TV's Made in America OK but very shallow.

Made in America on TV - you really need to take another good look at this.
While these reporters have very good intentions, the approach is at best SHALLOW. No argument here as to the effect something like this could have in reviving the American spirit and add the element of pride in making a product in America - surely a winner.
But now let us look a little deeper. We see all these products made in USA, but what are we really looking at. Not much in this product requires a great amount of skill and training. While all these products certainly require a certain skill to be manufactured - it is not something that can not be made in Bolivia or Peru or Mexico. We are now competing against third world countries on their level.
This is the one side.
On the other side:
We do have very highly skilled areas of manufacturing as can be seen in our production of airplanes, rockets and all the products of silicon valley.
But here is what is missing: The middle level that produces the equipment needed to manufacture all these products.
More and more our leaders are realizing one critical point: Gentlemen, we have a skill shortage that will not allow us to remain part of the industrialized world and we are not doing anything to alleviate that problem. We are approaching the point where our country will not have enough qualified people to train the next generation of skilled workers.
What these reporters should be doing is looking past the t-shirt manufacturer and see where the machines that make those t-shirts come from. The same goes for all the other places shown on TV. Look and find out what equipment is being used and where does it come from? You will have to send a reporter that does not stand there in total awe of a CNC or worst just an automatic drill press.
I hope nobody suggests we use the old and time tested method of relying on our private industry to come up with a working formula for an apprenticeship program. It will no longer work because everybody will just do barely enough to supply his own business. And like I said before: where will the trainers come from? This will take a super effort by our Government and our Industry.
Otherwise we will just outsource more and more skilled work mainly because we are no longer capable of providing our industry with the tools needed.
It may already be to late.

Ps.: Found this interesting article on training programs in today BBC headlines.
BBC News - German apprenticeships: A model for Europe?

One of the most basic problems that we have here in America is that the higher education establishment has convince everyone that you're a loser if you work in a factory and that you're a double loser if you don't go to college. Like myself, I bet there are a lot of people on this forum that have not gone to college who somehow feel less adequate for not having done that. You were brain washed! Starting in kindergarten you got the message that you were a loser if you didn't go to college and they never stopped trying to indoctrinate you. I think I was in my mid 40's before I became comfortable with not being a college graduate and now even in my sixties I still feel like I'm guilty of something for not having a degree.

It's different in Germany, factory jobs are honorable and as a matter of fact in elementary school the teachers decide which students will go for a technical education or a university degree. There is no parental screaming that their child is special and that every half witted fool should go to college. The kids get high level technical training that will prepare them for good jobs when they graduate and they and their families are proud to have this education.

Unless we reverse the damage that is continuing to be done to us by the higher educational establishment we aren't going to be able to attract bright young people that we need at all levels of manufacturing.

Jake

PS; Send you're kid to college, the professors need your retirement account.

Large corporations dont think of themselves as American they think of themselves as Global. They go where the labor is the cheapest. We were China 100 years ago. We were cheap labor. I went to college even though I wanted to be a machinist when I was in high school. The jobs will not come back until the wages in other countries rise to a level comparable to ours or ours drop to their level or somewhere in the middle, then making products as close to the end user as possible will be the cheapest method of production. We only make up a small percentage of the worlds population and soon we wont be the big spenders. GM sells more cars in China than in the US, if they had to choose where to stay and make cars do you think they would choose the US. Hardinge sells more machines in china they moved production to China. The so called die is cast, unless of course we outlaw birth controll, but even then it would take a couple hundred years to catch up.

TVs Made in America?

'The quality goes in before the name goes on' closed up shop decades ago.

kpotter said:

Large corporations dont think of themselves as American they think of themselves as Global. They go where the labor is the cheapest. We were China 100 years ago. We were cheap labor. I went to college even though I wanted to be a machinist when I was in high school. The jobs will not come back until the wages in other countries rise to a level comparable to ours or ours drop to their level or somewhere in the middle, then making products as close to the end user as possible will be the cheapest method of production. We only make up a small percentage of the worlds population and soon we wont be the big spenders. GM sells more cars in China than in the US, if they had to choose where to stay and make cars do you think they would choose the US. Hardinge sells more machines in china they moved production to China. The so called die is cast, unless of course we outlaw birth controll, but even then it would take a couple hundred years to catch up.

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I think this is a very simple but accurate explanation of what's happening in the world right now. While there are many economic controls imposed by governments around the world; whether we like it or not the economy is driven by corporations and their needs. And, quite simply, corporations are driven by the need to make money and "enhance shareholder value". In my view it's this latter characteristic which causes us the most difficulty--most corporations will do almost anything to appease shareholders...

LKeithR said:

I think this is a very simple but accurate explanation of what's happening in the world right now. While there are many economic controls imposed by governments around the world; whether we like it or not the economy is driven by corporations and their needs. And, quite simply, corporations are driven by the need to make money and "enhance shareholder value". In my view it's this latter characteristic which causes us the most difficulty--most corporations will do almost anything to appease shareholders...

Click to expand...

You Sir, are spot on!!

The notion that owning shares in some corporation
"entitles" someone to periodic payments to provide or supplement personal income is matched in it's incorrectness only by the concept of speculating on the stock market.

Buying stock in order to realize overnight (literally and figuratively) windfall profits is a game whose hazards are matched only by gambling in Las Vegas or similar places in the first place and really violates the concept of Investing which is what the stock market is supposed to be about.

Rant over.

JG400 said:

One of the most basic problems that we have here in America is that the higher education establishment has convince everyone that you're a loser if you work in a factory and that you're a double loser if you don't go to college. Like myself, I bet there are a lot of people on this forum that have not gone to college who somehow feel less adequate for not having done that. You were brain washed! Starting in kindergarten you got the message that you were a loser if you didn't go to college and they never stopped trying to indoctrinate you. I think I was in my mid 40's before I became comfortable with not being a college graduate and now even in my sixties I still feel like I'm guilty of something for not having a degree.

It's different in Germany, factory jobs are honorable and as a matter of fact in elementary school the teachers decide which students will go for a technical education or a university degree. There is no parental screaming that their child is special and that every half witted fool should go to college. The kids get high level technical training that will prepare them for good jobs when they graduate and they and their families are proud to have this education.

Unless we reverse the damage that is continuing to be done to us by the higher educational establishment we aren't going to be able to attract bright young people that we need at all levels of manufacturing.

Jake

PS; Send you're kid to college, the professors need your retirement account.

Click to expand...

I'm with you Jake, and I have talked with you enough for me to know that you could sit at a table with 100 college graduate engineers and you'd baffle at least 99 of them with both the questions you come up with and the answers you have waiting.

Count me among those "not lucky enough" to have gotten a college education. While I truly appreciate those that do, I also have plenty of proof in people like you (and me?) who can really hold their own in any technical or business conversation that the degree isn't a guarantee of competence. It's an indicator of potential, but retention and application of the lessons learned is paramount to the education being time (and money) well spent.

Don't know about what is happening in the other developed countries, but the USA trade deficit with China is at a 4-1 ratio between imports and exports. China is improving it's economy at the cost of the USA. As many economists say we are becoming service based of course McDonald's is a serviced based company. Lost jobs in manufacturing that paid 2x-3x minimum wage, are replaced with food service, and retail sales jobs that pay barely minimum wage. A lot of once middle class people are now working poor, and rely on government assistance (food stamps, health care, subsidized housing) to survive.
Unfortunately no one other than an American manufacturer (us) or someone who lost a job because the company moved to China cares. I preach the evils of everything made in China on a sports related website I belong to, and no one cares. They think cheap Wal-mart junk helps keep inflation down. Also the consensus is those lost jobs aren't needed as people should all go to college or acquire a high level skill. My argument is the infiltration of Chinese products (other than electronics) doesn't help inflation. While the stuff is cheap, most is low quality and lasts a fraction of the time the products did when made in the USA. Best example is wiper blades, they used to last 4-5 years, now they make it that many months. By electronics I mean TVs, cell phones, dvd players etc. Most those items get the circuity inspected 100% (by USA made equipment) and are unlikely to be trash right out of the box like other items that have next to zero quality control. I honestly think we could make a lot of items back here by improving quality and durability to justify a higher price. I would be happy to buy a $50 set of wiper blades if they lasted 4 years like they used to, in the long run they would be cheaper.

My "best example" comparison might not be of wiper blades, rather that of shoes.

I have made parts for shoe manufacturing and shoe repair machinery. That business is all but gone. That's painful because I go out of my way to buy American-made shoes. I'm usually successful, but it can take a lot of shopping. If I don't shop, the cost can be overwhelming.

The difference lies is quality of materials and assembly. I have American-made shoes (steel-toed shop shoes as well as casual street shoes) that outlast the name-brand Chinese-made products by up to 10 to 1. Typically, I get at least 3 to 1 life. They cost, up to 3 times more, but not always.

The dressy-looking steel toed oxfords I have cost me a cool $100. They were made by a Berkshire Hathaway Group-owned company, HH Brown Shoe. I've had them for 3 years now, and aside from some serious gouges in the soles from hot chips, they're still in great shape. If they were cheap Chinese shoes they would have cost me $40 to $60, but I would have thrown them out after 6 months or less.

I wonder if the American & Shoen Machinery Company has a market in Asia. If they did sell there, it would likely be only materials and assembly that differed from the (few) quality shoes still made here.

Pixman, at least you can find your shoes. USA made wiper blades are no more. I even buy the more expensive imports, none of them can make it a year.

Wipers burn my ass. I put on a pair that were SUPPOSEDLY Michelin. They aren't worth a crap.

Michelin is BIG in tires and the like, right, they should make a good wiper. They suck.

I don't know what brand I just bought, off hand, got to put them on tomorrow.

George

Pixman,

30 some years ago, my Westinghouse had an in shop shoe store. Shoes were all Florscheims. I bought some of the best looking and fitting work shoes you would ever see, there. Steel toed Wellingtons, steel toed wingtips, probably, though I never looked, steel toed moccasins.

I have worn Florscheims for some 30 years. They are still about 80 to 100 bucks, for street shoes, but they are now made in India. I get about 1 year of walking out of a pair before I have to have the leather sole replaced. The heels last forever. Costs me 30 bucks to resole and heel them. Bargain.

Who in the hell in their right mind would buy and wear them goddamned ski boots that all the kids, AND all their dads wear. Look like barges on their feet. Was there a shooting o some such, when people lined up to buy the latest "Air Jordans" for 150 bucks a pair?

We have a lot of idiots in this country, a few of them post here, but surely you can't be so stupid as to buy 200 buck injection molded tenners.

But, then, perhaps we might.

Cheers,

George

LKeithR said:

I think this is a very simple but accurate explanation of what's happening in the world right now. While there are many economic controls imposed by governments around the world; whether we like it or not the economy is driven by corporations and their needs. And, quite simply, corporations are driven by the need to make money and "enhance shareholder value". In my view it's this latter characteristic which causes us the most difficulty--most corporations will do almost anything to appease shareholders...

Click to expand...

And the irony is, because many CEOs are paid in share options, they will do anything to inflate the value of those shares... see Enron for a prime example

What we should do is combine all the private corps into one huge conglomerate, then we'd really see things change.
<senior vice president 1>"Hey we're getting rid of 100 000 people to improve profits"
<senior vice president 2>" you dips**t, who do you think buys the products that make the profits in the first place?"

Boris

Dualkit said:

Pixman, at least you can find your shoes. USA made wiper blades are no more. I even buy the more expensive imports, none of them can make it a year.

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Ok, I'll give you that.

I used to buy Anco, or Trico in a pinch. The Anco wiper replacements were top quality, Trico was nearly as good. Remember when you could buy and easily change out just the blade insert? Now they want you to just replace the entire blade. The last good ones I seemed to be able to buy were the Anco Aero blades and replacement inserts. They would last me about two years, but that's about 40K to 50K miles and two severe, snowy and salty winters.

Now you buy a Bosch blade assembly and are lucky if you get a year out of them in sunny southern California.

I need to find out who makes the wipers on my new truck (GMC) because they are by far the best I've used.

First of all they are nearly pencil thin......never seen anything like them, but best of all, they are dead quiet, and do an amazing job at keeping the window clear even at high speeds on the highways.

I've bought replacement wipers in the past for our previous car and as others have stated after just a few months they leave streaks..........not cheap ones either.

Wrustle,

I believe the same type are used on my 2008 and 2011 Chevrolet Malibus. The 2008 had the OE blades on it for about 30 months, and I got them replaced by the leasing company just before the car became my wife's "new ride".

The problem was that there are no aftermarket replacements yet, only GM parts department stuff. I will dig through the receipts and see what they cost. I'll bet those on the Malibu cars are the same type as what's on your new GMC truck, just shorter.

They really are as you say though, just the best I've ever had. When they finally needed replacing on the '08, it was just some lines from score marks in the edge. Even as worn as they were there was never any skipping, streaking, chattering or annoying noises.

gmatov said:

Wipers burn my ass. I put on a pair that were SUPPOSEDLY Michelin. They aren't worth a crap.

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I've been surprised at some of the junk Michelin has put their name on recently, such as cheapo Chinese floor jacks and other related car service tools, as well as the wiper blades which I've heard from other people are no better than the rest of what's out there.

I'm aware there's money to be made in marketing your name, but to attach a name that's known for the highest quality of any brand of its core product to run of the mill Chinese junk just doesn't seem smart to me. While top quality wiper blades sold among the current crop of junk could help persuade customers to spend the extra money on Michelin when they need tires, the opposite is true as well. Someone buys Michelin wiper blades thinking they'd be good ones, and when they find them to be mediocre at best, they could logically assume the company's tires are no better than the rest of what's out there.

Michelin didn't get to be the world's largest tiremaker by selling Chinese junk, and you could bet your last nickel their name wouldn't be attached to such crap if Francois Michelin was still running the company.

People's brand loyalty and rating the worthiness item of an item by the name stamped on it is now misguided in our "global" economy. Good example, new alternators sold at chain auto parts stores are all made at two different factories in China, whether it says "Duralast Gold" Romaine Electric, NSA, etc,etc it is just a re-branded Chinese item. Even the importers alternate buying from both factories. It amuses me on car forms how people will argue back and forth about what brand is better when they all came from the same place and were made in the same run. The name on the item is rarely the company who made it.

Gordon B. Clarke said:

I find this interesting. Most European countries have apprenticeship programmes. In Denmark it isn't even only youngsters that serve apprenticeships - if jobs are lost due to something becoming almost "obsolete" or large companies close down in lesser populated areas the government steps in and retraining is given with pay.

The shipbuilding industry was once huge in Denmark. That's now almost history.

Does the USA have regulated programmes for branch trades? For example what does it take in the USA to be a recognized machinist?

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There are apprenticeship programs and journeymans cards here, and they are a help getting SOME jobs, but the majority of jobs you can walk in with a good resume and land the job WITHOUT a journeymans card. Just because a person has a journeymans card does not make him/her a for sure skilled craftsman either. You cannot be sure the person actually did a 4 year program either, I know more than 1 person that got theirs with NO schooling through some kind of program at a job they had.

Bill

willbird said:

There are apprenticeship programs and journeymans cards here, and they are a help getting SOME jobs, but the majority of jobs you can walk in with a good resume and land the job WITHOUT a journeymans card. Just because a person has a journeymans card does not make him/her a for sure skilled craftsman either. You cannot be sure the person actually did a 4 year program either, I know more than 1 person that got theirs with NO schooling through some kind of program at a job they had.

Bill

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That is exactly what is wrong. No regulations of what has to be offered and no testing on a national level to make sure the student (apprentice) has reached a required level for a Journeyman. And since we have no Journeymen we have no people with a Masters degree having the "know-how" allowing them to teach and no guidelines set by the Federal Government - or States . There used to be. Think of all the trade schools no longer in existence. Everybody on his own seems to be the thing to do. Yes, I have seen Journeymen that where at best mediocre and I have seen self educated people with good know how, but with a valid journeyman's certificate one can at least expect a basic level of knowledge. We just do not have the steady flow of trained craftsmen from Europe, just people who want to go into business of operating a seven/eleven store or a gas station. Nothing wrong with that but it is of no help to an industrialized nations requirement for skilled workers.
So what is the answer? We need asap a nationwide training system controlled by the Federal or at least State Government with set standards and penalties for people trying to circumvent (i.e. cheating) the testing procedure. If this sound like to much government control - so be it.
Would you like to have someone repairing you home heating system only to find out the "Repairman" did not have a clue of what he was doing but just kind of "worked his way into it"?
Before you could even say the words:"keep government out of my business" your house, and hopefully only your house, could be gone. Think about it!