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Ratio between supervisors (bosses) and workers.

juergenwt

Stainless
Joined
Feb 2, 2008
Location
Wheaton, IL.
An interesting article found in German paper about a study done on the ratio of supervisors and workers in different industrial countries.
Here the conclusion:
Deutschland: 26
Schweiz: 13,6
Großbritannien: 10,3
USA: 7,1

The study found that in Germany (Machine building industry) you had an average of 26 workers for each supervisor (boss).
In Switzerland it was 13.6 workers for every supervisor (boss).
In the UK it was 10.3 workers for every supervisor (boss).
In the US it was 7.1 workers for every supervisor (boss).

The study concludes that in a liberal economy like in the US there is a lack of mechanism to ensure more
adequately qualifications,
employee loyalty and confidence building.

In a coordinated economy like in Germany fewer supervisors are needed, because less control is needed.
A solid training system provides more qualified workers needing less supervision.

The study found: three aspects are needed for a company to get along with less supervision:
1. Quality vocational training.
2. A high proportion of internal promotion.
3. Employee representation.

The orig. article can be found here in German:
Hans-Bockler-Studie: Deutschland hat weniger Chefs pro Mitarbeiter - SPIEGEL ONLINE
 
Anyone have a link to the study? I couldn't find it off-hand.

I'd like to read it. It is too complicated of a topic, with too much nuance, for me to just take it at face value, but I expect there's some interesting information.

It's one of those topics people are more likely to accept, as it supports their personal opinions, too, which always makes me skeptical.
 
Pretty simple, in the USA the liberal school system and the way most people bring up their children raises people who are helpless chicks that can't fend for themselves and have no work ethic. They need more babysitters per capita. I was a lower level supervisor for many years before becoming self employed. I was prejudice as can be when hiring people for entry level jobs where hustle and attention to simple details were most important. From experience I mostly hired children raised by recent immigrants or young adults who has recently migrated to the country. The average white kid whose great grand parents were born here was more trouble than a half dozen guys from south of the border combined. I was shocked at how dumb some of those white boy high school graduates were. I think I was smarter than them in 5th grade. By the way I am white.
 
It's not clear to me whether these "statistics" apply to the machine tool industry or to manufacturing in general.

If machine tools, who in the US would respond to such a survey, Haas? And, without Haas, how meaningful would it be? And is DMG Mori a German company or a Japanese company? There's a lot left out here.

If it's manufacturing in general you would have to conclude that German shops of fewer than 26 workers (by definition) are basically nonexistent, whereas in the US much smaller shops account for the largest employer segment, or at least it did the last time I checked. To me a disparity in workers to supervisors of 26:1 versus 7:1 reveals that the EU has obstacles to enterpreneurship that don't exist here. To put it briefly, one is able to start here with less. The proposition that Americans are untrained and inherently need more supervision is the sort of thing Europeans have consoled themselves with for generations. I have one person supervising seven others because we're efficient and profitable enough not to need 26.
 
Not saying I disagree with the stats but I feel like as large as the US is there could be a lot more 3-7 man shops in the US than any of the other countries listed witch in turn could bring down the ratio.

Another problem I have seen in the US is a lot of shops love to give out the supervisor hat.

I know one shop less than 20 people had:
Plant manager
Day Shift supervisor
Mill Supervisor
Lathe Supervisor
Quality supervisor(who was the only quality person lol)
Night Shift supervisor
Office Supervisor(also only person in the office lol)

Most of those people are not supervisors in my definition and the owner is not in that last wearing one of those hats.
 
It's not clear to me whether these "statistics" apply to the machine tool industry or to manufacturing in general.

If machine tools, who in the US would respond to such a survey, Haas? And, without Haas, how meaningful would it be? And is DMG Mori a German company or a Japanese company? There's a lot left out here.

If it's manufacturing in general you would have to conclude that German shops of fewer than 26 workers (by definition) are basically nonexistent, whereas in the US much smaller shops account for the largest employer segment, or at least it did the last time I checked. To me a disparity in workers to supervisors of 26:1 versus 7:1 reveals that the EU has obstacles to enterpreneurship that don't exist here. To put it briefly, one is able to start here with less. The proposition that Americans are untrained and inherently need more supervision is the sort of thing Europeans have consoled themselves with for generations. I have one person supervising seven others because we're efficient and profitable enough not to need 26.

That was my question too. From what I read, Europe (especially central) and Japan are much more likely to be automated than the USA, though it's closing up. That's a big factor.

Another is cultural differences, I'm curious about. For us, those we call supervisor/lead, here... they also do production. Is that normal in other countries, too? Where do full time programmers lie?

There's just too many questions for such a broad, top level terminology, that I kind of want to see their methods and definitions to get a better context on the research. Maybe the USA is fucking up compared to Europe and we could learn something from their low-overhead management style. I'm always open to listen to new ideas.

Oh... and to some of the rest of y'all: If liberalism was at fault for creating the need for more supervision, then America, waaaaaay less liberal than Europe, should need FEWER managers. Let's put those thinking caps on.
 
In my opinion.....The value in "studies" like this are found more often in the details of how the study was done rather than in the published "result". Often there are just too many variables.....as some have already said...its pretty easy to look at those numbers and say "Germans are just that much better employees"....or....you could look at those numbers and say...."German companies are bloated with 26 people doing what it only takes 7 Americans to do"...I suspect neither conclusion is true.
 
The study was done by the university of Cambridge and Zürich with help from the Hans-Boeckler Foundation. I am trying to find a link.
Das belegt eine Studie von Wissenschaftlern der Universitäten Zürich und Cambridge, die von der Hans-Böckler-Stiftung unterstützt wurde.
 
It's not clear to me whether these "statistics" apply to the machine tool industry or to manufacturing in general.

If machine tools, who in the US would respond to such a survey, Haas? And, without Haas, how meaningful would it be? And is DMG Mori a German company or a Japanese company? There's a lot left out here.

If it's manufacturing in general you would have to conclude that German shops of fewer than 26 workers (by definition) are basically nonexistent, whereas in the US much smaller shops account for the largest employer segment, or at least it did the last time I checked. To me a disparity in workers to supervisors of 26:1 versus 7:1 reveals that the EU has obstacles to enterpreneurship that don't exist here. To put it briefly, one is able to start here with less. The proposition that Americans are untrained and inherently need more supervision is the sort of thing Europeans have consoled themselves with for generations. I have one person supervising seven others because we're efficient and profitable enough not to need 26.

I agree....How common is it in Europe to have a 1, 2 or 3 man shop? Its not uncommon here. Were those shops included in the survey? It might say somewhere....I just dont have a long enough break to go looking for it...
 
Pretty simple, in the USA the liberal school system and the way most people bring up their children raises people who are helpless chicks that can't fend for themselves and have no work ethic. They need more babysitters per capita. I was a lower level supervisor for many years before becoming self employed. I was prejudice as can be when hiring people for entry level jobs where hustle and attention to simple details were most important. From experience I mostly hired children raised by recent immigrants or young adults who has recently migrated to the country. The average white kid whose great grand parents were born here was more trouble than a half dozen guys from south of the border combined. I was shocked at how dumb some of those white boy high school graduates were. I think I was smarter than them in 5th grade. By the way I am white.

Shame on you for saying that... but true

Do it like the drill.. Do as you are told.. Do as I am showing you.. just does not seem accepted any more.
 
typically as employees gain more experience and work procedures or instructions are written and used more employees know what to do and how to do it, when, where, etc and supervision is so minimal you can go weeks even months without seeing a boss.
.
then their are places where senior people do stuff from memory, tools and supplies are unlabeled and not easily found so inexperienced people can have no chance of doing much of anything correctly without asking somebody whether a boss or a more experienced employee what to do, how to do it, when to do it, etc. then their is stuff called by not common terms. like tap holes with a green tap. normal question what is a green tap ??
.
iso guys comes around say procedures not approved so cannot use. then employee has to tell boss there are often many jobs with no work instruction procedures written down. it you start writing it down you need time to verify the procedure is usable thus done in writing thus ok to get approved. often the 1/2 written procedures are hidden to the point nothing is easy found for new employee to use. it goes around in circles. the iso cops and the continuous improvement people. when is procedure done ? do experienced people even bother to follow procedure or are they already trying to do things better 3 different ways in a month. experienced people who did try 3 better ways did he bother to keep records of what was tried and how well it worked. again is everything done from memory of only a few people. continuous improvement more like continuous struggle
 
Pretty simple, in the USA the liberal school system and the way most people bring up their children raises people who are helpless chicks that can't fend for themselves and have no work ethic. They need more babysitters per capita. I was a lower level supervisor for many years before becoming self employed. I was prejudice as can be when hiring people for entry level jobs where hustle and attention to simple details were most important. From experience I mostly hired children raised by recent immigrants or young adults who has recently migrated to the country. The average white kid whose great grand parents were born here was more trouble than a half dozen guys from south of the border combined. I was shocked at how dumb some of those white boy high school graduates were. I think I was smarter than them in 5th grade. By the way I am white.

Huh....I think you have done a bigger dis-service to yourself with that post than anyone you were attempting to rip.
I have my issues with todays youth and their "culture".....I wonder who is responsible for that? Possibly the generation of parents who are raising them? The younger guys I have come in contact with seem willing to follow the lead they are given. Are some of them lazy ass bums and idiots? absolutely. But I have come in contact with quite a few lazy ass bums and idiots with grey hair too. And even some who may come from (as you say) south of the border.
 
It is an interesting bit of info, I'd like to know more. 12-15 always seemed to me to be max.

as well as the good questions around "is this apples to apples".....what strikes me is what metric does it correlate with? ....Let alone can we get to causality.

American firms have traditionally been slightly more profitable than German....if that still holds true is the take away that there are just a lot of German workers negatively impacting profits because they need more supervision? Doesn't exactly seem intuitive put that way does it? However that you've noticed the difference by itself does not mean one is better than the other.....it needs that extra dimension to do that and a lot of analysis likely thereafter
 
Not saying I disagree with the stats but I feel like as large as the US is there could be a lot more 3-7 man shops in the US than any of the other countries listed witch in turn could bring down the ratio.

Another problem I have seen in the US is a lot of shops love to give out the supervisor hat.

I know one shop less than 20 people had:
Plant manager
Day Shift supervisor
Mill Supervisor
Lathe Supervisor
Quality supervisor(who was the only quality person lol)
Night Shift supervisor
Office Supervisor(also only person in the office lol)

Most of those people are not supervisors in my definition and the owner is not in that last wearing one of those hats.

Question is, did they all have the same last name?
 








 
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