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  1. #881
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    Sometimes a broad brush simply cuts through the bullshit.
    Individualist politics are on the right.
    Collectivist politics are on the left. National Socialism ("Fascism") and International Socialism ("Communism") only differ theoretically to the extent that the government "owns" or does not "own" the means of production. As a practical matter, it is the government control of the individual required for the application of Socialism in any of its permutations that removes any meaningful difference between the two, or for that matter between those two egregious examples and the various permutations of Socialism espoused by the otherwise well-meaning among us.
    This only goes so far.
    Consider the liberal social policies defending individual rights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Outstanding post, Oldwrench!

    One of the things conservatives are only now learning is the skilled manner in which the left has predefined the limits of debate. A perfect example is "The Line" used in classes to define the political spectrum, which has Communism on the far left and Fascism on the far right. Accepting this model limits the range of choices between two socialist systems. In a truer model Both Communism and Fascism are well left of center with pure Anarchy on the far right and a range of democratic systems in the middle. Few realize that before inventing modern fascism Mussolini was a dedicated Communist who watered it down to be more acceptable to the Italian population.

    Proponents of limited debate don't WANT to cut through the bullshit.
    Quote Originally Posted by JNieman View Post
    No one in any serious educational environment teaches "a line". That implies only two factors of belief and a strictly linear position.

    The dichotomy of left/right is reductive bullshit meant to create oppositional forces among people who /should/ be banding together.

    To know this, though, I guess you'd have to do better than Trump at sourcing educational material, who seems to think Fox & Friends is sufficient.
    That's ridiculous.
    I was always taught that it's a circle, with far right and far left coming together at the bottom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Which is a symptom of big government. By giving excess power to government we get more cronyism rather than less. Without the cover of law crony capitalism couldn't exist for long. Even the cattle barons of the old west couldn't have held out against the more numerous "free grazers" without sheriffs and marshals backing them up and using "the law" to punish those who fought back.

    Governments love socialist schemes because they increase their power and reach and the biggest players, who also have the most lobbyists, love big government and lots of regulations because it restricts competition from smaller entities who must spend a greater percentage of profits navigating the maze.

    What has been evolving in the U.S. for some time now is very much along the lines of the fascist model with crony capitalism at the top and increasing socialism at the lower levels to control the population.
    Standard oil...he just hired the pinkertons.
    The cattle barons would have done the same.

    Money is power...it's only slightly cheaper to buy some laws than to show your hand directly.

  4. #884
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    That's ridiculous.
    I was always taught that it's a circle, with far right and far left coming together at the bottom.
    I've seen a circular pattern often, but only in superficial explanations. Typically to just sum up the idea that politics/power /isn't/ linear. Left/Right is also an exclusively relative meaning. It's only used to relate one entity to another. What is "Left" depends on where you're standing. It's never a definition such as "this is a right-wing idea" unless you are in a very specific context. No one ever started a 'right wing' government. It's not a plan. It's just a way to point a finger or box people up nicely so you can agree/disagree love/hate them without knowing anything about them.

    As many Europeans will tell you - what they call Far Right would probably be pretty centric or even slightly Left for us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JNieman View Post
    I've seen a circular pattern often, but only in superficial explanations. Typically to just sum up the idea that politics/power /isn't/ linear. Left/Right is also an exclusively relative meaning. It's only used to relate one entity to another. What is "Left" depends on where you're standing. It's never a definition such as "this is a right-wing idea" unless you are in a very specific context. No one ever started a 'right wing' government. It's not a plan. It's just a way to point a finger or box people up nicely so you can agree/disagree love/hate them without knowing anything about them.

    As many Europeans will tell you - what they call Far Right would probably be pretty centric or even slightly Left for us.
    The problem is the conflation of xenophobia, economics, and social issues.

    In this as in most current nations xenophobia and right wing economic theory fall in the same bucket usually, as well as religiously conservative morality.

    The collectivism of the third reich was not a product of the economic theory.
    It was a function of the authoritarians.
    Hitler was the Law and Order candidate.
    They needed someone to follow.

    What's missing from this conversation is a discussion of authoritarian policies in the context of xenophobia.

    Everyone here probably thinks that a broken leg should not consign you to dying in a ditch, and is willing to support programs to prevent that.

    Most people here recognize the rise of the oligarchy...even if we disagree on how to contain it.

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  7. #886
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Which is a symptom of big government. By giving excess power to government we get more cronyism rather than less. . . ..

    I'd say you're just partly right, Scottl.

    As a starting point, ask who buys/controls who? Do politicians bend large donors to their will? Or do the donors buy political favor? We might agree it's the latter. The root cause is unbridled self-interest of some large donors. Our military is in large part run by military contractors, our health care system by insurance, pharma, and medical conglomerates, our energy policy by energy incuments, and the like.

    So the part where I'd say you're right is that allowing politicians to create a poltical/legal/regulatory/tax/enforcement environment that favors the Shkrelis, Trumps, Kochs, Enrons, Halliburtons, Goldmans, BMS' etc. of the world is a problem.

    However, shrinking government to the level it can't do anything isn't the answer. Every system requires checks and balances to be stable. Otherwise, one powerful force swamps all the others. The answer isn't to destroy government, but to restore it to represent the best interests of its people. Personally, I'd like to see that interest centered in the middle and professional classes --- and for all our youth. The rich will do fine without special perks. The poor have a chance to do fine if there is a path to the middle class.

    The founding of this country came pretty much as a reaction to British crony capitalism; where the East India Trading Co. (of Boston Tea Party fame) and the Crown were acting in concert to screw America. Our founders did a generally exceptional job of assuring checks and balances between State and Federal govenments and also between executive, legislative, and judicial branches. They probably never suspected, though, that companies taking in 1/10 trillion a year would be buying political favor two centuries later. In any case, our own equivalents of the East India Trading Co. are now operating within the US -- and some sort of effective check and balance is required. Reforming government, not neutering it, is needed.

    We've already seen the studies where Congress enacts the laws their top donors want; not what the vast majority of their citizens want.

    Three simple steps in the right direction might include:
    - Get the hidden money out of politics. The "Citizens United" decision was a huge step in the wrong direction.
    - Have a balanced algorithm or an independent panel rather than self-serving politicians draw up political districts to avoid gerrymandering
    - Make it a crime, similar to the Canadian model, to just make up shit and call it the truth in politics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JNieman View Post
    ...serious educational environment...
    Taken very seriously indeed by its current practitioners, to be sure, but nonetheless a fatuous oxymoron right up there with "military justice." I'd offer "precision sheet metal" as another one but that might offend someone. Oh, wait, this isn't a metalworking forum so nobody will feel insulted.

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    It starts getting fun when the cartoonists get in on the act:

    Capitol Ink | Trump Watergate Complex

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    - Make it a crime, similar to the Canadian model, to just make up shit and call it the truth in politics.
    That isn't a crime in the USA?

    Here it's cost more than one government it's life and removed a few ministers from government.

    Politics of Denmark - Wikipedia

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    Quote Originally Posted by iwananew10K View Post
    this thread is about policy and actions possibly counter to the rule of law,
    When did y'all get so concerned about the rule of law ? Like, have you ever read the damned constitution ? Did you bother to read two, four, eight, and ten ? How about the executive power to wage war, which is entirely without basis in fact ? (Francis Dunham Wormuth, To Chain the Dogs of War) ...

    I'd be a hell of a lot more impressed with your ethics and concerns if you had bothered to express them AT ANY TIME DURING THE PAST FIFTY YEARS !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rex TX View Post
    Trump got where he is by giving all the naysayers the finger and working with the Americans who were sick and tired of being ignored.
    Agree with this. Trump wasn't elected because he was any good. He was elected because Billary sneered at the people she is supposed to represent. Even Eva Peron was smarter than that.

    And on the other side, no one with an IQ over ten would support any of the loser Republicans running. So he won. I was actually surprised and somewhat pleased. Smart move to go after the peasants our barons have screwed. Hillary the Backstabber is the devil's representative aboveground.

    But sadly, we were deprived of the opportunity to say, "Great White Mother in Washington speak with forked tongue ..." Damn.

    Now he needs to just ignore the losers and get on with the work he promised to do.
    Yes. Or maybe. Or maybe sort of. Depends on what you mean by "what he promised to do." Since he promised everything, you can pick and choose.

    He has a team of like-minded, very capable people in place, and more to come.
    Oh yeah. He's for the average Amurrican, that's why he appointed a Goldman guy to Treasury. Took Trump just about as long as Obummer to totally betray the people who voted for him - roughly one week.

    Thanks for the knife in the back, fella. The scar makes a nice match to the one our man Obummer gave me..

    Seriously for a moment, how's your heart ? Can you handle an aneurism ? Go to Rolling Stone (gag), find Matt Taibbi's articles, and go through them. Some will make you upset, that's okay, but pay attention to the ones about Wall Street. They are not hearsay and religious dogma, they are documented facts which no one has ever even attempted to deny, about what was done to us by Wall Street over the past ten or twenty years.

    I remember Bill Agee. Is he in Hell yet, getting a red-hot poker up the ass ? And he was just an early indicator of the hordes who came after. Judas Iscariot was a more admirable human being.

    He just needs to get rid of the lifer bureaucrats who are making trouble, and he needs to shut down the Obama team that is already working against him.
    He just needs to pay some group of ragheads to nuke Congress. That'd do the job nicely. Since our latest jets can only fly at 500 mph that shouldn't be too difficult.

    But somehow I doubt that'll happen. And if it did, you lunatics would just elect new assholes to give you the same old crap that you have now.

    Who was it said "elections have consequences"?
    Barbara Boxer, I think. Boy did she go to the Dark Side ... When she was a reporter for the Pacific Sun she wasn't too bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    Taken very seriously indeed by its current practitioners, to be sure, but nonetheless a fatuous oxymoron right up there with "military justice." I'd offer "precision sheet metal" as another one ....
    As someone who does a bit of "precision sheet metal", I'd have to agree. (Unfortunately, the truth in the sheet metal world seems to be, "if it looks good, it is good.") A friend who's an ex MP claims "military intelligence" as his favorite, mine being "crisis management".

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    I really don't know if a member of the US House of Representatives can be impeached.

    But I do want to thank Representative David Nunes (R-Calif) for putting the notion in the public's eye )

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    Sad thing is Nunes will probably be reelected.
    not sure if a fed can be recalled, we did throw a Governor out that way.

    wait till the midterms that's when he will be impeached.
    wasn't Johnson the only one that has actually gone to the Senate?
    Nixon resigned because he knew he would be impeached and convicted.
    and we have had some pretty bend Presidents, and still Nixon is the only one forced out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 72bwhite View Post
    and we have had some pretty bend Presidents, and still Nixon is the only one forced out.
    He made the mistake of pissing off the head of the FBI, which should tell you something

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    Trump's business network reached alleged Russian mobsters

    Looking more and more like the hook between Trump and the Russians is Trump's facilitation of Russian money laundering via selling them condos and apartments which are nothing more than parking places for their crooked money.

    Ken McCallion, a former US prosecutor in New York where most all major financial crimes are prosecuted, went so far as to say outright that Trump is being propped up by Russian oligarchs and if he lost the support of these goons then his empire would collapse in a short time. He's quoted in the article as well as making the same claim live on CNN.

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    Quote Originally Posted by metlmunchr View Post
    Ken McCallion, a former US prosecutor in New York where most all major financial crimes are not prosecuted ...
    Fixed that for you

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    Trump is on the phone right now pardoning him.

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    not sure how that letting the kids manage the money is going to fly
    give they seem to be getting government jobs


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