Teaching of Manual Machining Soon to be Forgotten

Hello All,

I have been lurking on these forums for many months, and I haven't posted much because, well I think it's more productive for me to read than type.

However, I heard some disturbing news recently about Southeast Community College in SE Nebraska (Milford Campus). They have had a very respectable machine tool technology course there for years, and supposedly they are not going to continue teaching manual machining, only CNC.

I fully understand that CNC is the way to go in terms of cutting cycle times and employee fatigue, as well as the overall bottom line, but for people just starting out in the Machinist world, do you guys think it is better to start on the old manual basics before throwing a computer and all their little quirks in the mix?

My training has been with my dad and the little shops I have worked in here and there. I wanted to go the Milford when I graduated high school, but I decided a 4-year school would benefit me more.

Just want to hear some opinions. I know there are folks on both sides of the fence on this issue. Is this a common occurrence all over the country, or is it just confined to the plains states where very few even know what a lathe is?

-TMCCOY

Machining is machining is machining, to not teach the manual machines is not that great a detractor from the curriculum in my mind. Any one taught poperly to machine with an nc machine, and not just to be an operator, will not have that difficult a time steping over to a manual to make parts. The set-ups and know how are differen't but that is a learning curve that isn't to steep. Just my $0.02.

I agree to a point. Teaching CNC only is better than NO machining at all. A few questions come to my mind. Are all the countries in the forefront of developing and building CNC machines doing it (the training) wrong? I am looking at countries like Sweden, Germany, Switzerland, Japan, Denmark, France, Spain and others. Most of these countries treasure the old traditional apprenticeship programs - modernized to fill today's requirements. Many of the new powers to be like China, India and Brazil are investing in training programs patterned on the European apprenticeship. And "YES" filing and manual machining is still part of these programs.
Even here in the US European car makers are setting up training programs bases on the old apprenticeship in an abbreviated form.
I remember in the 60s when our Schools, Colleges and and Universities discontinued language programs. The idea was that in the future English would be all that was needed. Well - that did not work so good and now the we are trying to make up lost ground.
Question to shop owners:" Would you prefer to hire a machinist or engineer with computer training and manual training over one with computer training only"?
Could it be that these schools changing to CNC training only are having difficulties finding teachers for manual machining? If that is the reason , than I think we as an industrial nation are having a big problem.
I think "tjmccoy" has started an interesting thread.

juergenwt said:

Question to shop owners:" Would you prefer to hire a machinist or engineer with computer training and manual training over one with computer training only"?
Could it be that these schools changing to CNC training only are having difficulties finding teachers for manual machining? If that is the reason , than I think we as an industrial nation are having a big problem.
I think "tjmccoy" has started an interesting thread.

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One of my customers graduated from M.I.T. He told me that in order to graduate, he had to spend 6 months in their machine shop, and 6 months in their sheet metal shop. He said that if you were not proficient in the skills of manual AND CNC machining and sheet metal work, you were not going to graduate. (I'm not sure if it is still the same).
His drawings are some of the best that I have ever seen in my 32 year career as a machinist. He is aware of what is reasonably achievable and well aware of what costs should be.

All of my formal schooling/training was with manual machines. I learned CNC machining and programming later, so that just seems natural to me.

I'm sure that any good CNC school would be able to teach about proper machining practices, But I would hope that they would also allow a student to actually feel that sharp drill peal off those chips. There is no substitute for that.

For the record, If I couldn't feel the joy of a new cutter plowing into a fine piece of A2 every once in a while, I'd quit the trade.

I bet the industry advisory boards for the school are just asking for CNC button pusher types. So thats what they give them. USA! Best shitty country on earth.

I am also a long time lurker, I think the very basics of manual maching should still be taught, for saftey reasons to both the apprentice and the CNC equipment.

Bah, most of these shops around here want a couple programmers on staff, and the rest are button pushing operators making $10/hr, working 80 hours a week. When they are 40 years old, someone might show them how to set up a machine, but the programming will probably be reserved for a lucky few or perhaps some engineering grads. We're becoming a caste society, and these programs are just giving shop owners what they want. Minimal skill button jockeys who are happy to work mega hours for a plot on the plantation.

I'm the manual machine guy in my shop. Started on CNC and went back a step to get some manual skills established. Most kids coming out of trade school these days don't know how to run this equipment, and they don't have many of the tools for the job. Franky, they don't have any interest in the old schools skills or machines. More work for me

I hate to agree with John....dang it, I really do. But he isn't too far off.
I have been a machinist, both manual and CNC, for 20 yrs and now have moved into machine trades education. The are advisory boards for these programs and every place will be a little different. Here is how we do it: I start ALL our noobs start out with basic shop and machine safety of course, then manual work. Everybody hand grinds a HSS tool blank that will be used on their manual lathe projects. Then we move to the bridgeport mills, then surface grinders, then our CNC mill and lathe including setup and G code programming. Many have done away with manual aspects of these programs. they say that tool grinding isnt a big deal, you just buy inserts.... untill you are at a job shop and have a custom rush job that you either cant get or dont have time to wait on a special tool. i also see that when a student struggles thru understanding the rake and relief angles on the tool they are grinding it helps them to understand what they are looking for as far as tool wear, etc. I see students break threaders, cutoff blades, end mills, etc on the manuals then they have a better understanding of how things work before they get to $150K worth of CNC equipment. This is a 2 year program and I really try to start with the basics and cover as many bases as possible.
Are there more CNC jobs in industry? Absolutely! But a student learns a great deal of their basic skill on the manual machines. Then when he is a noob at XYZ Co. They don't have to explain why the spindle must turn a specific direction.

You NEED manual experience before you do anything else. There's no way around that, you need to actual crank some handles to understand the feel of cuts.

This is sad news to be, being I'm a graduate of that exact school (some twenty years ago)

I'm afraid we manual guy's are a dying breed. When I attended that school they had just gotten a brand new OKUMA LB15. The only other CNC equipment in the facility was a Boss 5 Bridgeport and a Heidenhein controlled Bridgeport, they still taught rotary table work then. I believe manual skills are the very foundation of the trade, without using a manual machine an operator has no idea the cutting forces involved. I believe CNC will eventually take over everything and the job will become more like computer programming than anything. Soon they're will be nothing but a room full of cubicles where the programs are written and they will not even need button pushers or parts changers anymore. I think automation is moving at that speed.

That being said, I understand the school's perspective. They are only as good as their job placement rating and in order to do that they must concentrate their curriculum on what prospective employers are looking for. If you were (or are for that matter) a large high tech shop would you be looking for someone who is proficient with a rotary table or who can write and interpret code?

My opinion only....

Robbie

Manual machinist skills a are a must, I believe it helps build a better foundation for advancing to CNC. Southeast Central Community College Milford NE and Central Community College Hastings Ne. both had very good Manual Machinist programs.

There is a big difference between a machine operator, and a machinist. Virtually anyone can become a machine operator, but its a bit harder to become an effective machinist. How can you even program a CNC machine if you don't know anything about machining? And you learn about machining by making chips, all by yourself.

I grew up in a machine shop - I learned how to shift belts with a stick since my grandfather's shop was all lineshaft. It was a long time before CNC, and he designed and built custom machinery very successfully - I found out that some book binding machinery he designed and built before WWII is still in daily use by a lawbook publisher since they haven't found anything better. Mass production these days means CNC, but only a few years ago, it meant Acme-Gridley screw machines and Warner & Swasey chuckers. These creatures are still in use across the USA because they do the job, and if the job is cranking out the same part day after day, the versatility of CNC is kinda wasted (plus, Acme-Gridleys and Warner & Swaseys don't have a lot of problem with hard drive crashes, viruses, and hot working conditions)

IMHO, unless you know how to make a part, you aren't going to have a lot of luck designing a part.

As one who never worked in a CNC shop, I must fall back on some basic principles that have served me well. The market will demand what the market must have. If umptillion identical parts are needed, they will be produced in the most efficient manner. Most would agree that large numbers of product require CNC and modern methods. These methods require less general machine knowledge on the production floor than expert programming and set-up skills. Repair work, prototype development, and experimental work require a wide range of machine skills in addition to design and innovation skills. Even though it seems that there is less and less demand for the all-round machinist, there is still a steady requirement for this type of workman. These people will develop the skills they need, as well as gravitate to the areas that provide employment. Demand for a product or a service determines how much of that product or service is available, and at what price. No matter what the schools do or fail to do, there will always be someone who can pick up a thread on a manual machine. Regards, Clark

tjmccoy said:

Hello All,

I have been lurking on these forums for many months, and I haven't posted much because, well I think it's more productive for me to read than type.

However, I heard some disturbing news recently about Southeast Community College in SE Nebraska (Milford Campus). They have had a very respectable machine tool technology course there for years, and supposedly they are not going to continue teaching manual machining, only CNC.

I fully understand that CNC is the way to go in terms of cutting cycle times and employee fatigue, as well as the overall bottom line, but for people just starting out in the Machinist world, do you guys think it is better to start on the old manual basics before throwing a computer and all their little quirks in the mix?

My training has been with my dad and the little shops I have worked in here and there. I wanted to go the Milford when I graduated high school, but I decided a 4-year school would benefit me more.

Just want to hear some opinions. I know there are folks on both sides of the fence on this issue. Is this a common occurrence all over the country, or is it just confined to the plains states where very few even know what a lathe is?

-TMCCOY

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I ran a bridgeport some in highschool working at a shop. Didn't really learn much more than I liked making stuff.

I run our CNC mill for prototypes. Probably would not make any difference at this point. I enjoy designing and making stuff.

Its kinda like telling people they have to draw on the board for a year before they can learn solidworks.

Learn the technology. Master the technology.

If you want to be more than a button pusher then you have to keep learning.

Tim

PS- Yes, all engineers should work in a machine shop at some point.

I am currently just graduating from the Machine Tool Technology program at Minneapolis Community and Technical College. I spent four classes on manual (Mill 1 & 2, Engine Lathe 1 & 2) learning how it all works, as well as filing a square block to within .005 and manual surface grinding. I found it to be utterly invaluable to the understanding of how machining works, where one is likely to see deflection, and the limits of the machines being used. THEN we do CNC programming (by hand), and THEN we used SurfCAM. My instructor refuses to teach anyone CNC without going through the manual machines first, with the very rare exception for those who are already proficient at manual machines but need to expand their skillset.

I have heard complaints from shops about students not knowing the basics, and I've heard positive exclamations that I've used a Bridgeport. I really dread the day that the instructor retires, but I have a feeling that he won't unless the school finds someone else suitable in his eyes.

For production work it makes sense to teach the latest tech. However, It's been my experience that the schools are generally 5-10 years behind the latest and greatest. But, I have to agree with the move away from manual techniques for the masses because I think CNC skills will continue to be relevant even after production machining is not.

When I saw a jaw-bone recently 3D printed from titanium I was amazed at first. Then the light went off. It's only a matter of time before general machining will be sunsetting. It is the next logical step. Question is how soon the technology will become cost effective. Hopefully not in my lifetime.

There will alway be a need for the toolroom in any manufacturing environment. And Repair and Job shops will continue to be relevant for the forseeable future. So where will these guys be trained? Privately most likely.

Best Regards,
Bob

The issue is paralleled in engineering too. I'm a fairly recent ME grad and we had a class with a lab where we learned basic manual mill and lathe operations. For me, it was brutally simple but for most engineering students who would not know the difference between a drill press and a vertical mill, it was pretty useful. A year or two after I graduated, I heard that they cancelled the lab part of the class because of injury risk. I know of a couple incidents where someone got their hair caught up in a machine or tried grabbing an endmill as the spindle was slowing down (!). So now, we have engineers straight out of school (or even worse, grad school) who think they know everything and have never made a part before in their lives.

kapps said:

The issue is paralleled in engineering too. I'm a fairly recent ME grad and we had a class with a lab where we learned basic manual mill and lathe operations. For me, it was brutally simple but for most engineering students who would not know the difference between a drill press and a vertical mill, it was pretty useful. A year or two after I graduated, I heard that they cancelled the lab part of the class because of injury risk. I know of a couple incidents where someone got their hair caught up in a machine or tried grabbing an endmill as the spindle was slowing down (!). So now, we have engineers straight out of school (or even worse, grad school) who think they know everything and have never made a part before in their lives.

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Congrats on the achievement and thanks for sharing. Did you get into G-code much or just modeling? Just curious where the level of technology is that is being taught at graduate level today.

Best Regards,
Bob

I have a young guy working for me, about 26 years old. Sharp. He also teaches machine shop at a community college. For a young guy he gets it. Hard to explain that but you know what I mean. Tells me about the guys who work at a cnc shop, come in looking to learn cnc programming. Balk at the need to know manual because they 'will never do that'. One tried to drill a hole running the spindle in the reverse direction.
I was looking to hire a guy several years ago, one guy recommended a former co-worker of his, 'been there 20 years, can do it all'. Guy came in to interview, didn't really turn my light on so to speak. Called him back to make a test piece (manual machine). My guy is getting him a calculator so he can figure his speeds and feeds. Uh oh, I thought. He next proceeds to center his tool with the old scale trick. Then wondered why the tool wouldn't cut because he didn't know what to do from there. Went to cut thread, had the depth on the print, so he touched off, set zero on readout, gradually dialed in what the depth said, didn't understand why the gage wouldn't go........anyway he didn't get a job. Another guy so dependent on the readout that he scrapped two parts before asking me what was wrong with the machine. The readout had gotten bumped into radius mode from diameter. Didn't watch how much revolution he made with the dial. Same guy was threading, scrapped a couple of parts before asking what was wrong with the machine(again). I asked if he was hitting the same number, 'Yep, going back to Z zero on the readout every time', never looked at or had used the thread dial. All that to say, manual machining should be a required pre-requiset (at least spelling is not) to cnc machining.