A short rejoinder to Gordon's nonsens about healthcare - Page 3
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    I see you've never had wild boar. Even Danish domestic pig meat is not on the same planet ...
    You at least added "even" but you know that wasn't what you meant but I have had whole grilled pig (over a barbecue 24 hours) in several countries.

    I'm sure you know cuts of meat vary from country to country.

    Had this less than a week ago.

    "Flaeskesteg" / Danish Pork Roast with crackling and gravy - Recipe #56 - YouTube

    Danish roast pork with crackling - YouTube

    BTW look around next time you shop. Danish dairy produce is becoming very popular in China.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    I have had whole grilled pig (over a barbecue 24 hours) in several countries.
    Monarchist is right on this one. You can't even compare domestic pig to wild boar. I wouldn't trade for twelve fine horses and twelve hunting dogs, all decked out in gold and silver ...

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    No one has mentioned that the USA is responsible for 75 to 90% of medical device and drug innovation. All thanks to free markets and capitalism. Much of the stuff we invent is adopted by other countries and then they turn around and act like they've got us beat with how great their healthcare is. How about don't use our shit and then come talk to me about how great your healthcare is.

    I would almost certainly be dead if not for the incredible technology and drugs that were invented here. By companies trying to make profit. Not because the Government cared about me.

    And F off with all the BS marketing speak. SINGLE PAYER! MEDICARE FOR ALL! No, it's government healthcare. Interesting no one likes to call it that if it's such a great idea.

    It's so obvious that free markets and capitalism is the way to go. How pathetic is US postal ... it loses billions a year and has awful service. Fedex, in-fucking-incredible service and is a profitable, thriving and innovative company. Anything the gov controls sucks shit. When you are the only game in town with no competition, it's going to suck. DUH! oh gee I love waiting hours at the DMV to get my drivers license renewed. Imagine if they had any competition.

    Healthcare costs are high BECAUSE of the government fucking with free markets. Same with university costs. Same with anything the Gov screws with.

    Oh but but but, what about poor folks that can't afford healthcare, the GOV has to take care of them! No, that's what charity is for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    Monarchist is right on this one. You can't even compare domestic pig to wild boar. I wouldn't trade for twelve fine horses and twelve hunting dogs, all decked out in gold and silver ...
    Your soul mate did compare as I read it.

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    I was just thinking about the ole Hammer the other day. Glad you're back muh brother.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Welden View Post
    No one has mentioned that the USA is responsible for 75 to 90% of medical device and drug innovation. All thanks to free markets and capitalism. Much of the stuff we invent is adopted by other countries and then they turn around and act like they've got us beat with how great their healthcare is. How about don't use our shit and then come talk to me about how great your healthcare is.

    I would almost certainly be dead if not for the incredible technology and drugs that were invented here. By companies trying to make profit. Not because the Government cared about me.

    And F off with all the BS marketing speak. SINGLE PAYER! MEDICARE FOR ALL! No, it's government healthcare. Interesting no one likes to call it that if it's such a great idea.

    It's so obvious that free markets and capitalism is the way to go. How pathetic is US postal ... it loses billions a year and has awful service. Fedex, in-fucking-incredible service and is a profitable, thriving and innovative company. Anything the gov controls sucks shit. When you are the only game in town with no competition, it's going to suck. DUH! oh gee I love waiting hours at the DMV to get my drivers license renewed. Imagine if they had any competition.

    Healthcare costs are high BECAUSE of the government fucking with free markets. Same with university costs. Same with anything the Gov screws with.

    Oh but but but, what about poor folks that can't afford healthcare, the GOV has to take care of them! No, that's what charity is for.
    I agree with you more often than not but on this one I most vehemently disagree.

    Healthcare for the poor, and especially in the richest country in the world, shouldn't be what charity is for.

    BTW the USA buys, or tries to, foreign companies that do well re drugs and medicine.

    List of countries by research and development spending - Wikipedia

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    Quote Originally Posted by cellardoor7 View Post
    I was just thinking about the ole Hammer the other day. Glad you're back muh brother.
    Not really back. I read the forum sometimes and saw this thread with all the communist idiots trying to say how great Gov controlled things are. Gov controls healthcare, Gov decides what you get and when you get it. No thanks. The solutions to our problems isn't more Gov, it's less. Let free markets work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Welden View Post
    No one has mentioned that the USA is responsible for 75 to 90% of medical device and drug innovation. All thanks to free markets and capitalism. Much of the stuff we invent is adopted by other countries and then they turn around and act like they've got us beat with how great their healthcare is. How about don't use our shit and then come talk to me about how great your healthcare is.

    I would almost certainly be dead if not for the incredible technology and drugs that were invented here. By companies trying to make profit. Not because the Government cared about me.

    And F off with all the BS marketing speak. SINGLE PAYER! MEDICARE FOR ALL! No, it's government healthcare. Interesting no one likes to call it that if it's such a great idea.

    It's so obvious that free markets and capitalism is the way to go. How pathetic is US postal ... it loses billions a year and has awful service. Fedex, in-fucking-incredible service and is a profitable, thriving and innovative company. Anything the gov controls sucks shit. When you are the only game in town with no competition, it's going to suck. DUH! oh gee I love waiting hours at the DMV to get my drivers license renewed. Imagine if they had any competition.

    Healthcare costs are high BECAUSE of the government fucking with free markets. Same with university costs. Same with anything the Gov screws with.

    Oh but but but, what about poor folks that can't afford healthcare, the GOV has to take care of them! No, that's what charity is for.
    At every stage of the "health care cost crisis" the hand of government is visible if you look hard enough.

    Between 1982 and 1983 they created DRGs, diagnosis-related groups, in an attempt to control costs by making everything from a single aspirin to tests and procedures subject to individual charges. Not surprisingly, costs went up instead of down. Up until that we had costs only slightly higher than some countries, and lower than others. After 1983 U.S. costs for healthcare rapidly outpaced every other country on earth. Preceding every drastic rise were more government attempts to "help".

    This was just the start of serious government interference in health care, with more to come.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post

    Healthcare for the poor, and especially in the richest country in the world, shouldn't be what charity is for.
    That's exactly what charity is for. And our charity system worked just fine in the USA before all the Gov crap.

    BTW the USA buys, or tries to, foreign companies that do well re drugs and medicine.
    Right. I said the USA is responsible for 75 to 90% of medical innovation. I wonder how many of these foreign companies would even exist if they couldn't sell their products in the USA and actually make a profit? Let see here, start a company and let the Gov decide how much they'll pay for your product or let the free market decide? Gov: Sure we'll give you $10 for your product. Next year, GOV: well...ya see, how about we pay $2 and if you don't like that price, ummmm too bad?

    The USA doesn't want your communist Healthcare BS. But it's not communist, it's socialist! oh okay.. I want freedom, not the GOV controlling my life. The USA is all about freedom. Best country in the world.

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    So every single oecd country, that pays 2x less per person for 4x more results, is what ?

    Almost all oecd countries have lots of thriving medical private practices, quite profitable, listed on the stock market.
    So..
    every single oecd country does Much Better in terms of costs, results, profits at 1/10 the costs/avg. op.
    On the open non-subsidized market.

    It is a very simple situation.
    The US has allowed itself into paying HMOs and similar high profits, from the health of private citizens and-or US taxes.
    ALL net profits any US HMO or similar makes, are a loss from the general population and overall economy.



    Quote Originally Posted by John Welden View Post
    That's exactly what charity is for. And our charity system worked just fine in the USA before all the Gov crap.



    Right. I said the USA is responsible for 75 to 90% of medical innovation. I wonder how many of these foreign companies would even exist if they couldn't sell their products in the USA and actually make a profit? Let see here, start a company and let the Gov decide how much they'll pay for your product or let the free market decide? Gov: Sure we'll give you $10 for your product. Next year, GOV: well...ya see, how about we pay $2 and if you don't like that price, ummmm too bad?

    The USA doesn't want your communist Healthcare BS. But it's not communist, it's socialist! oh okay.. I want freedom, not the GOV controlling my life. The USA is all about freedom. Best country in the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Welden View Post
    No one has mentioned that the USA is responsible for 75 to 90% of medical device and drug innovation.
    Where does that number come from?

    All thanks to free markets and capitalism. Much of the stuff we invent is adopted by other countries and then they turn around and act like they've got us beat with how great their healthcare is. How about don't use our shit and then come talk to me about how great your healthcare is.

    I would almost certainly be dead if not for the incredible technology and drugs that were invented here. By companies trying to make profit. Not because the Government cared about me.
    Are you saying medical / pharmaceutical companies in other countries aren't trying to make a profit? (I guess I better sell my Roche stock!)

    It's so obvious that free markets and capitalism is the way to go. How pathetic is US postal ... it loses billions a year and has awful service. Fedex, in-fucking-incredible service and is a profitable, thriving and innovative company.
    What's the lowest rate FedEx charges to deliver a letter? I think it's at least 10x as much as the post office.

    Anything the gov controls sucks shit. ... Same with university costs. Same with anything the Gov screws with.
    I don't follow your argument. Some of our best universities are state (government) schools, and they generally have much lower tuition rates than private universities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    So every single oecd country, that pays 2x less per person for 4x more results, is what ?

    Almost all oecd countries have lots of thriving medical private practices, quite profitable, listed on the stock market.
    So..
    every single oecd country does Much Better in terms of costs, results, profits at 1/10 the costs/avg. op.
    On the open non-subsidized market.

    It is a very simple situation.
    The US has allowed itself into paying HMOs and similar high profits, from the health of private citizens and-or US taxes.
    ALL net profits any US HMO or similar makes, are a loss from the general population and overall economy.
    Like I said, let's see how great your communist healthcare does without USA free market medical innovation. Don't act like you've got shit all figured out while you ride our coattails.

    Our costs are screwed up because of the government screwing things up. A truly free market system would have the lowest costs.

    Funny how people from all over the world travel to the USA to get access to be latest and best medical technology. Technology your communist system won't provide. And don't try and tell me that isn't a real issue. I used to work for a medical device company that couldn't sell our product in many countries because the Gov wasn't willing to pay for it. They could have had better outcomes for their people, but no sorry, they stuck with inferior tech that was a little less expensive. That happens all the time. And like Scott pointed out, your supposed better outcomes are BS. The USA has by far the best healthcare in the world.

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  19. #53
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    So every single oecd country, that pays 2x less per person for 4x more results, is what ?

    Almost all oecd countries have lots of thriving medical private practices, quite profitable, listed on the stock market.
    So..
    every single oecd country does Much Better in terms of costs, results, profits at 1/10 the costs/avg. op.
    On the open non-subsidized market.

    It is a very simple situation.
    The US has allowed itself into paying HMOs and similar high profits, from the health of private citizens and-or US taxes.
    ALL net profits any US HMO or similar makes, are a loss from the general population and overall economy.



    Quote Originally Posted by John Welden View Post
    That's exactly what charity is for. And our charity system worked just fine in the USA before all the Gov crap.



    Right. I said the USA is responsible for 75 to 90% of medical innovation. I wonder how many of these foreign companies would even exist if they couldn't sell their products in the USA and actually make a profit? Let see here, start a company and let the Gov decide how much they'll pay for your product or let the free market decide? Gov: Sure we'll give you $10 for your product. Next year, GOV: well...ya see, how about we pay $2 and if you don't like that price, ummmm too bad?

    The USA doesn't want your communist Healthcare BS. But it's not communist, it's socialist! oh okay.. I want freedom, not the GOV controlling my life. The USA is all about freedom. Best country in the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    So every single oecd country, that pays 2x less per person for 4x more results, is what ?

    Almost all oecd countries have lots of thriving medical private practices, quite profitable, listed on the stock market.
    So..
    every single oecd country does Much Better in terms of costs, results, profits at 1/10 the costs/avg. op.
    On the open non-subsidized market.

    It is a very simple situation.
    The US has allowed itself into paying HMOs and similar high profits, from the health of private citizens and-or US taxes.
    ALL net profits any US HMO or similar makes, are a loss from the general population and overall economy.
    That's exactly the case, and why we refuse to let them base "single-payer" on the existing mess. The system has inflated costs built in at every level, mostly due to a lack of real competition fostered by government rules.

    What so many in single-payer countries seem to not understand is that prior to 1960s-1980s health costs were within reason for most people, hospitals allowed payments over time with little or no interest charges, and poor people still got cared for. Doctors made house calls and spent as much time as required. Thanks to intervention, we have fewer doctors and facilities per capita and the charges are staggering for at most 15-20 minutes of the doctor's time. Back then, a few nights in a hospital was not a prescription for financial ruin and quite a few people had no health insurance and didn't feel they needed it. We truly did have affordable health care.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
    Where does that number come from?



    Are you saying medical / pharmaceutical companies in other countries aren't trying to make a profit? (I guess I better sell my Roche stock!)



    What's the lowest rate FedEx charges to deliver a letter? I think it's at least 10x as much as the post office.



    I don't follow your argument. Some of our best universities are state (government) schools, and they generally have much lower tuition rates than private universities.
    You are welcome to Google medial innovation and research by country. No one disputes that the USA dominates.

    Pharmaceutical companies make most, if not all of their profit in the USA.

    Private companies can't deliver letters to mail boxes. The Gov says that's illegal.

    Before Fedex came along there was no such thing as a tracking number, or next day delivery or incredible customer service. Interesting that people happily hand over their money to FedEX instead of using the "less expensive" post office.

    I don't belive the Gov should be involved in education. I don't want the Gov to decide what should and shouldn't be taught. Just like they shouldn't be involved in picking one religion over another. Privatize all education and let them compete.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    That's exactly the case, and why we refuse to let them base "single-payer" on the existing mess. The system has inflated costs built in at every level, mostly due to a lack of real competition fostered by government rules.

    What so many in single-payer countries seem to not understand is that prior to 1960s-1980s health costs were within reason for most people, hospitals allowed payments over time with little or no interest charges, and poor people still got cared for. Doctors made house calls and spent as much time as required. Thanks to intervention, we have fewer doctors and facilities per capita and the charges are staggering for at most 15-20 minutes of the doctor's time. Back then, a few nights in a hospital was not a prescription for financial ruin and quite a few people had no health insurance and didn't feel they needed it. We truly did have affordable health care.
    Yep.

    And the Gov controls if you're allowed to build a hospital or not. Want to open a hospital and compete with the guy down the street, nope, gov says no. This recently happened in our area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Welden View Post
    You are welcome to Google medial innovation and research by country. No one disputes that the USA dominates.
    Sorry, I'm not going to waste time trying to confirm a number that you might have made up. If you can point me to a source, I'll gladly accept your point.

    Pharmaceutical companies make most, if not all of their profit in the USA.
    Your argument implied that U.S. medical companies were driven by profit motive, but international companies were not. Clearly they all are driven by profit motives, regardless of where they earn the profit.

    Private companies can't deliver letters to mail boxes. The Gov says that's illegal.
    Who cares if FedEx can't put the letter in your physical mailbox? they can still deliver a letter to you. Unfortunately, FedEx charges a lot more to deliver that letter than the USPS.

    Before FedEx came along there was no such thing as a tracking number, or next day delivery or incredible customer service. Interesting that people happily hand over their money to FedEx instead of using the "less expensive" post office.
    We (and I suspect most companies) hand over money to both FedEx and the USPS every week.

    Personally, I think FedEx customer service is pretty good, but I wouldn't call it incredible. We use them a lot, and they screw up a shipment occasionally, just like every shipping company. I sometimes get a bone-headed employee on the phone, just like every shipping company. FedEx, DHL, UPS, and the USPS are all pretty useful, but none are perfect.

    I don't believe the Gov should be involved in education. I don't want the Gov to decide what should and shouldn't be taught. Just like they shouldn't be involved in picking one religion over another. Privatize all education and let them compete.
    Are you advocating that the U.S. should get rid of all state universities? That would essentially destroy the greatest education system in the world.

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    LMFAO...look around,if you're not sure who the chump is...LOL

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    Who hacked Weldon's account?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
    Are you advocating that the U.S. should get rid of all state universities? That would essentially destroy the greatest education system in the world.
    They should be privatized. It's not the government's job to run schools.

    How about k-12? They sure are doing a great job! Oh wait, we just need to speed more money? We spend the most per student in the world.... welll uhhhh ummmm, we need to spend more! TAX THE RICH!


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