Perceptions on Machine tools made in Asia vs in America

I've been thinking for a long time now that the perception of machines build in Asia, ( this excludes Japan for we all know about their quality ) are generally negative. However, this perception is more extreme in North America because sometimes their service level can't be matched with the big brands like Haas or Citizen. What I really want to know is what kind of experiences you've faced in the past that make you feel this way?

Also, A lot of the professionals here on this forum feel that there are not big of a difference in Machines from Taiwan and china, and I would like to understand the arguments as well.

** (please don't get into the political stand point for Taiwanese are a democratic free electing nation vs the China for their communist nation, which follows through a very difficult history that started after Japanese relinquish their control over Taiwan as a sovereign state and China repetitively using their powers to try and change that and blocking global health warnings and information into Taiwan eg SARS) **

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Popcorn does sound good about now.

I am hoping to hear real arguments about this.

JF machinery said:

I am hoping to hear real arguments about this.

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Arguments? I thought you were looking for input and discussion.

If the quality of what I buy meets my needs and to a sensible price I don't really care where something is made. As far as I know things are made by companies with people and not by countries or governments.

Gordon

Gordon B. Clarke said:

Arguments? I thought you were looking for input and discussion.

If the quality of what I buy meets my needs and to a sensible price I don't really care where something is made. As far as I know things are made by companies with people and not by countries or governments.

Gordon

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That would great to get inputs. I am actually a little confused at by a lot of posts that shows people are skeptical about using Those types of machine because of their perception. It's quite interesting to me because people are often commenting that nothing good comes from China and from Taiwan and such... Which leads to me wondering what's the main issue that people feel that nothing good comes from the Asia market.

Btw, I personally dislike Chinese machine as well, my dad bought 2 Horizontal CNC for under 100K and lets say need a lot of alteration and it still won't work as well as he expected. so that's 100K down the drain. Well, that was a personal experience.

The difference between Taiwan and China and towards America and Japan, how far off is it in terms of quality? Any thoughts? Anyone?

Looking for some new sales tactics are we?

They didnt teach you them when you here learning english?

We have harbor freight over here, one trip there and you will be swearing off Asian Scrap for life!

JF machinery said:

That would great to get inputs. I am actually a little confused at by a lot of posts that shows people are skeptical about using Those types of machine because of their perception. It's quite interesting to me because people are often commenting that nothing good comes from China and from Taiwan and such... Which leads to me wondering what's the main issue that people feel that nothing good comes from the Asia market.

Btw, I personally dislike Chinese machine as well, my dad bought 2 Horizontal CNC for under 100K and lets say need a lot of alteration and it still won't work as well as he expected. so that's 100K down the drain. Well, that was a personal experience.

The difference between Taiwan and China and towards America and Japan, how far off is it in terms of quality? Any thoughts? Anyone?

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You've just explained what the reason is for the different perception in quality. People still almost always buy from Asia because it is cheaper. Turn it around and think what you coulld get from Asia if you were willing to pay the same as it'd cost if you bought it made in North America or Europe.

What would it have cost your dad if he hadn't bought "Asian"?

A saying to remember:

If you're lucky you get what you pay for, you rarely get more.

Gordon

Heavey Metal said:

Looking for some new sales tactics are we?

They didnt teach you them when you here learning english?

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Any chance you'll let us know WHO you're writing to unless of course you're talking to yourself

While at it is that how "heavy" is spelt down your way?

Gordon B. Clarke said:

You've just explained what the reason is for the different perception in quality. People still almost always buy from Asia because it is cheaper. Turn it around and think what you coulld get from Asia if you were willing to pay the same as it'd cost if you bought it made in North America or Europe.

Gordon

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If the imported products were of the same price and only equal in quality why would I bother? I can drive to Mazak's production or Makino's maintenance facility in 15 minutes, sit down with their application engineers, get parts same day, etc. Who wants to exchange emails in broken English with someone in a time zone 1/2 day away.

If they can't offer comparable or superior quality at a lower price, then they are not worth considering.

The Japanese offered equal or better quality AND a better price, that is why they were able to enter the North American market and succeed.

The incumbent will always win if you can't beat him on price!

Some of the Chinnese machinery I have bought in the past were in fact cost related. But household goods I buy are not..

While Im sure there could be great products comming from China. I can honestly say I have not seen them. I have been in the position to buy quality rather than value. Sadly buying well known name brands is no longer a path to quality. Here in Phoenix Az it can be hard to avoid Chinnese products.
We shoped for several weeks before buying a new microwave.It and every other one at Lowes,Home Depot or Sears are made in China and poorly. We could not find one not made in China for under $1200.The one for $1200 was online with major shipping charges.. I have one I seriously regrete buying. And it was nearly $1000.FYI the products labled "Made in PRC" That folks is Peoples Republic of China.
Tooling availble to the hobbiest via Harbor Freight and the such is not worth the gas to make the trip to buy it. Buy a carbide anything from HF and cringe as it dies an early death
Want an exercise in frustration? Buy a vfd from china. That will answere any quality question you might have.
Shoes.... wolverine.... There is a brand that moved to China and quality died in the process.
So after several years I have earned a dislike of items from China.
Who is proud to say Made In China?
I am a firm beliver in voting with your pay check. I no longer shop at Sears, Kmart. I have been to wallymart 3 times in my life .Twice to return stuff bought the first trip.
And the recent GM move means to me there is a brand I will never buy again.

To end this rant,
Screw me once shame on you.
Screw me twice shame on me.

Im typing this on a tablet the kids bought me . Why you ask? The first ever time I have bought a Chinese motherboard it died after 90 days....

We have several Daewoo (Korea) VMC's and CNC lathes, some that we have had for about 10 years that have proven very reliable and accurate. They all have Fanuc drives and controls so it may not fit your criteria for non Japanese. We had some Alliant mills (Taiwan) in late 80s that were fine, no major problems. Mainland China machine tools on the other hand I think still have a way to go. Have you ever heard anything good about a Johnsford? Not sure where they are made.

Also, A lot of the professionals here on this forum ...

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So don't listen to Gordon. His most complex machine tool is maybe a spoon (Mom told him to stay away from forks and knifes).
He is an importer of Chinese calipers, so he obviously is biased.


Nick

In my experience, Taiwan makes a lot of mediocre and some excellent stuff, and the PRC almost always makes crap. I have bought some Chinese stuff because it was the crap I needed at the time at the right price. I hate to do it, but at the end of the month bills need to be paid, and if China crap is the only way I can get something done, I have to.

There are two separate issues here. Actually, make that 3:

1) Quality. If China can't supply quality, that's the end of the argument right there for any decent tradesperson who has the option.

2) Balance of trade, support your country etc. If I have the choice, I'd rather buy something made in Canada, my home country. If that option is not available, I'd prefer something from the States, or another country that we trade heavily with. At least, I want a country that isn't screwing everyone through anti-competitive subsidies, etc.

3) Political conscience. I'd much rather buy from Taiwan, with a democratically elected government, free expression, etc, than a country with dictatorial style rule that oppresses its people.

I have seen a quality improvement over the past 35 years of mainland China, as well ROC products. And if I look at cars made in the 60's from Japan, they were junk, but they very quickly improved quality of their design, by copying the best from 1st world country designs. Which they still do (that theft is another story).
My first lathe was a "Jet" engine model 10x24, made in 1976, that I bought new in 1978. I think I paid $1400 for it. I think it weights maybe 380 lbs. Made in ROC. It "worked", and as I learned many years later it was a "Pre-Assembled Kit"=PAK. The major problem I saw, was their engineers took a common carpenters measuring tape, and based their design on 1/8ths inch. The cross slide, compound, all had 1/8 screws, instead of a machinist 1/10". And it has the gear box where the half nut can't be disengaged while threading SAE pitches.
I have 2 small "home shop" drill presses, the infamous 4x6 metal bandsaw, (another PAK had since 78, many mods), I have an Ellis model 1600 bandsaw, that is fantastic quality, in comparison, (but it has design issues too). In 2004 I got a Grizzly (limited edition, as it was not in their catalog), it was $7500 for a 5600 lbs machine. 400mmX1000mm, with a 80mm headstock hole. And I just installed a taper attachment with a 450mm stroke. PAK cubed. And it still has 1/8inch based screws, which should have been .20, not .25 pitch. And it too has the don't disengage half nut while doing SAE threads. I think Grizz got a bunch of these supper cheap, as in retrospect, how can you sell any machine for less then $1.10/lb. What's the new steel price back in 2004. WTF was I thinking. That said, it's a heavy duty beast. It cuts stuff round. But I did buy the Bison 12" chuck both 3 and 6 Jaw with set tru. Beats the 0.028 runout of the 3 jaw it came with.
Now from mainland, I've gotten 3 chucks from Saturn manufacturing, that were very good quality (over a 20 year period, pure luck from Enco, and eBay). And were less then 1.6 thou runout at the chuck jaw, and not too bad out at 6", but can't recall.
The quality at horrible fright has improved over the last 30 years. But there was a management change at HF 5 or so years ago, and their prices have doubled on hand tools (I can buy them cheaper). It does appear that metallurgy has gotten better. And I've heard if your willing to pay for quality, you can export that from mainland China. But I've never looked. As for ROC, they stopped exporting low end machine tools as their real-estate on the island drove for higher technology products, like integrated circuit design, and quality computer manufacture.
My milling machines are old iron, a 30's erra Rockford horizontal miller (more museum piece B&S#9 spindle), and a Wells-Index (I'm guessing late 60s) vertical Bridgeport copy with R8 spindle.
TONS of tooling but mainly Enco India, Pakistan, Poland, Yugoslavia, and China.

It makes you a better machinist, but I don't do this for a living.

The only Chinese machines I have seen or owned were manual ones. I have in my possession one of those crap HF Central Machinery horizontal bandsaws and used to have an Enco mill (Bridgeport clone) I bought both those off a friend who had stored them in my shop, both machines looked near new. The saw is rarely used as I have a larger Kysor Johnson, the saw had the motor catch fire a few years back, the mill that also was rarely used was complete trash. I think parts fell off of it just from looking at it. At the time I had a lot manual mills of better quality so the Enco was basically used as a light duty drill press. The knee crank handle and quill feed handle broke off almost immediately, then a little while later the back gear lever broke off. The machine was a whole 3 years old when I got it. As for Taiwanese I have a 14 x 30 Jet lathe (Jet is now Chinese but wasn't in 1975) that I have had for over 15 years and at times used it 20+ hours a week, never a problem. Also have a Takisawa TC-1 CNC lathe (made in 1993) that I have had almost 10 years with little trouble.

wr4t said:

If the imported products were of the same price and only equal in quality why would I bother? I can drive to Mazak's production or Makino's maintenance facility in 15 minutes, sit down with their application engineers, get parts same day, etc. Who wants to exchange emails in broken English with someone in a time zone 1/2 day away.

If they can't offer comparable or superior quality at a lower price, then they are not worth considering.

The Japanese offered equal or better quality AND a better price, that is why they were able to enter the North American market and succeed.

The incumbent will always win if you can't beat him on price!

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Read again what I wrote. I didn't write "equal in quality"

Nick Mueller said:

So don't listen to Gordon. His most complex machine tool is maybe a spoon (Mom told him to stay away from forks and knifes).
He is an importer of Chinese calipers, so he obviously is biased.

Nick

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At least I had a Mom

Guess which one is Nick as a kid

UGLY BABIES - YouTube

He also has a pet cat - take your pick

Cats that look like HITLER!!! - YouTube

At least I had a Mom

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Was she paid to bear you?