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  1. #41
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    I think the US got the president it deserved


    Anyway


    Peter

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  3. #42
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    Disinformation is not rigging in the sense trump was saying.
    And she won the popular vote by almost three million.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJD View Post
    A lot of the manufacturing jobs have and will continue to be lost to technological advances and automation along with our country's addiction to cheap crap. Salvaging a few jobs at the carrier plant isn't a negative but it's a band aid that accomplishes what in the big picture? Those jobs were secured by tax incentives to offset the savings the company would have generated by moving jobs to Mexico. Who pays for those tax incentives? United technologies, which owns carrier, generates billions in revenue through government contracts, do they seriously need a tax incentive to keep jobs here?...of course not, but it's a capitalist society and profits dictate job growth and cuts. I don't see the issue with being upfront and candid that many of these jobs aren't coming back. I hope trump does shake up the system and is able to secure more jobs and I don't have a problem with tax incentives to accomplish that. You, like many on both sides, seem pretty hell bent on simply calling out one party when the balance of power swings like a pendulum every two to four years. Massive corporate entities run this country, not politicians, yet no one wants to call out the corporations that have profit margins in the billions and no problems cutting jobs or offshoring to increase their coffers.
    From your post I don't think you understand how big public corporations work. When making decisions, the only group that matters is the stockholders. If the CEO can increase the dividends or the value of the stock by one penny they will do so. It all comes down to the bottom line. All of "good public relations and charity" is there strictly for the good of the corporation. If there was no monetary reward, they wouldn't do it.

    Tom

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  6. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    From your post I don't think you understand how big public corporations work. When making decisions, the only group that matters is the stockholders. If the CEO can increase the dividends or the value of the stock by one penny they will do so. It all comes down to the bottom line. All of "good public relations and charity" is there strictly for the good of the corporation. If there was no monetary reward, they wouldn't do it.

    Tom
    This is a fairly new phenomenon.
    Is shareholder value a myth?

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    Thanks to all the posters whose posts have been factual and informative. US politics are... well... foreign to me, and I'm always happy to learn more.

    George

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    Quote Originally Posted by billetspeed View Post
    This coming from a guy who lives in DC where the 4 surrounding VA counties are the richest in the country. Have you been to middle America?
    You're right, I live in DC, one of the 4 people born here, have zero interest in political bullshit and grew up at a time when the city was the murder capitol of the world and the city was a shit show still recovering from riots that ravaged it decades earlier. Far cry from its current standing.

    Aside from my own business venture, I work with my dads company that sells brake shoes to the railroad industry which encompasses every nook and cranny of middle America and is directly tied to many different aspects of industry in this country. It has definitely been a mixed bag over the last few years, some of the RR's struggle, some have continued being profitable. One of his largest customers is a RR that works with the US steel industry and work has slowed up for them as it's easy to see from their volume of orders. So despite your assumptions of what I'm exposed to based on where I live, the struggles of many in middle America are not lost on me as it has a direct impact on my dads company. Not once did I suggest this country is in excellent shape, my comment reflected the idea that the economic state of this country could be much worse given the circumstances and recession surrounding Obamas first term.

    I don't think it mattered who was in office the last two terms, the country was headed for tough times regardless as the housing crisis and recession was a freight train heading off the tracks. I took issue with the concept that things couldn't be worse. You're entitled to disagree, don't have a problem with that wherever you live.

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  10. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    From your post I don't think you understand how big public corporations work. When making decisions, the only group that matters is the stockholders. If the CEO can increase the dividends or the value of the stock by one penny they will do so. It all comes down to the bottom line. All of "good public relations and charity" is there strictly for the good of the corporation. If there was no monetary reward, they wouldn't do it.

    Tom
    Perhaps I didn't articulate myself well, but your comment is exactly what I was trying to highlight...that job cuts and growth are tied into profits. I used the carrier example to the effect that the jobs were kept at that factory because a deal was made with the state of Indiana which made financial sense for the company.

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    People forget how bad it was.
    And it could have been much worse if prompt action had not been taken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    People forget how bad it was.
    And it could have been much worse if prompt action had not been taken.
    Our gross was bad in 09 and 10. Every year since it has been at least double what it was in those years. Yes, even under Barry.
    My advice to all of you: don't worry about who the hell is president. Keep doing what you do, and do it well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    But guess what folks! It's becoming obvious to a much larger number of people that there is only one political party in America and that both branches work for the same bosses. Magic only works if the sleight of hand is not revealed and in trying to defeat Trump they have revealed far too much.
    If you believer Donald F'ing Trump is your savior...

    Well, good luck to you. There's a lot more I could say about the dogs you lie with, but there's fleas to go around for everyone, I guess.

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    The few liberals in this thread are typical head in the sand, all in for the dem party, blame makers. That Democrat party serves up some seriously strong Kool aid. Defend Obama NO MATTER WHAT. Same for Clinton. I hear it all the time about Bill and that it was really, "no big deal" that he got head in the white house. I hate to tell you but yeah, that is a big deal. It just plain is and the fact you think it's not is a perfect example of the double standard you have and the lock step you're in with the Democrat party. Just like trying to defend Obama care. To me it's a total disaster and I know the damage when a family has their health Insurance premium quadruple in two years. Someone has to pay and it isn't the poor folks that can't pay. It's the folks that can barely pay. Same for defending Hillary with the emails. She broke the law and should be in jail for that. Screwed a bunch of Jamaica and should be in jail for that too. Wanted to drone (kill in my opinion and many others) Julian Asiange and that gets brushed. The list of her crimes are never ending yet her appologists refuse to see her as anything other than the ultimate female. Her husband is almost as bad a person as she is but she still takes the evil person cake.
    You lost but you can't deal. Sniveling babies were shocked (as I was tbh) that she didnt win, "by a landslide" as the big three, yup all of them used that word, network news stations said. The biggest upset in political history and liberals are to blame. Not Russia and not Trump. Hillary, with all the country, other than those that elected the new president, behind her couldn't win. Even with the Dnc, promising Sanders wouldn't win the primary, couldn't carry her to the white house.
    The same sorry ass cry, "she won the popular vote" (this had to be said at least once by a sniveling liberal). We all know that's total bullshit. She won California by more votes than she won the popular vote so guess what? She won California. The electoral college is in the midst of doing precisely what America needs it to do. C'mon liberals, you DO want fairness right? You don't want the election decided by one ultra strong politically leaning state right? I mean how fair would that be?
    Verbal feces imo. It's like Jill stein saying the recount was for every American. Who believes this shit?

    Galaxy S4, Slimkat
    If I wasn't married I'd quit fishing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Those on the left, including the neo-cons, still don't seem to grasp just what spirit has been awakened in a large chunk of the American population.
    Yeah, all those Confederate Battle flags, guys in white sheets, and worse. That's the spirit that Made America Great Again.

    We'll buy any old crap if it's packaged and sold with enough noise and theater.

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  19. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Then we see resurface the same old allegations about "Russian vote hacking" even though no one is claiming that anyone actually hacked into the balloting system but rather "unfairly influenced" voters by revealing what the Democrats wrote about them in private. An attempt is made to tie this to both Putin and Trump as "proof" of some kind of "treason" even though we are not at war with Russia and even do quite a bit of cooperation with them including the International Space Station, purchase of rocket engines, and energy deals. Some of the same noise also emanates from European leaders and media who blithely ignore how dependent they are on Russia for energy.
    I don't know why Nixon didn't use that argument to defend himself during Watergate. Maybe he ordered the break in at the Democratic National Headquarters to reveal to the voting public what the Democrats were writing about them in private. (As you recall, the break in is what started Watergate.)


    All 17 (?) of the U.S. intelligence agencies have concluded that Russia was responsible for the hacking of the Clinton campaign emails, and that Putin directed it. If the Trump camp had any involvement with the Russian hacking, then we basically have a repeat of Watergate. Given the close relationship between some of Trump's key players and Russia, it seems prudent for the House and/or the Senate to investigate further. Our need for rocket engines or access to the space station (or our Allies dependance on Russian oil) are not legitimate reasons to avoid an investigation.

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    "Can we all get along?"

    Rodney "Glug glug glug" King

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  22. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by challenger View Post
    The few liberals in this thread are typical head in the sand, all in for the dem party, blame makers.
    I'll point out that "head in the sand" is actually pretty sweet when it's a nice beach with the warm sun giving one a tan. And it sure beats that dark abdominal cavity that most of our rightward brethren have buried their heads in. But you be you, and keep rocking on with your "core" beliefs.

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  24. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonlight machine View Post
    Why can't you guys give the guy a chance, how can he be any worse than the last 8 years?

    I'm OK with giving the guy a chance -- slim as those chances may be. Can also answer your second question, in my own case.

    You've probably been living a different life over the past 8 years than many of us? Maybe you lost your business? Saw buddies die? Or??

    What a bad 8 years looks like (for me).
    The eight years under Bush my retirement account was trashed due to unregulated Wall St. shenanigans. I actually knew people killed in terrorist attacks and overseas in places like Iraq. Worried about my son who joined the Army. Got cancer (not blaming that on anyone, except maybe the doctor who twice misdiagnosed it) and started paying tens of thousands for medical care despite having paid ever-increasing medical insurance payments my entire life. Watched buddies lose their businesses and livelihoods. That's the worse a Presidential administration has been personally -- call it a benchmark if you will. Still, I and we got through it well enough.

    What decent 8 looks like. During the more recent 8 years my retirement account came off life support. Fewer died in both terrorist attacks and abroad. Medical care improved and costs decreased as I became eligible for Medicare -- and found myself happily living past my 6 months "expiration date." Fewer folks died in terrorist attacks and abroad. Saw grim faces all around me become more neighborly. Watched (and sometimes helped) buddies start new and successful ventures. Wasn't the best 8 years of my life -- but decent overall.

    All of which is to say, speaking personally, things have been pretty good the past 8 years -- and could, indeed, get a whole lot worse.

    The next 4? Just reading the tea leaves -- here are some of the possibilities:
    - increasing conflict with China, at least a trade war, maybe real war?
    - energy policy gone bonkers, nukes and nuclear plants mismanaged under Perry?
    - Russia's Putin nibbling away at free world interests (including our own) everywhere?
    - ISIS with new PR wins from the guy who wants waterboarding "and worse" back?
    - health care continuing to be a political football, with some dying and most still paying 2x per capita other countries
    - environmental protections trashed -- trying to catch up to Beijing in air pollution and chemical spills?
    - education system privatized, for-profit schools teaching the world is 6000 years old and genes something you wear?
    - one time sell off of US assets (oil and coal rights, development on public lands) -- good in short term, bad in long term?
    - lying, cheating, scheming, private parts grabbing, self aggrandizing as the new role model for kids -- from Trump to Omarosa?
    - the country's moral leadership trashed, the relatively peaceful world since the Cold War trashed?
    - retirement once again trashed, Medicare crippled, Social Security privatized -- bringing us to:
    - Goldman Sachs et al back fully in charge -- financial scheming continues to outpace real value adding business?
    - the trillions of increased debt most economists predict under Trump's tax cuts for the rich, energy & financial sectors, etc.
    - another great recession as Congress strips financial regulations but forgets to reinstate Glass Steagall?
    - you get the idea . . . things could get worse

    Could also make some gains. It's hard to predict the future and lots of things, like our tilted tax system and infrastructure need repair.

    Personally, I find it hard to imagine that anyone with the time or background to be a frequent poster here (e.g. "get back to work, if things are so bad") has had all that terrible a past 8 years. And, assuming we avoid nukes, pandemics, and the like, I don't see us having an insufferable next eight. Still, suffer we might.

    It's true enough that Clinton was neither inspirational nor an agent of change. Bad on the Democrats for not doing better. Even worse for the third of our population that doesn't pay attention or participate as citizens.

    We'll have to see what change a Trump administration manages to bring. One potentially useful consequence is that folks may start paying more attention to the sort of moral, financial, educational, institutional, regulatory, rule of law etc. underpinnings that made the country great in years past. Personally, I'm a whole lot more worried for the generations ahead than my own.

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    Pete, I kept hitting the "Like" button, but it only gave you the one upvote. Glad to hear you're doing well after the cancer treatment, long may that wave.

    We do have real problems with healthcare in the country, between the "pharma-bros" and the older-school interests there's far too much of our dollars being wasted or put into too few pockets. It's going to take some real statesmanship from grownups to change that, we've been continually blocked in that area, and that MUST change. I hope that some form of single payer will come into play, along the lines of other "first world" countries.

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  27. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    I'm OK with giving the guy a chance -- slim as those chances may be.

    Still, you've probably been living a different life over the past 8 years than many of us? The eight years under Bush my retirement account was trashed due to unregulated Wall St. shenanigans. I actually knew people killed in terrorist attacks and overseas in places like Iraq. Worried about my son who joined the Army. Got cancer (not blaming that on anyone, except maybe the doctor who twice misdiagnosed it) and started paying tens of thousands for medical care despite having paid ever-increasing medical insurance payments my entire life. Watched buddies lose their businesses and livelihoods.

    During the more recent 8 years my retirement account came off life support. Fewer died in both terrorist attacks and abroad. Medical care improved and costs decreased as I became eligible for Medicare -- and found myself happily living past my 6 months "expiration date." Fewer folks died in terrorist attacks and abroad. Saw grim faces all around me become more neighborly. Watched (and sometimes helped) buddies start new and successful ventures.

    All of which is to say, speaking personally, things have been pretty decent the past 8 years -- and could, indeed, get a whole lot worse.

    Just reading the tea leaves -- here are some of the possibilities:
    - increasing conflict with China, at least a trade war, maybe real war?
    - energy policy gone bonkers, nukes and nuclear plants mismanaged under Perry?
    - Russia's Putin nibbling away at free world interests (including our own) everywhere?
    - ISIS with new PR wins from the guy who wants waterboarding "and worse" back?
    - health care continuing to be a political football, with some dying and most still paying 2x per capita other countries
    - environmental protections trashed -- trying to catch up to Beijing in air pollution and chemical spills?
    - education system privatized, for-profit schools teaching the world is 6000 years old and genes something you wear?
    - one time sell off of US assets (oil and coal rights, development on public lands) -- good in short term, bad in long term?
    - lying, cheating, scheming, private parts grabbing, self aggrandizing as the new role model for kids -- from Trump to Omarosa?
    - the country's moral leadership trashed, the relatively peaceful world since the Cold War trashed?
    - Goldman Sachs et al fully in charge -- financial scheming continues to outpace real value adding business?
    - another great recession as Congress strips financial regulations but forgets to reinstate Glass Steagall?
    - you get the idea . . .

    True enough that Clinton was neither inspirational nor an agent of change. We'll have to see what change a Trump administration manages to bring. One potentially useful consequence is that folks may start paying more attention to the sort of moral, financial, educational, institutional, regulatory, rule of law etc. underpinnings that made the country great in years past.
    If someone is so blind to reality to believe this drivel then it is pointless to argue with them. Internationally this country is in it's most precarious position since the Cold War, and the Middle East is on fire with Iran on the ascendancy and Russia sitting right in the middle of it. China is flexing it's muscles in the far east and ingratiating itself with the 3rd. world. Pakistan and India are one mistake away from all out nuclear war. On the home front black lives matter is burning down the inner cities and cops are being assassinated left and right. What good is insurance when you have a $12,000 deductible? Obama care only works if you don't. Full employment these days is 29 hours at $7.25/hr. or just stop looking and don't be counted. With the working adult ratio down 4 to 5 points from historical numbers you can add those points to the unemployment number to get a truer picture, more like 8% or 9%. The democrats get caught red-handed and blame the messenger, and their followers believe it. As I said before, we will soon see who is right, if only we will open our eyes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rbdjr59 View Post
    If someone is so blind to reality to believe this drivel
    Someone is so blind as to write this drivel...

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    Quote Originally Posted by challenger View Post
    Same for defending Hillary with the emails. She broke the law and should be in jail for that.
    Well, Perry Mason, tell us what exactly was illegal about emails, or Bengazi, and in what universe is any of it a crime. You seem to have some insight into the our legal system that the pinhead Gowdy must have missed.

    That whole show was to keep the nation distracted watching her put out fires and take the pressure off orange julius there...

    I do agree she was lackluster and that the committee preferred her, I was a Sanders fan from the beginning. They tried to ignore him right out of contention...
    Anyone but Trump, though.


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