller, and win, you are moving fast.

Of course, Mexico still has stunning poverty, and areas that havent changed in 100 years, but for that matter, so do we- rural areas of the south are not so different.

So I guess my point is, if you went to Mexico, and looked, you would see that the attitudes, educations, an world views of the young people there IS changing, and the government will follow. Maybe not in the ways you want, but they are changing, and mighty fast.

And as far as corruption goes, can you say "Abramoff"?

Mexican officials are just committed to lining their own pockets.

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Well I guess Mexico is more similar to Bush & Co, than we thought!

Mark

Well I guess Mexico is more similar to Bush & Co, than we thought!

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Not really, much, much worse.
More like Klinton was with the Chinese bag men directly coming to the White House

I would think children per family has something
to do with it, the Mexican immigrants around
here seem to have 3 by the time they are 25 years
old or less. The old poverty and ignorance breed
the same. I have met a few Mexican immigrants
that take their work seriously and progress,
while raising their children well, but most
do not. Most have way more kids than they can
afford, so they are too busy working to make
ends meet, to raise the children properly.
Go ahead and flame me, but most of the customers
I visit locally are 80% staffed my illegals
from south of the border, I see their behavior
first hand.

The difference between Mexico and China are simply a matter of distance from America.

Corruption in Mexico is slightly less than the legendary corruption that China has. Nepotism and cronyism are so ingrained that the locals think American ideals of fair play and honesty are a joke.

Racism in both countries is off the chart. The guys in my place of employment have to be careful not to invite the Mexican workers to any after hours activities, when the upper class Mexicans are around. If your skin is too dark, you know what a black man felt like before the civil war. We can not figure out how he Chinese pick their classes. Like the Japanese, the Chinese all know that the lower classes had better know their place.

Buisness and private property are pretty much a joke. In both countries; you have to buy justice and private property are exclusive domain of the connected.

Mexico and China are ruled by tin horn clowns that believe that they know how things should be. Both have openly railed about crushing America. Like the Arabs, they just never say those things in english. The press in both countries is what American liberals want for. Say the wrong thing and you wind up missing.

I have always noticed that a group that harps about something, generally is trying to cover something up. Every lawyer, cop, and judge rails about truth and justice, while they screw you where you stand. Every whore goes on about virtue and faithfulness. Every made man, in whatever crime syndicate, talks about honor, trust, and family loyalty. When Chinese lecture us about being ugly Americans; I think about all that aid and help they give away and how they keep the world stable. When Mexico rails about America's treatment of undocumented people and mean buisness rules; I am reminded how well Mexico treats illegals and how well gringos are taken care of, under Mexican law.

Enjoy the cheap junk and clean toilets. Soon the bill will come. You are going to wish you scrubbed your own bathroom and made your own toys. Remember; In ten years white Americans will be a minority, according to the federal definition. Once the scales tip, do you think America is not going to look like downtown Tijuana with Chinese bosses in charge? Who is voting and who is collecting the debts?

According to polls done in Mexico, about 40% to 50% of the people that are left there want to follow the others to the USA as soon as they are able. I have never heard of any polls done in the 'rural areas of the south' (of the usa) that showed anyone wanting to move from there to Mexico, and many in the south are from Mexico. It doesn't sound to me like Mexico is a decent place to live. Mexicans litterally risk death crossing the desert to get to the USA. Many are rescued by the US Border Patrol just before they would be dead, and sent back. As soon as they are better, they try again.

Anyway, the next time I see some Mexicans standing around on the street corner, I will tell them about all the job openings in Puerta Vallarta.

Its hard to argue with all these experts.
But the original question, why is Mexico staying the same, is the one I want to talk about.

There is no question, Mexico has a crummy government, corrupt elections, and a few billionaires who own a lot, and a bunch of poor people who dont have much.
There is also no question that in the past, many Mexican families had lots and lots of kids, and that 40% to 50% of all Mexicans would come to the USA to work if they could.

But Mexico is not just like china-
And it is changing.

At least Mexicans have elections, and PRI has been losing some of them lately. That would never happen in China.
And the birthrate per family in Mexico is falling.
So in the future, there will be fewer people competing for local jobs, and hopefully fewer will want to sneak across the border and live here.

Mexico is industrialising, with many high tech factories. These jobs pay less than here in the USA, but a lot of mexicans stay at home and work there.

Poor people from the american south dont go to Mexico, because they have welfare here at home. But that doesnt change the fact that we, too have poor people, and corrupt politicians, and drug dealers shooting each other.

Interestingly enough, the americans moving to Mexico are the ones with money- In many areas, the influx of gringos building houses and moving in has grown so much that eventually, we may all just have traded places.
The mexicans will all move up here, and we will all move down there.

I have a lot of friends who own houses in Mexico, and live there part, or full time. Americans can now own real estate there, and in many towns there are big american communities.

This is yet another small prod for Mexico to change, but the main impetus for Mexico to change is Mexicans. They are tired of poverty, corruption, and ignorance, and are demanding more, and in many places, getting it. The internet, and satelitte TV are available everywhere now- many of the smallest, funkiest villages have internet cafes.
Information is an insidious thing- it makes people realize what they dont have. And then they start to ask why.
It isnt happening overnight, but in many parts of Mexico, the kids are not willing to come up and be yard boys anymore.

And just like every wave of immigrants to the US in the past, not everybody stays. Many Mexicans make money here, and then retire back home, building a house over the years. These guys have been changed by their time up here, and expect a lot more from life and their government than they used to. In some villages, this is happening already- Mexicans who have spent 30 or 40 years working in the USA are starting to get elected to posts in Mexico, and they think differently.

Nope, Mexico wont change overnight, but it is changing, all the time. And judging Mexico by the single young men who come here to work is like judging all of America based on teenage soldiers at a bar outside of a US base overseas- sure, its true for some people, but you dont get a very good picture of the country as a whole.

My boss is a hispanic guy who grew up in California. He told me that before V. Fox's election, he used to bring an extra $1,000 with him on his visits to Mexico just to pay off various law enforcement types as he traveled through the country. He says that Vincente has actually cleaned a lot of that up and that Mexican people are worried that the next guy will just let things slip back to how they were.

-James

alright, ries, you want to hear the real reason? You will probably reject it right off, because you have been programmed to do so. But it is simple;

The average IQ of Chinese is about 105.
The average IQ of Mexicans is about 82.

There you go. You can start from there and figure the rest out.

By the way; Mexico is not a poor nation. There are some very rich people there, but they don't want to take care of the poor ones. They just unload them on the USA.

Also, and I know I will get flak over this one, but Mexico is Catholic. The Catholic church has run the place ever since the Spanish got there and converted the Aztec priests that were sacrificing humans. (By the way, they just washed the blood off of the walls, sprinked some holy water in there, took the black robes off of the Aztec priests and put white ones on and Viola! it was a Catholic church. Read 'conquest of Mexico' for that affair.) But the Catholic church encourages their members to have as many children as possible. Having children is a status symbol in latin america. Like in the USA , you talk about your house, your car, how much in the bank. There your status is measured by how many children you have.

But the Catholic church is only part of the problem, the main reason is a lack of native born intelligence.

Just out of curiousity, when was the last time you were in Mexico, and talked to ordinary mexicans?

Because my "programming" consists of just that- walking the streets of non tourist towns, and talking to people about ordinary stuff- buying a taco, or talking to a welder about the fence he is building, or riding for two hours with a guy I hired to drive me, and shooting the **** about kids, prices, jobs, marriage, where to eat, or talking to a man who specialises in Huichol indian crafts, discussing the sourcing of beads from Italy, Korea, and Japan.
None of these people had IQ's of 82. In fact, walking the streets of small town america, I run into a lot more brain dead, (not necessarily dumb, just not thinking) Americans than I have in Mexico.

But I know, actually going someplace, and talking to the people who live there- thats "programming".
The real info is to be found at home in your living room.

"Fred on Everything" aka Fred Reed is one USA ex-pat who lives in Mexico. His columns bounce around on many subjects, but from time to time they touch on the life of a gringo "south of the border". Check him out at http://www.fredoneverything.net/ and particularly http://www.fredoneverything.net/ImmigrationIntoMexico.shtml

Charles

Ries, i have not been to Mexico in almost 40 years, but from experience believe you are telling it like it is. My experiences in Mexico, full immersion in Mexico City and the Yucatan when I was 16 match what you describe, even if that was a long time ago. I too have (USA/N.Americans) friends with property in Mexico, and I have been friends on extended construction jobs with Mexicans (and numerous other S American nationalities_) both legal and illegal for most of my 35 years in trades. There is a lot of simplistic reactionism exhibited here that I prefer not to get involved with. But want to say your efforts are appreciated.

BTW, my comments are separate from the illegal alien question. I believe we ought to decide what our immigration policy is, and what our guest worker policy is, figure out if it is working in default*, or if it is not working, then change things to effect the policy needed, and enforce it.

*"working in default" means that so many people benefit from the status quo and the illegal factor; that no one who could, really wants to change it. This promotes scofflaw attitudes across the board.

smt

Mexico had a GDP of $699.5 billion with an estimated population of 106 million for 2005 giving a per capita income of about $6,600.

China, on the other hand had a GDP of $1.79 trillion for a population of about 1.3 billion yielding a per capita income of only $1,370.

In the global race to the bottom of the wage scale, Mexican workers are about 4.8 times more expensive than their Chinese counterparts.

So factories are closing in Mexico and moving to China in the race to the bottom by the global corporations in their search for the most profit.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/globaliz/econ/2003/0903chinamexico.htm

Don't ask these corporate hogs who will buy their products after they fire all the Americans.

As of 2003, the per capita debt (non-mortgage) in America was about $6,780. Per capita mortgage debt about $26,540 which gives a total per capita debt of $33,320.

For a family of 4, the debt is $133,280 in the hole.

To keep the race to the bottom going, Americans must go further into debt to buy the Chinese crap that the Chinese consumer can't buy because they don't earn enough to consume what they produce. Not that they wouldn't like to, but going on strike in China to demand a living wage is a good way to die in prison.

And Mexico is not a workers' paradise. Mexican labor law has no provision for the registry of trade unions and collective bargaining agreements. Conciliation and Arbitration Boards (CABs) enforce labor laws in Mexico and these CABs rule against independent unions. They allow companies to set up exclusion rules where only certain unions can be employed. If a worker joins an independent union, they can legally be fired. The pro-corporate unions remain in control of the worker pool and keep wages down and working conditions poor to benefit the bottom line of the corporations.

Thus, all of the NAFTA crap about illegal immigration being fixed by turning Mexico into a workers' paradise was another big fat lie that only benefitted the corporate hogs who sold the NAFTA lie to the American public.

Steve


Steve

Mexican labor law has no provision for the registry of trade unions and collective bargaining agreements. Conciliation and Arbitration Boards (CABs) enforce labor laws in Mexico and these CABs rule against independent unions.

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The unions are at the heart of the problem here in the US. I know a guy in Baltimore who makes over $50k per year walking around writing down numbers on containers that come into the port.

He belongs to a union. The unions have priced themselves out of the labor market. They're simply not worth the wages they demand.

You can blame unions until there are no unions left.

Unions did more to create the middle class in America than all the Rockefellers combined.

Look at the greed of the Corporate elites who would make you work 16 hours a day, 7 days a week and pay you with a bowl of rice if it weren't for unions. Then these human pigs build multi-million dollar homes while the homeless situaion in America is becoming a crisis.

You go work a 12 hour shift in a coal mine when it explodes because the mine operator cut corners to make more profits and then tell me how unions destroyed America.

If it weren't for the back-stabbing greed of corporate America, there never would have been a need for unions.

Read this example of "corporate love" for the working man:

Meantime I was investigating the steel-mills of Alleghany County. I spent a long time at this task, tracing out some of the ramifications of graft in the politics and journalism of Pittsburgh. The hordes of foreign labor recruited abroad and crowded into these mills were working, some of them twelve hours a day for seven days in the week, and were victims of every kind of oppression and extortion. An elaborate system of spying crushed out all attempt at organization. I talked with the widow of one man, a Hungarian, who had had the misfortune to be caught with both legs under the wheels of one of the gigantic travelling cranes. In order to save his legs it would have been necessary to take the crane to pieces, which would have cost several thousand dollars; so they ran over his legs and cut them off and paid him two hundred dollars damages.

Upton Sinclair
The Brass Check
published by the author, 1919
pp. 56


Steve

Also, and I know I will get flak over this one, but Mexico is Catholic. The Catholic church has run the place ever since the Spanish got there and converted the Aztec priests that were sacrificing humans. (By the way, they just washed the blood off of the walls, sprinked some holy water in there, took the black robes off of the Aztec priests and put white ones on and Viola! it was a Catholic church. Read 'conquest of Mexico' for that affair.) But the Catholic church encourages their members to have as many children as possible.

But the Catholic church is only part of the problem,

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Hmm, art_deco - it sounds like you have a "hateful attitude" towards the Catholic Church. (sound familiar?)

Too bad for you - I agree with you - now apologize

i used to be catholic. and i can tell you the chruch is run a lot like mexico. keep most of the people poor dumb and pregnant.

The Catholic church must be doing, as our Great Leader says, "A Heckuva Job"-

Because in 1968, the average Mexican woman had 7 kids, and last year it was down to just a tiny bit over 2 kids per woman.
And still dropping.

As far as IQ's go- who exactly went around and gave every single Mexican a Stanford Binet?

Sorry, I dont believe those statistics.

I find that most people who dont speak a word of spanish, and have never been to Mexico, base their opinions on a few 20 something guys hanging around the Lowe's parking lot.

Well, I have been to Kennywood Park in Pittsburgh on West Virginia High School day, and if I was to base my opinion of every citizen of West Virginia based on what I saw there, I would say 82 IQ points is a bit generous, and that there wasnt a single dentist, or non fat diet, in the whole state. And that the Mullet was the state haircut. But we all know that isnt true, right?