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  1. #781
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    I think you have it backwards. No one wants "oppressive policing", a loaded term. However in a crime ridden area there should be extensive, intensive and no tolerance policing. You can't let the good citizens succeed and rise without controlling crime.

    Going into crime ridden neighborhood like this makes sense and is not racist. What is racist is suggesting its been done because of skin colour.
    And yet there is still oppressive policing.
    Often legacy racist, or even actively in some cases.

    Ferguson is a classic case.
    And the resulting unrest is a predictable outcome.

  2. #782
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Welden View Post
    Right, that's why we have law enforcement and public schools.

    It's hard to get an education when the dropout rate is astronomical
    It's hard to have a safe childhood when there is a culture of crime.


    Oh wait, the oppressors make kids drop out and commit crimes. It's always the oppressors fault. No personal responsibility.
    Shit schools and trigger happy cops.
    Food deserts, no public transit.
    Crime...
    These are structural problems.
    Not problems of personal responsibility.

    Expecting a kid with no education and no shoes to pull himself up is stupid.

    Leaving those places to fester is wasteful and dangerous.

    Incarceration is more expansive than college FFS.

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  4. #783
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Obviously you have accepted the modern spin on the Robin Hood legend that is used to justify income redistribution.

    In the original legend they did not "steal from the rich to give to the poor" but instead robbed tax collectors and gave a PORTION of it back to the peasants from whom the taxes had been taken and kept the rest for themselves. Had they kept all of it the peasants would have had no incentive not to turn them in for rewards.
    Obviously you have no idea when something is written in jest. Have you even read the original classic or is your knowledge based on Hollywood?

    The Real Robin Hood - British History - HISTORY.com

  5. #784
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    We, Nicaragua and one other nation are not on board.
    Seems pretty clear the USA is an outlier.
    You are now discussing countries,your post that I quoted said People.Now if you wish to discuss countries then please say so,I am good,no I'm not, I'm bloody good,but even I cannot read your mind.If you would prefer me not to quote your posts then don't include me in them.

  6. #785
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Food deserts
    Oh yeah, america has a huge problem with lack of food. Lol

    no public transit.
    Cry me a river. Get a bike or walk. What do you think people did in the past? Oh it's too far to walk... boo hoo. Who is supposed to pay for this public transit you want?

    Expecting a kid with no education and no shoes to pull himself up is stupid.
    We have public schooling. Maybe try not dropping out? Maybe try not getting pregnant a 15?

    Leaving those places to fester is wasteful and dangerous.
    So give them more money?

    Incarceration is more expansive than college FFS.
    So don't lock up criminals?

  7. #786
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    EXACTLY !

    Free universities, funded by governments, bring in 150.000€ profits, per person, for every person thus educated, on average.
    To the governments.

    Average tax income in say Finland, with == nr 1 in worldwide education results and standards, gets 150.000 € profit, after the university is paid for, in tax returns.

    Emergency rooms cost == 20x more than planned medical care.

    It is simply much CHEAPER, and much more PROFITABLE for the government to provide free medical care, vs not providing it.

    In any rational capitalist society, the government pays for the education and the health care, and thus derives great benefits, in money, from;
    - the more educated populace,
    - lesser costs for emergency room care,
    - vastly lower overall medical costs, since medical situations do not get acute before cared for

    Thus any rational non-socialist country would immediately provide free education, and free medical care.
    Not free as in beer, but excellent general government-revenue funded services.

    Like military, police, fire, trash, sewers, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Incarceration is more expansive than college FFS.

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  9. #787
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Shit schools and trigger happy cops.
    Food deserts, no public transit.
    Crime...
    These are structural problems.
    Not problems of personal responsibility.

    Expecting a kid with no education and no shoes to pull himself up is stupid.

    Leaving those places to fester is wasteful and dangerous.

    Incarceration is more expansive than college FFS.
    And I from time to time get accused of "USA bashing".

    Life in Denmark - YouTube

    Danish Citizen describes living in a country with free healthcare and college - YouTube

    List of companies of Denmark - Wikipedia

    Give me a couple of years and I might be able to come up with something I don't like about living here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    And I from time to time get accused of "USA bashing".

    Life in Denmark - YouTube

    Danish Citizen describes living in a country with free healthcare and college - YouTube

    List of companies of Denmark - Wikipedia

    Give me a couple of years and I might be able to come up with something I don't like about living here.
    You live in a tiny place.
    The USA is really big.
    I have to drive days to get any where really bad.

    Denver is pretty nice no matter where you go.
    But we have active, involved policing, schools and government.

    Unfortunately we are about to hit some serious fiscal issues brought about by some stupid constitutional changes from back in the 90s

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    EXACTLY !

    Free universities, funded by governments, bring in 150.000€ profits, per person, for every person thus educated, on average.
    To the governments.
    We have free K through 12 education and 25% of students drop out. 1.2 million per year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Welden View Post
    Oh yeah, america has a huge problem with lack of food. Lol

    We have public schooling. Maybe try not dropping out? Maybe try not getting pregnant a 15?


    So give them more money?



    So don't lock up criminals?
    Hey John,

    On the surface I can agree with what you are saying.. But it isn't that simple, unfortunately.

    My old lady is an elementary school teacher, and some of the shit she deals with even makes me cry.

    Twice so far, mama's boyfriend in the paper for child molestation of one of her students. How
    do you fix that?

    Day after thanksgiving, pic of one of her students in the paper at the soup kitchen..

    Last day of school, supposed to be the best day of the year, and there are some kids crying..
    They KNOW they aren't going to get to eat much until school starts again, they aren't going to
    hear a kind word, or have a minute of care free fun for the next 2 months...

    Some of these kids are going to have a VERY hard life, they were just never given the things
    they need, and the school and teachers can only do so much..

    And the scary thing is, fucked up kids don't just come from violence and poverty and shitty parents.
    Some of the worst are the little fucktards that are coddled to the point that they are absolutely
    F'n useless, and will always be useless.


    I have no idea what the answer is, but it isn't as simple as just telling them to
    "suck it up buttercup"... Or pulling yourself up by your bootstraps.. Some can do it,
    some are so damaged they can't.

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  16. #791
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Shit schools and trigger happy cops.
    And people like you oppose school vouchers. The second comment I'll address under crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Food deserts, no public transit.
    Limited food choices yes, but often limited by what the locals want to buy. No point in stocking unpopular items that will go unsold until their expiration dates. The comment about no public transit is BS because these neighborhoods are part of cities. Usually buses run along main streets where the subways don't reach. Of course they don't have door to door service but who the hell in a city does? I've walked several blocks between subway and destination many times. Just part of being in a city.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Crime...
    And when the police try to do something about it people like you call them racist oppressors. In bad neighborhoods the innocent locals suffer the most and very few will cooperate with cops because of what the bad guys will do if they find out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    These are structural problems.
    Not problems of personal responsibility.
    They're both, and both need to be addressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Expecting a kid with no education and no shoes to pull himself up is stupid.
    It's not a case of no education but how successful the kid can be in a school full of disruptive troublemakers. "No shoes"? You're full of crap! that's pure propaganda.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Leaving those places to fester is wasteful and dangerous.
    It sure is but the kind of policies that masquerade as "help" is what perpetuates the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Incarceration is more expansive than college FFS.
    Yes it is, but trying to sentence a gun-toting drug-dealing high school dropout to college would only endanger the rest of the students and would do nothing to further his education. The only way to turn these kids around is to reach them before they get involved in the street life and unfortunately part of breaking the cycle is removing the lousy role models so many end up copying.

    People like you ANALyzing the problems of inner cities from your lily white suburbs is contributing to the continuance of those problems. They need real solutions that will work for THEM, not fantasies based on your own sheltered life.

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  18. #792
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    And people like you oppose school vouchers.



    Yes it is, but trying to sentence a gun-toting drug-dealing high school dropout to college would only endanger the rest of the students and would do nothing to further his education. The only way to turn these kids around is to reach them before they get involved in the street life and unfortunately part of breaking the cycle is removing the lousy role models so many end up copying.

    People like you ANALyzing the problems of inner cities from your lily white suburbs is contributing to the continuance of those problems. They need real solutions that will work for THEM, not fantasies based on your own sheltered life.
    How is a kid supposed to use that voucher when the parents can't get them across town to that better school?
    Voucher programs are so suburbanites can take their kids to religious schools with public tax dollars.
    They don't necessarily work, and frequently fail.

    You are correct on a lot of points.
    What you are missing is that a massive intervention is needed...because it's a massive historical problem.

    And yes, that problem has its roots in white supremacy.

    How to fix it?
    Not sure, but it's pretty clear it can't be expected to fix itself.

    And I grew up even more sheltered...I grew up rural.

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  20. #793
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobw View Post
    Hey John,

    On the surface I can agree with what you are saying.. But it isn't that simple, unfortunately.

    My old lady is an elementary school teacher, and some of the shit she deals with even makes me cry.

    Twice so far, mama's boyfriend in the paper for child molestation of one of her students. How
    do you fix that?

    Day after thanksgiving, pic of one of her students in the paper at the soup kitchen..

    Last day of school, supposed to be the best day of the year, and there are some kids crying..
    They KNOW they aren't going to get to eat much until school starts again, they aren't going to
    hear a kind word, or have a minute of care free fun for the next 2 months...

    Some of these kids are going to have a VERY hard life, they were just never given the things
    they need, and the school and teachers can only do so much..


    I have no idea what the answer is, but it isn't as simple as just telling them to
    "suck it up buttercup"... Or pulling yourself up by your bootstraps.. Some can do it,
    some are so damaged they can't.

    No matter how hard your life is, at the end of the day it all comes down to personal responsibility. Hard work and perseverance win. There is massive opportunity in the USA for those willing to go get it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    You live in a tiny place.
    The USA is really big.
    I have to drive days to get any where really bad.

    Denver is pretty nice no matter where you go.
    But we have active, involved policing, schools and government.

    Unfortunately we are about to hit some serious fiscal issues brought about by some stupid constitutional changes from back in the 90s
    You are right on about Gordon living in a tiny place. he is well insulated from the realities faced by so many in America. I can drive a few miles and end up in the wrong neighborhood. I've known people who escaped from those neighborhoods and they all say getting out was the best choice.

    Boston is generally pretty safe but some neighborhoods are like war zones thanks to the ultra-violent drug trade. I'll never forget the night we got on a wrong subway car (after a night on the town) and spent nervous minutes waiting at an open air platform just blocks from the "war zone" waiting for a subway car going back in the right direction. We were the only whites in the mass of people on the platform and while most were just ordinary people we knew what would happen if any of the street thugs showed up and found us there.

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    Great speech by Larry Elder about his Dad and the terrible racism he experienced. Larry is the kind of guy that needs to be listened to. Not people trying to convince others of how they should think of themselves as victims. (Miguels) It's so weird how people don't listen to winners like Larry Elder.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobw View Post
    Twice so far, mama's boyfriend in the paper for child molestation of one of her students. How
    do you fix that?

    Day after thanksgiving, pic of one of her students in the paper at the soup kitchen..

    Last day of school, supposed to be the best day of the year, and there are some kids crying..
    They KNOW they aren't going to get to eat much until school starts again, they aren't going to
    hear a kind word, or have a minute of care free fun for the next 2 months...
    .
    how sad is that? What I'm sick of is the BS twisting of everything around so that its racist and all us middle age white guys fault. Oh wait a sec, it must be some bully cops fault.

    The anecdotes I get is that many communities won't help police in efforts to clean up things and catch the bad guys. So as sad as it is, I find the notion that is is somehow the fault of a racist white government and infrastructure moronic.

    I don't know what you can do to change the trend. You can't help people that don't want help. The ones that want a better life hopefully extract themselves and the rest seem to perpetuate the problem.

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  27. #797
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    You live in a tiny place.
    The USA is really big.
    I have to drive days to get any where really bad.

    Denver is pretty nice no matter where you go.
    But we have active, involved policing, schools and government.

    Unfortunately we are about to hit some serious fiscal issues brought about by some stupid constitutional changes from back in the 90s
    It's about attitude, not size. Which is the most peaceful state in the USA?

    As to "I have to drive days to get any where really bad." then maybe you should get a faster car.

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  29. #798
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    You are right on about Gordon living in a tiny place. he is well insulated from the realities faced by so many in America.
    There are 500 million people in the EU. I can't think of any country that has anywhere near your "realities".

    "The EU has an area of 4,475,757*km2 (1,728,099*sq*mi), and an estimated population of over 510 million."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    It's about attitude, not size. Which is the most peaceful state in the USA?

    As to "I have to drive days to get any where really bad." then maybe you should get a faster car.
    The closest really bad neighborhood is St. Louis. I guess that's only a 12 hour drive.
    Unless KC has some I don't know about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgyver View Post
    how sad is that? What I'm sick of is the BS twisting of everything around so that its racist and all us middle age white guys fault. Oh wait a sec, it must be some bully cops fault.

    The anecdotes I get is that many communities won't help police in efforts to clean up things and catch the bad guys. So as sad as it is, I find the notion that is is somehow the fault of a racist white government and infrastructure moronic.

    I don't know what you can do to change the trend. You can't help people that don't want help. The ones that want a better life hopefully extract themselves and the rest seem to perpetuate the problem.
    Every people group has at some point in their history have had atrocities done to them.

    In just the short period of US history, we have had many non-African American people groups that were not handed a silver spoon and that were seriously mistreated.

    In the 16th and 17th centuries, it was common for many white Europeans and other groups to sell themselves into servitude to buy passage to the new world. In many cases these contracts last much longer than originally agreed due to the fact of unscrupulous behavior of the purchaser. There lot was not much different than regular slaves even though technically theirs was to be a limited duration contract.

    We have the Chinese, Japanese, Philippineos, Laotians, Vietnamese, Cambodians, etc. that have all immigrated here with less than an easy time.

    What I see today in particular is that the Black community is being victimized by the very people that proclaim to want to help them through our social welfare system. What we have done is create a new version of the plantation. We offer them free stuff as long as they vote for the politicians pandering for their vote. They only thing they have to do is continue living on the plantation in the plantation housing eating the plantation food.

    I think that there is a growing reality in the minority communities that the conservatives aren't the enemy and that the liberals aren't their friends.

    If you look at which demographic groups actually swung the election, it was the Blacks and Hispanics voting for Trump and in essence giving the finger to the Democrats with the business as usual attitude.

    I like listening to Larry Elders. I think he really tries to be fair and have an open discussion about issues that affect everyone. We need more voices of reason like him.

    Several years ago there was a movie called "Crash" that Hollywood was enamored with. In the movie all of the key players committed acts of racism and had acts of racism done to them. They also all did heroic things in adversity. The general theme was that racism was part of the human condition. We need to come to grips with the fact that we are capable of being jerks and that we don't need to consider ourselves as victims in that we are all victims at some point.

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