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  1. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Sorry to hear about your misfortune Paul. Hope things heal nicely.

    On the USA NHS front, Vermont was planning to implement single payer and dropped the idea after estimates of cost were deemed too high. Now California is planning to implement such a system. Vermont is a small state, California is a large one. If California can succeed a lot can be learned about how this could be done nationwide. I'm still skeptical because of so many factors unique to the U.S. but the states have always acted as laboratories for national programs and it will be interesting to see the results. If California can succeed it would certainly open possibilities.

    By success I mean funded by state taxes and fees without needing an infusion of cash from the feds or driving businesses and individuals out of the state. As I said, it will be interesting to see the results.
    I do understand that people are skeptical. I understand the folks on the right have concerns. I think they should be addressed. The thing is, healthcare is really a matter of life and death. It's much too important to become a shouting match between the right and left. We simply must get this right.

    I think it is time for Congress to stop playing politics and work together to create a truly great health care system that will assure superb care for all Americans far into the future. The only things that are essential are that every American citizen be covered cradle to grave, the quality of care must be excellent and that we get the very best out of every dollar we spend. That's a workable starting point.

    I'm glad to hear that you're looking at possible solutions. That's all its gonna take Scott - people of goodwill, considering every possible approach that might work, and working together to create something truly great that we can all feel good about.

    SquireOT? Health care for all.

    Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, Tahlequah OK

  2. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Sorry to hear about your misfortune Paul. Hope things heal nicely.

    On the USA NHS front, Vermont was planning to implement single payer and dropped the idea after estimates of cost were deemed too high. Now California is planning to implement such a system. Vermont is a small state, California is a large one. If California can succeed a lot can be learned about how this could be done nationwide. I'm still skeptical because of so many factors unique to the U.S. but the states have always acted as laboratories for national programs and it will be interesting to see the results. If California can succeed it would certainly open possibilities.

    By success I mean funded by state taxes and fees without needing an infusion of cash from the feds or driving businesses and individuals out of the state. As I said, it will be interesting to see the results.
    Must admit I was very surprised to read your post. I've written many times that I couldn't understand why one state didn't try some form of tax financed health care. Just think if CA succeeded as it is the richest state.

    Got a feeling though that the whole thing will turn political and politics, like insurance, should be avoided like the bubonic plague with health care.

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  4. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by gordon b. Clarke View Post
    just think if ca succeeded as it is the richest state.
    lolwut?????

  5. #404
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    Well California is the largest market in the US so has the best chance of pulling it off
    now if New York would jump in at the same time, big insurance would crap in their pants.

  6. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by 72bwhite View Post
    Well California is the largest market in the US so has the best chance of pulling it off
    now if New York would jump in at the same time, big insurance would crap in their pants.
    Large market has little to do with being rich.


    Quick googling:
    Bankrupt California City Seeks to Fix Politics and Finances - Bloomberg
    http://www.cnbc.com/2016/05/26/calif...ture-dims.html
    $1.9 billion error adds to California deficit projection
    California Dangerously Close To Bankruptcy; Politicians Unfazed - Conservative World Daily

  7. #406
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    Large market has everything to do with making a single payer plan work,
    as does large economy.
    there is a bunch of money here just not always well managed

  8. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by 72bwhite View Post
    bunch of money here just not always well managed
    That's the only point I'm making.

    A lottery winner that becomes an alcoholic is not rich for long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonok View Post
    Just to put things in perspective, I'm a trauma surgeon.
    I take care of whomever comes through my door. Many, if not most of my patients are indigent, and frankly, I could care less. They are provided with the best care available anywhere in the world.

    Cost is not a consideration at this point, if it's what we need to do to save a patient, but it sure will be if the government ends up in charge.

    Seems pretty likely that an old guy with heart disease, lupus, a cancer history and end-stage liver disease would be on the short list for "the pill" that Obama said we should give to old people rather than treating their conditions.
    Citation please.
    Where did he say that.

  10. #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by jNieman View Post
    lolwut?????
    Economy of California - Wikipedia

    Economy of the United States - Wikipedia

    Is the one really better than the other?

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  12. #411
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    Take the pill...
    Nope.
    My mother said there's a big difference between extending life and prolonging death...and she was a nurse.
    That's the comment.
    Please show me where Obama said you should just 'take a pill'.

  13. #412
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    California is actually doing pretty well these days; not only the country's largest but in the top three on a per capita basis: 216’s States with the Best & Worst Economies | WalletHub(R)

    Missouri is #30 on that list. The usual trash talk is between Texas and California and here again, we're doing OK: http://www.politifact.com/california...-faster-texas/

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSquier View Post

    ... it is time for Congress to stop playing politics and work together to create a truly great health care system that will assure superb care for all Americans far into the future. The only things that are essential are that every American citizen be covered cradle to grave, the quality of care must be excellent and that we get the very best out of every dollar we spend. That's a workable starting point.
    While I agree, I don't see a way to keep politics out of the legislative process, which will be required to set the system up.

    And there are those, who have some power, who are not interested in a single payer system. The Freedom Caucus, for instance, who doesn't think the Fed should have anything to do with health care. And there are those who don't want to spend money on people with less than themselves.

    The Freedom Caucus is a minority and can be outvoted, but the selfish faction, both in Congress and the voting populace, is quite a bit larger and can't/shouldn't be ignored. Seems like the problem is how to convince them that singlepayer is in their self interest. Safe to say, appeals to altruism don't seem to be effective.

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    Since the start of this thread one of the things that puzzled me was that the two guys most insistent on a single payer system for the U.S. were already covered by such systems, one by the Indian Health Service and the other by the Danish Health Service.

    Here's how one of them responded to Jonok's suggestion that he doesn't "have a dog in this fight".

    Quote Originally Posted by OldSquier View Post
    Yeah, I do. My wife isn't an Indian. She took recourse to the ACA.
    So he admits he wants such a national system so his (second) foreign born wife can get health care at taxpayer expense. Saying his wife took "recourse to the ACA" is hardly praise for the ACA.

    But what of the other guy? Does he "have a dog in this fight"? If I remember correctly not only his mother and father but also his brother emigrated to America years ago.

    Perhaps the title of this thread should have been "OT? Health care for my relatives."

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    Quote Originally Posted by neilho View Post
    While I agree, I don't see a way to keep politics out of the legislative process, which will be required to set the system up.
    While that is very true it requires politicians that actually care about their voters other than just wanting votes from them.

    The only explanation I can think of why your politicians do nothing is that they are being paid not to do anything by some.

    Top 1 Ways the US is the Most Corrupt Country in the World | Informed Comment

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  19. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by neilho View Post
    While I agree, I don't see a way to keep politics out of the legislative process, which will be required to set the system up.

    And there are those, who have some power, who are not interested in a single payer system. The Freedom Caucus, for instance, who doesn't think the Fed should have anything to do with health care. And there are those who don't want to spend money on people with less than themselves.

    The Freedom Caucus is a minority and can be outvoted, but the selfish faction, both in Congress and the voting populace, is quite a bit larger and can't/shouldn't be ignored. Seems like the problem is how to convince them that singlepayer is in their self interest. Safe to say, appeals to altruism don't seem to be effective.
    You're certainly right. I think the way forward lies in our convincing the right who oppose single payer that they stand to benefit from its passage in no small way. Not in telling them time and again why they're wrong. Nobody is won over that way. Why not let them score a political victory too if we get good healthcare?

    Squire

    Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, Tahlequah OK

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    But what of the other guy? Does he "have a dog in this fight"? If I remember correctly not only his mother and father but also his brother emigrated to America years ago.
    Not sure if I'm "the other guy" or not

    It is true that my parents emigrated to the USA shortly after I emigrated to Denmark.

    The interesting thing is that my father emigrated to the USA to work in a hospital (Taylor Manor, MD) and ended up with his own department.

    My brother, 17 years old at the time, then had a decision to make. Stay in Scotland, travel to the USA or to Denmark. He lives 1 hour from where I do

    Old picture but this is him on his yacht so he seems to have made the right choice.

    ian.jpg

  21. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Since the start of this thread one of the things that puzzled me was that the two guys most insistent on a single payer system for the U.S. were already covered by such systems, one by the Indian Health Service and the other by the Danish Health Service.

    Here's how one of them responded to Jonok's suggestion that he doesn't "have a dog in this fight".

    So he admits he wants such a national system so his (second) foreign born wife can get health care at taxpayer expense. Saying his wife took "recourse to the ACA" is hardly praise for the ACA.

    But what of the other guy? Does he "have a dog in this fight"? If I remember correctly not only his mother and father but also his brother emigrated to America years ago.

    Perhaps the title of this thread should have been "OT? Health care for my relatives."
    Scott sometimes you go so low I figure you slither rather than walk. Have you ever thought about the fact that when you point a finger 3 are pointing back at you?

  22. #419
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    In simple terms.
    What we have is the consequence of thinking that the magick market gods can fix everything.
    They can't.
    In fact they frequently make things worse.

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  24. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post

    So he admits he wants such a national system so his (second) foreign born wife can get health care at taxpayer expense. Saying his wife took "recourse to the ACA" is hardly praise for the ACA.
    Scott,

    First, I didn't seek to "praise" the ACA by pointing out that my wife was enrolled in that plan. I was simply making a statement of fact in answer to a question posed by Jonok. Something wrong with that?

    As for my motives in wanting a tax-financed, single-payer system like Medicare for All, they do go well beyond simple self-interest in having my beautiful sweet wife covered. You can believe this or not, but, while I really do want a great healthcare system for her, I want one for your family too. I want everyone in this country to benefit from the best healthcare system in the world. I believe America's greatness makes this a very achievable goal. We just have to stop with all this acrimonious shit and resolve to advocate together for the creation of a truly world-class system.

    Do you really want to argue about people like my wife getting healthcare? Why does that prospect upset you so? If you knew her or the other woman in my life you would love them, I assure you. It's just impossible to not like them. I'm sure you have a very nice family - it's not like I want something that they can't have too Scott. Why do you hate my family or others who may not be or think just like you?

    Does it bother you that my healthcare as an Indian is free of cost to me? I hope you know that our tribes foot a huge portion of the bill using income from tribal businesses. The other portion is provided by the government pursuant to solemn treaties between sovereign nations. Believe me, the cost to Native people has been very high indeed. We have more than paid for what we receive.



    Squire

    Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, Tahlequah OK

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