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Way OT but vital: acitizenship test

Forrest Addy

Diamond
Joined
Dec 20, 2000
Location
Bremerton WA USA
Sorry Milacron. The whole title was once there but I somehow lost it in edit.

This is way off topic but the knowledge tested for is essential to good citizenship. It's apolitical in topic so I hope Milacron will allow it - but is the kind of thing he usually chops. .

Intercollegiate Studies Institute - Educating for Liberty

Keep your scores to yourselves. If you done good, congratulations. If miserable, maybe its time for a civics tune-up.
 
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You answered 25 out of 33 correctly — 75.76 %, how's that for a foreigner?

most I got wrong were what document did such and such quote come from, being a Canuk I haven't read them let alone had them drilled into my head since grade school

imo the economic Q's should be used to qualify whether one gets to vote or not. Last question doesn't have a completely correct answer though, just one that's more right than others.
 
I find this so called test not the least bit representative of what someone might, could, or should know:

not relevant in any form:

======================================================

Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, and Aquinas would concur that:

all moral and political truth is relative to one’s time and place
moral ideas are best explained as material accidents or byproducts of evolution
values originating in one’s conscience cannot be judged by others
Christianity is the only true religion and should rule the state
certain permanent moral and political truths are accessible to human reason

======================================================
 
I find this so called test not the least bit representative of what someone might, could, or should know:

not relevant in any form:

======================================================

Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, and Aquinas would concur that:

all moral and political truth is relative to one’s time and place
moral ideas are best explained as material accidents or byproducts of evolution
values originating in one’s conscience cannot be judged by others
Christianity is the only true religion and should rule the state
certain permanent moral and political truths are accessible to human reason

======================================================

A mixed message if ever I read one. Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Aquinas and situation ethics have absolutely nothing in common with Christianity. So, what are you really trying to say? :confused::nutter:
 
Those lines are multiple choice answers, from the test the OP linked to. Yes, it would be a "mixed message" if it were all of the above:D.

Edit: I do agree, that's not knowledge we should necessarily have, I've looked at philosophy a bit, so I knew it. I do think that philosophy should be a mandatory high school course. Of course it should be kept strictly non-religious, so a lot of Aquinas's rubbish would be out, but logic especially is a skill people seem to be lacking in.
 
Well, um....

The first time I took it about five hours ago I got 3 wrong. (The correct answers would have been my second choice answers.) I took it just now and got 100 and I work in higher education, though I am not a college professor. I guess I can learn something and retain it for a few hours.

IMO I would have done better the first time around except on some of the economic questions about my senior year in high school. I read a bunch of the summary stuff and they blame colleges for the poor performance of the public. I think their blame is misplaced. This stuff (including the stuff about Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, etc...) should all be learned in high school IMO. Though most people the age of 18 and up to 30 don't even bother to vote they should at least have a clue on how the country runs and why.

As far as learning about what all the old DWMs, aka philosophers, thought about how government, morality, etc... should work; I think that is also worth learning. As well as Renaissance, and Enlightenment thinkers. It is worth understanding because that is what the Founding Fathers_TM had studied and it influenced how they set up the laws of the country. It is no good getting your US History from the likes of twits like David Barton, Michelle Bachman and Sarah Palin. Actually David Barton isn't a twit but a liar. Unfortunately, paraphrasing Mark Twain, the classical philosophers are something everyone wants to have read but nobody wants to read.

The strangest result of this quiz is that elected officials did worse than the average Joe. The only people to blame for that is the people who elected them... the average Joe. Perhaps the more one knows about politics the more likely one will not seek public office?

-DU-
 
You re-took the exam five hours later and got a 100? Holy crap, that's amazing. It's almost as impressive as what I did - I looked up each answer on a separate computer before checking off the bubbles. You and me, we are the same.

Now, then. Many of the questions on this exam are generally pertinent, but many are also bullshit questions meant to fluff up those who happen to be history buffs or college types. Does it really matter that some phrase came out of Jefferson's letters versus some other paper of the day? Does it matter any longer to the average Joe that Lincoln and Douglas fought over whether or not slavery should be extended into the near territories? It's important that that information exist and be accessible, but it's very unimportant that the average person know it.

100, eh?
 
I find this so called test not the least bit representative of what someone might, could, or should know:

not relevant in any form:

======================================================

Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, and Aquinas would concur that:

all moral and political truth is relative to one’s time and place
moral ideas are best explained as material accidents or byproducts of evolution
values originating in one’s conscience cannot be judged by others
Christianity is the only true religion and should rule the state
certain permanent moral and political truths are accessible to human reason

======================================================

Some people shouldn't be allowed to vote.
 
And since that post, and the fact that it was quoting the multiple choices directly from the test was made abundantly clear just a few post up, I guess that would be you. So to whom are you going to entrust your vote, or will you just lose it altogether?
 
Sorry guys, but that thing is hardly apolitical. I guess I'm one of the most cynical bastards on the face of the earth when it comes to people with an unspoken agenda. "Liberty" is one of those trigger words, highjacked by the neo-cons and wingnuts, so I took the test and gave answers to the capitalism related question that I'd consider a "correct" answer if the test is authored by a bunch of wingers. Sure enough, got 'em all correct. Missed one about the Puritans and one other history related one, but those are all just fluff to disguise the real purpose of the test which is to poll for public agreement with the right's theory that all ills can be solved by unfettered free markets.

Sure enough, looked at the "about" section of the site after completing the test, and their board of directors is like a who's who of wingers who would have a collective likelihood of doing anything non-political somewhere between zero and none.

Since teachers seem to be a favorite target of the right, I'd put near zero credibility on the site's claim of poor performance by teachers. Much more likely for such a group to make that claim so the average doofus who takes the test and scores 70% can blow up his chest and proclaim the news that he's smarter than teachers. Personally, I hate the subjects of history, religion, sociology, psychology, and most other similar stuff with a passion, so my performance on the test is only testimony to how easy it is.

Further plowing around in their site and sub-sites paints a clearer picture of a winger site with very strong libertarian influence, which can only make me wonder if this is another one of those projects that the Koch Brothers fund but are too gutless to openly support.
 
You re-took the exam five hours later and got a 100? Holy crap, that's amazing. It's almost as impressive as what I did - I looked up each answer on a separate computer before checking off the bubbles. You and me, we are the same.

I guess I hit the submit button too quickly. My point was [going to be] that as far as getting perfect scores it is easy to "teach to the test." And how it is a problem with standardized multiple choice tests. Just learn by rote the knee-jerk responses for certain questions. Many of the "correct" answers to the the quiz are not what, as has already been mentioned, many of us would consider true but it is easy to figure out because the other choices are "more wrong" than the "correct" one.

Now, then. Many of the questions on this exam are generally pertinent, but many are also bullshit questions meant to fluff up those who happen to be history buffs or college types. Does it really matter that some phrase came out of Jefferson's letters versus some other paper of the day?

Actually it does matter. One of the current arguments in the political arena is whether this country is a "Christian Nation" or not and what was the actual intent and reasoning behind the First Amendment and the, so called, Establishment Clause in the First Amendment to the Bill of Rights. The buzz phrase "Wall of separation between Church and State" appears nowhere in the Constitution, yet the letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to Danbury CT Baptist Association is considered by the Supreme Court to express the intent and function of the clause.

From the letter:
Thomas Jefferson said:
"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State".

For some reason the wingnuts, Christian far right, and Dominionists wants there to be a "religious test" for public office and the laws enacted by the elected to adhere to "Christian principles". Even though they are relatively small in number to the rest of the population they have a disproportionate amount of influence on who gets elected and what laws will be passed. IMO it is important for voters to understand the motivations behind the propaganda that the far right is using to influence the voters. It is way more important than whether certain people are sexting each other.

Does it matter any longer to the average Joe that Lincoln and Douglas fought over whether or not slavery should be extended into the near territories? It's important that that information exist and be accessible, but it's very unimportant that the average person know it.

It is important because, in a different form, the "debate" is still continuing today. The current form is more about "states rights" vs federal. See Arizona's laws regarding aliens as one example... gay rights, abortion, right-to-work for others. These are issues that are being voted on today... so yes, IMO, it is important that the "average [voting] person know it."


See above.

It is not important that one knows all the right answers to a particular test. What is important is that citizens have a clue about how their country works and is supposed to work. That people, apparently, score so poorly highlights that problem. I wonder if similar tests have been done on other countries citizens regarding their political institutions.

-DU-
 
Actually it does matter. One of the current arguments in the political arena is whether this country is a "Christian Nation" or not and what was the actual intent and reasoning behind the First Amendment and the, so called, Establishment Clause in the First Amendment to the Bill of Rights. The buzz phrase "Wall of separation between Church and State" appears nowhere in the Constitution, yet the letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to Danbury CT Baptist Association is considered by the Supreme Court to express the intent and function of the clause.

Which is actually kind of amazing, considering that in 1797 the government (which, of course, included the founders at that point) went out of its way to officially make clear that the US was not a "Christian Nation," but rather one where all were welcome. To the point where a statement to that effect was unanimously ratified by both houses of Congress. You'd think that would suffice to make it clear to people what they thought...
 
The choice of questions struck me having a sort of free-market libertarian bent, and a glance at the ISI principles clearly demonstrates such agenda:

http://www.isi.org/(X(1)S(k5kjc23wx3wlj1r1w2fnu03n))/about/our_mission/principles_free_society.html

Nothing intrinsically wrong with the questions, but to put these specific questions together and claim them as a measure of civic literacy is just plain propagandizing.

fwiw, I only missed one, but I attribute that to a good memory for facts and trivia, not a measure of my civic qualifications.
 
Forrest, I am quite sincere in saying that I have great respect for your knowledge of machining matters, and equally great appreciation for your many contributions to machining related discussions on PM.
 
Personally, I'm more concerned with willful ignorance than just plain ignorance with respect to our ability to advance civilization, much less agree on what's likely true or begin to reassert manufacturing competitiveness.

Someone who doesn't know who the tenth president of the U.S. was can easily find it's Tyler within seconds of having a need to know. Someone who fervently believes the earth and humankind are about 6000 years will more likely consider paleontology, cosmology, biology, evolution, carbon dating, red shifting, cave art, geologic strata, archaeology, most science, etc. etc. to be vast conspiracies regardless of the weight of evidence. This is the kind of question I'd like to see every presidential candidate and 90+% of our citizens answer with some sense of understanding.
 
Since I've just got 84% on the test, and theres plenty of US citizens that could'nt manage that high......:reading:

Can I have a green card please ? :D


Boris


<<<packing Mr Slammy into a backpack and Shop cat into the kitty box ;)
 








 
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