Old machines show why Trump tax breaks may not spark new company spending
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    Default Old machines show why Trump tax breaks may not spark new company spending


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    Funny how HGR was specifically mentioned in the article. I bought 4 used machines from them myself.

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    Good article. But if it is only speaking from new machine purchases it may only be partly right. Some companies don't have this mindset and will buy new. I worked for a medical manufacturer that specified new exclusively. But think about it for a second. So you buy used and retrofit and bring old iron back into modern usage principles. Nothing wrong with that. You are actually giving rebuild companies work and employing those workers. Money still goes back in to the economy in one form or another. This article also speaks mainly of large capital equipment that run into the millions of dollars. How many companies are building this kind of equipment today compared to more standard machinery like machine tools. And, how many manual and CNC machines built today can last more than 10 years? Volume wise, this market is probably larger and buying used in this market may not be the smartest thing if you want a project to succeed.

    Paul

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    at least they are planning to make product in the usa...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Second point: With 535 voting members of Congress, 50 state Governors, and droves of other officials does EVERYTHING have to be laid at the feet of our newest President?
    DJT nomination acceptance speech on July 21, 2016: “No one knows the system better than me,” [...] “which is why I alone can fix it.”

    Regards.

    Mike

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    Machinery Sales...what?

    Here I go again .. Rant on.
    If trump does not address this he may just be another bozo like Clinton and Obama.

    It costs $5.00 to ship a pound item from China to USA.
    From USA to China $50.00
    And it is my tax dollars that pay the difference.. What are we saving to buy a $3 00 hammer when my tax pays the $47 shortage..

    The USPS ePacket Program and How It Affects Your E-Commerce

    I just got a small machine part from Minnesota to Michigan. Postage was $2.67

    likely it would have been a buck from China and USA ... and my taxes would have paid the $2.67 to the post office.

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    this article is only applicable to a small section of the machinery market.
    certainly there are machines where it makes a lot of sense to buy used.
    Acme hasnt made a new upsetter bigger than 5" in decades. If you need a 7 1/2 machine, which weighs in at 400,000lbs, you have to buy used, and have it rebuilt.
    There are similar situations with big HBM's, Spar Mills, and Oil Country lathes.

    But a lot of machines are basically consumables.
    Most electronic controlled machines have a finite lifespan. Not only do you have controls that have parts that are simply obsolete, but you have wear that is not feasible to repair on ways, wear surfaces, and so on.
    Pristine 40 year old machines are still not worth buying, in many cases, because of rubber and plastic deterioration, for example- when all the insulation on hundreds of feet of wiring is disintegrating, and rewiring is a months long process.
    Plus, speeds and capacities of older machines are often pretty piss poor.
    Sure, you can buy a great 1930s lathe for not much- which tops out at 800 rpm, wont run carbide tooling, and has a 1 1/8" bore, on a 12' lathe. And no metric threading.

    New tech is often so much better than old, that it makes sense to buy new- my inverter welders run rings around old copper wired buzzboxes, even though they cost thousands more- they save me tens of thousands on labor and the weld quality is far superior.
    I used to have an overhead belt drive 1910 lathe. It was very cheap. I was not sad at all to see it go...

    Dunno about everyone on this forum, but in my shop, which is business, not hobby, I bought the mill, the lathe, drill presses, hydraulic press, the plasma cutter, 4 or 5 welders, the angle rolls, the plate rolls, the power hammer, the benders, the ironworker, the bandsaws, and most of the other tools NEW. And dont regret it for a minute. Parts are available, downtime is minimal, and costs are much lower over the long run. And, in most cases, they are quieter, cleaner, more accurate, easier to use and to train employees on, safer, and have much higher resale value.

    I do have a couple of used tools- but, frankly, in my part of the country, used tools are hard to find, expensive, and often beat to shit.
    I cant afford to shop craigslist for a year to find the right deal- like many businesses, I am losing money if a working machine is not on the floor when I need it, not when I find it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    What would you rather see, an expansion of manufacturing using refurbished and used machinery or more jobs sent to China?
    That question is a bit like me asking you, "Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no?"

    Remind me. Who is it that send jobs to China or any other foreign country?

    Ivanka Trump was importing 5 tonnes of Chinese clothing as her father was saying 'buy American' | The Independent

    How many Trump products were made overseas? Here’s the complete list. - The Washington Post

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post

    It costs $5.00 to ship a pound item from China to USA.
    From USA to China $50.00
    And it is my tax dollars that pay the difference.. What are we saving to buy a $3 00 hammer when my tax pays the $47 shortage..

    The USPS ePacket Program and How It Affects Your E-Commerce

    I just got a small machine part from Minnesota to Michigan. Postage was $2.67

    likely it would have been a buck from China and USA ... and my taxes would have paid the $2.67 to the post office.
    2.67 is still pretty low cost....but if what that link claims is true, holy crap, who did that and why? It seems so extraordinary makes me wonder if there is more to it. For example, is it the Chinese government is who is actually doing the subsidizing? Wouldn't surprise me, just like their pegged (manipulated) currency, done to gain market share (=growth)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    you have to buy used, and have it rebuilt.
    There are similar situations with big HBM's, Spar Mills, and Oil Country lathes.
    That gets into another issue. Take Blanchard grinders for example. Blanchard made thousands of machines of all different styles from the turn of the century until sometime in the 1990s. But, demand for new machines dropped way off after the 1970s when carbide tooling was becoming common and NC and CNC machines could make complete parts and we didn't need to grind all the castings as the first operation.

    So, Blanchard really became a rebuilder of its own products and the new machines it built were custom machines and very large grinders. A Blanchard grinder can basically never wear beyond the point that it can be rebuilt. There is no designed obsolescence. A brand new machine would be functionally identical to a 75 year old machine, minus a few gears that have been replaced by servos.

    The story I was told is that they took a contract to built a 200" table grinder, the largest in the world, and it didn't go so well and bankrupted them. They went through a series of buyouts and basically no longer exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finegrain View Post
    DJT nomination acceptance speech on July 21, 2016: “No one knows the system better than me,” [...] “which is why I alone can fix it.”

    Regards.

    Mike
    LOL! Buy that kool-aid, person must have pockets as empty as mind.

    Sad, that. Cudda made a fortune selling the bridges across the Thames a hundred times over if only they had as much MONEY as wish-for!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    If you noticed, the resident troll with a severe case of TDS (Trump Derangement Syndrome) is actually trying to blame Ivanka for the flood of Chinese goods over the last decade or so.

    What a maroon!
    LOL! Noooo.. I have NOT noticed. Getting a great deal of more important s**t done here at Chaos Court by staying TF OUT of this limited-membership cesspool, actually..

    Resident Troll is probably just viciously upset 'coz she looks better, 'probably' smells better, and is for damned-sure more effectively functional.

    "Childish jealousy, as usual!", IOW.


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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    If trump does not address this he may just be another bozo like Clinton and Obama.
    You forgot bush.

    As for Ivanka, she is not to blame for the flood of chinese goods, but when your old man is saying "buy american" and saying he alone can fix the problem I would expect better out of his associates. Especially wife and children. Across the board we should hold leaders to a much higher standard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Read the links I posted. I
    A quick skim (don't have time for a detailed study) suggests what I thought, that the largest portion of the discount is in the China to US leg which the Chinese government must be covering.

    that would seem to be a unfair subsidy for sure that should be squawked about....but is something China controls (based on quickly reading the WP article)....or at least controls the majority of the subsidy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    If you noticed, the resident troll with a severe case of TDS (Trump Derangement Syndrome) is actually trying to blame Ivanka for the flood of Chinese goods over the last decade or so.

    What a maroon!
    Get a grip. Ivanka was an example. I don't even think Trump himself is in any way responsible for "the flood of Chinese goods". I suggest you get help in developing your reading and understanding skills.

    The point of my post was for you and others like you to give more thought about who it is that in fact import Chinese goods.

    Of course it could be that the average Joe in the USA can't afford anything but cheap imports no matter where they come from.

    OEC

    - United States (USA) Exports, Imports, and Trade Partners


    Official Source US Export and Import Statistics - Foreign Trade - US Census Bureau

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mebfab View Post
    Across the board we should hold leaders to a much higher standard.
    Well we do try. Or like to BELIEVE we do.

    But waddya do when hardly a one of 'em ever MEETS high standards, even going into the 'primary' elections, let alone once into any sort of office, local to global?

    Most of the best folk for doing these jobs well will neither seek them nor even accept appointments to them.

    If nothing else, dozens of flavours of self appointed 'enemies', "the press" feeding off them, are too ravenously deadly to "life as we know it" to want to expose self and family to the collateral grief.

    Trump's not that different. Just more obvious. Keep this up, we'll 'dumb down' higher offices until only pre-certified morons too arrogant or stupid to notice even dare run.

    Or have we already arrived there, and quite a while ago, already?

    Mayhap we should just 'draft' 'em off a lottery? Or have EVERY citizen risking a turn in that barrel, just as if it were Swiss Military Service?

    Can't see it possible we'd get WORSE Government.

    With no time to build baggage or get onto 'enemies list', "President WHO?" could at least be CHEAPER.

    Looks as if France just signed-up for giving that a go... little-known guy, new political party, and the party has already changed its name....let's see how it plays.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monarchist View Post

    Looks as if France just signed-up for giving that a go... little-known guy, new political party, and the party has already changed its name....let's see how it plays.
    I hope well, they need to do something. As I understand it, a large portion of the platform is labour law reform which they badly need.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monarchist View Post

    Trump's not that different. Just more obvious. Keep this up, we'll 'dumb down' higher offices until only pre-certified morons too arrogant or stupid to notice even dare run.

    Or have we already arrived there, and quite a while ago, already?
    Nah...Trump really is THAT different. Aside from being temperamentally and intellectually unsuited to be President, he's also a felon.

    Arrived there already? Yessir. Some time ago.

    Squire






    Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, Tahlequah OK

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    2.67 is still pretty low cost....but if what that link claims is true, holy crap, who did that and why? It seems so extraordinary makes me wonder if there is more to it. For example, is it the Chinese government is who is actually doing the subsidizing? Wouldn't surprise me, just like their pegged (manipulated) currency, done to gain market share (=growth)
    The answer to you and michiganbuck is that export mail pricing is subsidized by the Chinese government, that's why it is so low. There are super products available in the US that after paying the exorbitant prices of transport and then import duties plus a value added tax of 21% on the total, the cost of these superior products are unaffordable. Why doesn't the US do the same thing? It works. Trump just might make that happen if was aware of it. Tell your congressman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve-l View Post
    The answer to you and michiganbuck is that export mail pricing is subsidized by the Chinese government, that's why it is so low. There are super products available in the US that after paying the exorbitant prices of transport and then import duties plus a value added tax of 21% on the total, the cost of these superior products are unaffordable. Why doesn't the US do the same thing? It works. Trump just might make that happen if was aware of it. Tell your congressman.
    ugh. Kind of in the good luck department getting China to do anything, but what we really need is no subsidies, not our subsidy to match their subsidy. But I grant its wishful thinking


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