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  1. #21
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    Hi Pete:

    Just sent you a PM....

    Cheers, Brian

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    Quote Originally Posted by SD&M View Post
    Hi Pete:

    Just sent you a PM....

    Cheers, Brian
    Hi Brian, Good to hear from you. Apparently the PM email system looks at the ";" in the middle of your screen name and thinks you're two folks. Won't let me send a reply. Let me know your preferred email and I'll get in touch. Regards, Pete

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    Hi Pete:

    Ha Ha! Mystery discovered, though not solved (I guess the "&" is corn-fusing for the BBS s/w)! Just sent another PM with new-and-improved contact info.

    Cheers, Brian

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    Most of the folks (credit card companies, merchants, etc.) pushing this don't so much want control, as either the savings of transaction costs or a fractional cut of the action.
    It starts that way - or they say it does - but after a short while the possibilities spring into the minds of those who now have that data and ... pretty soon your favorite brand of pickles disappears from the shelves, and the smaller sizes of laundry detergent are no longer available and ... on and on. Information turns into control almost inevitably. This whole "high-tech society" thing is making Huxley-Orwell novels look naive.

    And you can't expect me to believe that the blue meanies are going to let all that data sit there unmolested. That isn't how life works, and never has been.

    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Route 360 from
    Sharon Pa, to pizzaborg, was a new toll road.

    They just changed it to "cashless", somehow they want to read your plate
    if you don't have "ez pass".

    Now, as of late the license plates around here are "snow covered" so I'm
    not sure who's at fault if you use the toll road, and the camera can't finger
    you with a bill.

    I just got my annual regristration bill for the truck, and they added a flyer how
    "Your unpaid toll fines can now result in your losing your license"
    This'll give you a smile - the Golden Gate Bridge is losing $100,000 a month from out-of-state cars that don't pay, and they can't chase them down across state lines. Shades of the good olde dayes

    (Got that number directly from a retired bridge district employee.)

    Those stupid fucknuckles at the bridge district refused to leave even one tool booth up for out-of-state cars, in a place that lives off tourism. They expect people to hunt down cash payment places and pre-pay for x number of bridge crossings, at a 40% premium, before crossing the bridge. And they have no way to enforce "violators" from other states.

    Is there a better definition of arrogance and ignorance combined ? If this were the 1800's those imbeciles would be hanging from lamp posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    I'm not so sure. AFAIK any private entity can refuse cash or any other payment method they don't like.
    In practice, this is for sure true. But in theory, we should look into whatever caused the statement "legal tender for all debts" to be printed on the bills. I'm betting that at the time, the gubmint was into forcing people to accept paper money, so then people were forced to take the paper. But nowadays the gubmint likes stuff that's easily tracked, so they have changed their tune.

    btw, Monarchist is correct on the "who is ahead of whom" statement, the hot thing all over China these days is Alipay and if you like standing in line for ten minutes while some twit pays for a $2 purchase with their iPhone App, great. I think it sucks. He's incorrect that there isn't enough paper to go around, Beijing proved that over the past few years by printing trillions of pink Maos. Stuff that used to cost $20 now costs $100. Great.

    But worse than that is that they have caught on to the hidden potential in computerization. China has been abominable on paperwork for centuries. If they didn't invent the intrusive bureaucracy, they perfected it. But the beauty of the system was, it was dysfunctional. It was so cumbersome and fucked up that if you had a brain there was always a way around their stupidity. If you think regulation in the US is ridiculous, try China. We're up to our nose in impossible crap. Literally impossible. There's a ton of catch-22's in their regulations.

    Crap which we always got around before because their systems were feeble. But lately, their systems are getting to where they actually work. All this micropayment cashless stuff plays right into that.Twenty years from now people will be nothing but faceless helpless serfs. This is what you are buying into with this cashless camel's nose of "convenience".

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    Crap which we always got around befroe because their systems were feeble. But lately, their systems are getting to where they actually work. All this micropayment cashless stuff plays right into that.Twenty years from now people will be nothing but faceless helpless serfs. This is what you are buying into with this cashless camel's nose of "convenience".
    Spot on. Now for a hoot. Bitcoin and Sputniks.

    Generated on 'puters, stored on 'puters, moved about on 'puters, transacted on 'puters.
    over networks built and operated by dominant-carrier / and or "national" carriers.

    This is somehow going to make the users free of observation and tracking?

    Surely. And the check is in the mail, this won't hurt a bit, and they won't come in your [ mouth | anus | ear | nostrils]

    What with No Such Agency and Sputniks, fully 'puterized just makes it EASIER than tracking gold, diamonds, or hard cash.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monarchist View Post
    What with No Such Agency and Sputniks, fully 'puterized just makes it EASIER than tracking gold, diamonds, or hard cash.
    I am a little surprised that people are so easily seduced. Removing real money from life means that we are all now nothing but (binary) numbers.

    A refresher reading of 1984 might be in order. When you can't even buy a tomato without the Thought Police descending on you, it's over.

    I'm thinking I timed this about perfect. Just about when this all comes to fruition, I'll be gone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    I'm thinking I timed this about perfect. Just about when this all comes to fruition, I'll be gone.
    No. You will not be "gone". That's the weird part of this whole "become a number" thing.

    Mum's two years buried and still lives-on in the databases of retailers, junk mailers, cc companies. You name it, and all that despite the executor (Ich) having duly sent Death certs and all.

    Allegheny County, PA even called her for Jury Duty a couple of months after she died.

    Phone company refused to cancel service - house sold months before - until I asked them for a "movement" order to transfer the subscriber drop into her casket at her burial plot, LOUD ringers, if you please.

    Home insurance Co. refused to cancel even though the house had been sold, months earlier.

    ALL of these database & dead-tree pushing cretins wanted "forms" filled out. Told 'em their forms, their Day Job. The death cert, Executors's letters testamentary, and cover letter was the end of our responsibility, legally.

    So.. she lives-on, electronically, and for who knows how long.

    So will you and I.

    But it is a Helluva nice slice of revenge on the bastids that they will keep wasting resources over our virtual ghosts !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monarchist View Post
    No. You will not be "gone". That's the weird part of this whole "become a number" thing.
    You have a point But I am pretty sure they won't be able to bother me ... at least not without sacrificing a perfectly good chicken or two

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    You have a point But I am pretty sure they won't be able to bother me ... at least not without sacrificing a perfectly good chicken or two
    Fuggabunchapoultry!

    My fee may have to be paid as a containership of liquid helium just so I can take the call without melting the phone!


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    I am not a lawyer and I do not play one on tv but... I believe cash is legal tender for all depts public and private unless they have a sign stating otherwise before the transaction begins.
    If you eat a meal and they refuse cash you can walk away with no legal repercussions. You tried to pay with legal tender and they refused to take the money. It is not your problem unless they told you so before you starting eating. Same as if they refused cash and said you can only pay in a pound of flesh, bitcoins or gold dust.
    Bill D

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill D View Post
    If you eat a meal and they refuse cash you can walk away with no legal repercussions. You tried to pay with legal tender and they refused to take the money.
    I am not a Lawster, either, but ISTR you need to offer them that cash three times and have it refused three times before you are fully clear. Witnesses would be wise, as well. Not uncommon for STATE laws to be harsh on drive-off or walk-away behaviour.

    Not a "common" circumstance, but the merchant (staff..) CAN offer to send you a bill by mail. In which case, you'd be obligated to pay it, and that could, of course still be in cash if you insisted, but to their bank or an office.

    Most folks would send a check or buy a money order before being all that shirty about the situation, especially if the meal was decent. Why wage war over an administrative nuisance on folks who are just trying to earn a living feeding hungry others?

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    I agree nothing sez let's make a deal like cash. As far as food, gas, bills etc, it is all just numbers on the card or phone. I do remember buying a car trying to pay in cash, 24K in hundreds, the seller freaked out. I has to get a bank check to pay him.

    Cash is a great motivator for individuals and small business but, for retailers and suppliers it is just easier to use a card. Even paying cash at the grocery they track your purchases if you use their discount program. I keep about 100 buck in the car for emergency but rarely do I have more than 10 buck in my pocket.

    Steve

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    Re the OP. Here we seem to be getting closer to a cashless society. Checks are no longer used and in many banks there is simply no money (as in cash) available.

    All wages are done by bank transfer and in fact the first thing you must do when starting a new job is to give a bank account to which wages are paid into.

    I can't remember the last time I was any place here where I couldn't use a credit card. For small amounts all I have to do is hold one of my cards (I have one for private and one for business) next to the "device". Of course now and then I do have cash on me but it's rarely more than $20.

    Of course there are EU countries that still use/prefer cash than we do here but they aren't always just as non corrupt as here. And no, I'm not saying there is no corruption here but it is far from common.

    Same with my healthcare card. If I go to my doctor or to a hospital I use it as if I was buying something. The chip tells everything (healthwise) there is to know about me. Saves time and avoids potential problems. Use my card and never a bill. I seem to have unlimited credit on it LOL

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    ... You've got to carry weapons, 'cause you always carry cash......(one of my top 10 favorite tunes)
    Two things more than a few people feel strongly about.
    I think the second one will go away first, if nothing else just for convenience.
    For a very long time I paid cash for everything and carried a fair amount.
    While I do fear a card number being stolen now I have a few with low limits to minimize the risk.

    I do see people who own cash business like small stores, dinners and such in line at the bank every single day depositing money and think that I'm glad not to have that hassle.
    Other side is there is that whole lure of non-recorded transactions.

    When wheeling and dealing with individuals on a price the appearance of a roll of bills at the right time certainly has a physiological effect that can help the buyer's negotiating position and I would miss that.

    Cashless transactions do seem to favor the place you buy from as the pain is not the same as emptying out your wallet so perhaps you will spend more.
    I know I find myself guilty of such even with vending machines that take cards and phones.
    Shovel actual cash out of my pocket in and I think harder about the price and maybe say no, swipe a card and I pay whatever for the product I want right now.
    The break room where I work is governed by such. Sandwiches, chips, drinks and such on a self serve system.
    It will not accept cash for payment. Yet the machine will accept cash to be put on a card they give you.
    Somebody did his/her homework here so kudos to them.

    One it is easier for the consumer, two the consumer will ante up more.
    Sort of a win-win although the consumer pays for it, perhaps unknowingly so maybe a win-loose with no real pain noticed.
    We all want to bring the most money home and inflict no pain on our customer while doing it.
    Bob

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    IMHO if you think cash is of real value your even dumber, cash is no more real than the digital numbers in your bank balance, there all manipulatable by others. In some ways its just a way of enslaving modern man, they use to use wipes, now they use magic numbers, achieves the same, keeps you controlled and doing what they want.

    Real value is tangible objects others want, weather that be gold, diamonds or a humble carrot. Real value is no more a number printed how ever securely on a piece of paper or plastic, or a digital number on the web, there only worth something while others accept them or want them. You can eat the carrott, you can marry the wife with a gold ring, nice diamond and you can turn aluminum with beutiful finishes, thoes have real value, but a bit of paper with a number, well what can you really do with it if no one accepts it???

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    One it is easier for the consumer, two the consumer will ante up more.
    Why do people think it is easier ? If I want to buy something I walk up to the register, they ring it up, I hand over the money. Done. If you pay with a card you're going to sit down once a month and go, "Hmm, what the hell did I buy at Furberstickles, for thirty-five bucks ? I don't even remember going there. Honey, did you buy something at Furberstickles ?" And there's always the "holy shit, how did I spend that much this month ?"

    I find cash to be much more convenient.

    @ adama : agreed, it's just pieces of paper. But at least it's pieces of paper I can hold in my hand, not a number in a database somewhere

    Ask anyone from Greece how they liked being a bank-based society a couple years ago. All they could get was like three bucks a day ... I bought a couple items for Greek friends then and shipped them on credit, because they could not. The banks got in trouble so the people had nothing.

    "It can't happen here !"

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    The "easy" of cashless is for the vendor, not the customer. That said, lower cost of business does allow slimmer margins, competitively, and better pricing. Case in point: Amazon, usually. Not retail perfection, of course.

    Re: cash itself being worth something? Not really. Just as much a fiat currency as Bitcoin, really. But institutionally/governmentally backed, supported, manipulated, and ultimately trusted more than Bitcoin.

    I recall reading the "legal tender for all debts" applied to actual debts -- as in settling a credit account -- rather than purchases, where it wasn't a credit situation (for any longer than it took to eat your meal). It's been awhile since I read that, and IANAL, so YMMV. I believe the thing I read was in response to one of those "pay your 10 years of parking tickets/library fines/etc. with bags of pennies" deals.

    And the less-known benefit to retailers/banks of cashless transactions is the sale of purchasing data specifically linked to you. What brands/sizes/flavors you buy at the market. What fast food you eat, and when. Etc, as mentioned above. Sale of your data for sifting and analysis is big business, and a profit center for card processors and banks.

    Like WOPR says in 'War Games', the only winning move is not to play. Tough to pull that off, of course.

    Chip

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    If I get and use an EZPass card, keeping it in tinfoil won't work
    as you drive thru the toll booth now eh ?

    Plate grabber cameras don't function too well with 6" of snow
    blasted over the whole back of the car (even if you clean the
    car when you start out, driving for awhile will apply a large
    "Drift" on the back, covering everything)

    The point of the toll road being allowed to levee charges
    (for non payment) on your drivers license is absurd.

    If I don't pay my repair bill to the local garage, even if the
    owner applies a "garagemans lien", the police don't enforce it
    by pulling your license.
    If you don't want your EZ Pass read "accidently" at other times just store it in one of those aluminized mylar zipper bags that a lot of dried fruit comes in. Pull it out and slide it into a bracket on the windshield when needed or just hold it near the windshield. It is a radio frequency transponder so it just needs to avoid being blocked by metal.

  23. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    If you don't want your EZ Pass read "accidently" at other times just store it in one of those aluminized mylar zipper bags that a lot of dried fruit comes in. Pull it out and slide it into a bracket on the windshield when needed or just hold it near the windshield. It is a radio frequency transponder so it just needs to avoid being blocked by metal.
    Interesting side light on that.
    Years back (ford?) used a resistive coating on the windshield as a defroster.
    It worked as a defroster but also blocked rf. Transponders were rare, but it also blocked radar detectors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    Most of the folks (credit card companies, merchants, etc.) pushing this don't so much want control, as either the savings of transaction costs or a fractional cut of the action.
    Interesting thing about those "reward cards" is they started appearing shortly after a researcher wanted the government to make everyone do their grocery shopping at one store for a week or so in order for his study on consumer habits to acquire data. For obvious reasons his suggestion was rejected but then the reward cards started showing up soon after. Any chance many of them are/were partly funded by some "benefactor" in exchange for access to the data? I can't remember the publication or the name of the researcher or university but somehow remember them as local to Boston.

    Among some of the creepier aspects of modern life, the electric utility periodically sends a "comparison" of electric use vs that of neighbors. They couldn't make such a comparison without additional computer time and effort spent beyond that required for billing. I've seen additional signs that individual consumption is being watched and recorded at several levels and by various entities.

    PS: It isn't paranoia if they really are out to get you(r data).

    I see no problems with "cashless" where a stored value card can be purchased anonymously and reloaded (also anonymously) with cash for smaller purchases. While I'm sure there is already an extensive database on many of my purchases at least some of it (and related travel) is anonymous thanks to cash. Cash is fast, private, and with few exceptions "accepted everywhere". I'm old fashioned and if a hurricane takes down the grid it's nice to know there are people who will sell prepared food for cash. A pad of paper, battery operated calculator, and some lanterns work just fine for small vendors who cook with fuel. I saw this in the aftermath of Superstorm Sandy.


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