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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Normally I agree with you more than I disagree but this time I most certainly don't. I don't even know where to start so I'll just say "Everything in your post".

    OK one thing. Your "I don't think I would screw with China.". Nothing good would be achieved by that.
    BTW South Korea doesn't have nuclear weapons and I doubt very much they'd take them if offered. Do you even know how far Seoul is from the border? The absolute last thing South Korea wants is a nuclear war.
    My position regarding NK is informed by our recent military experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan. The price we have paid to be the top-cop in the "war on terror" has been extremely high. How many of our young men have to die or suffer horrible injury before it can be said that we have done enough? I don't fancy allowing NK to become another military quagmire for us.

    Urging nuclear weapons on SK would dramatically increase instability and do great violence to the balance of power. Unstable as it may already be, it has held things together so far. I cannot see that anyone stands to benefit from a nuclear arms standoff between the two Koreas.

    Leaving nuclear missiles aside, I would not stand-off and allow SK to fall to the North should things deteriorate. I would feel obliged to support the South even if it means that we must put more troops and materiel on the line in SK. We have been dug-in there for quite a long time and I think our presence makes for a credible deterrent, though we might have to strengthen our forces somewhat. I am aware of the proximity of Seoul to the border, but I believe our forces, with reinforcements and the SK army, will likely prevail in the event of an invasion attempt by NK. This, provided tactical nukes do not come into play. Mind you, I really would not like to do this, but I would do it nonetheless if it becomes necessary.

    My point regarding China is simply that we should not allow them to dictate our foreign policy. At the same time, I am certainly not keen to provoke them - or anyone else. Still, I would never suggest we ask them deal with Kim, as Trump has done, because I'm not sure we would benefit from alternative arrangements they might seek to impose.

    I tend to agree with you as well. I hope this explanation makes sense to you.

    SquireTrading with a sane president...

    Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, Tahlequah OK

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSquier View Post
    My position regarding NK ...
    It's all crap, guys. Total pointless lying crap just like every fucking war the US has been in except for WW II and maybe the War of 1812 ...

    The very worst thing O'Bummer handed down to us was the "we'll just sweep this under the carpet" shit after Bush trashed the nation, Truth, and the middle class. That was the best chance I've seen in my lifetime to face up to the fact that our Leaders are worthless drum-banging evil scum. If you never face the facts then you'll never quit repeating the same old same old same old behavior.

    When you hear Axis of Evil, just think Weapons of Mass Destruction. Or Domino Theory. Or Remember the Maine. Or whatever lie they were telling that week, it's all interchangeable.

    We have always been at war with (insert name of this week's target here).

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSquier View Post
    My position regarding NK is informed by our recent military experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan. The price we have paid to be the top-cop in the "war on terror" has been extremely high. How many of our young men have to die or suffer horrible injury before it can be said that we have done enough? I don't fancy allowing NK to become another military quagmire for us.

    Urging nuclear weapons on SK would dramatically increase instability and do great violence to the balance of power. Unstable as it may already be, it has held things together so far. I cannot see that anyone stands to benefit from a nuclear arms standoff between the two Koreas.

    Leaving nuclear missiles aside, I would not stand-off and allow SK to fall to the North should things deteriorate. I would feel obliged to support the South even if it means that we must put more troops and materiel on the line in SK. We have been dug-in there for quite a long time and I think our presence makes for a credible deterrent, though we might have to strengthen our forces somewhat. I am aware of the proximity of Seoul to the border, but I believe our forces, with reinforcements and the SK army, will likely prevail in the event of an invasion attempt by NK. This, provided tactical nukes do not come into play. Mind you, I really would not like to do this, but I would do it nonetheless if it becomes necessary.

    My point regarding China is simply that we should not allow them to dictate our foreign policy. At the same time, I am certainly not keen to provoke them - or anyone else. Still, I would never suggest we ask them deal with Kim, as Trump has done, because I'm not sure we would benefit from alternative arrangements they might seek to impose.

    I tend to agree with you as well. I hope this explanation makes sense to you.

    SquireTrading with a sane president...

    Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, Tahlequah OK
    I wouldn't say that your explanation doesn't make sense but you have a very different take on it than I do. BTW Seoul is only 35 miles from the DMZ.

    The thought of NK invading SK is to me out of the question as that would mean war with the USA getting involved immediately. What China would do in that situation then your guess is as good as mine.

    What Kim Jong-un's game is I don't know but he's almost certainly right in that a "weak" NK would invite invasion. His problem, inherited from his father, is that if North Koreans discovered the truth and that they didn't live in paradise there would be hell to pay. The question is how long the population can be kept in ignorance. Why Trump is wasting time and money provoking NK to be even more unpredictable is in itself madness. He (Trump) should do as promised and reduce the involvement of US forces in foreign countries and areas. Things have never gone as planned so far.

    As far as "intelligence" reports from the US military go then I regard them, as I do with all other military intelligence reporting, as unreliable and self serving.

    1� Biggest Armies in the World - YouTube

    5 Strongest Militaries In The World! - YouTube

    Think what could be done with just 25% of that money.

    This is probably the only military parade I like
    Chinese Beautiful Pink Army March Past 中華人民共和國國慶 - YouTube

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    His problem, inherited from his father, is that if North Koreans discovered the truth and that they didn't live in paradise there would be hell to pay.
    Right. Just like when the US forces land at the Bay of Pigs, the oppressed Cubans will rise up and throw off that insane dictator in Havana !

    Oh wait. That didn't happen ? Because it was all American horseshit propaganda ? Just like everything you read in the western media is today about North Korea ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    Right. Just like when the US forces land at the Bay of Pigs, the oppressed Cubans will rise up and throw off that insane dictator in Havana !
    I don't see a comparison. BTW where in China are you located? No street address necessary, the province is close enough.

    Unless of course this is the China you live in.
    China, Maine - Wikipedia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    I don't see a comparison.
    Sigh.

    BTW where in China are you located?
    Zhejiang. Worst food in China. Why, you gonna come visit ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    I wouldn't say that your explanation doesn't make sense but you have a very different take on it than I do. BTW Seoul is only 35 miles from the DMZ.

    The thought of NK invading SK is to me out of the question as that would mean war with the USA getting involved immediately. What China would do in that situation then your guess is as good as mine.

    What Kim Jong-un's game is I don't know but he's almost certainly right in that a "weak" NK would invite invasion. His problem, inherited from his father, is that if North Koreans discovered the truth and that they didn't live in paradise there would be hell to pay. The question is how long the population can be kept in ignorance. Why Trump is wasting time and money provoking NK to be even more unpredictable is in itself madness. He (Trump) should do as promised and reduce the involvement of US forces in foreign countries and areas. Things have never gone as planned so far.

    As far as "intelligence" reports from the US military go then I regard them, as I do with all other military intelligence reporting, as unreliable and self serving.

    1� Biggest Armies in the World - YouTube

    5 Strongest Militaries In The World! - YouTube

    Think what could be done with just 25% of that money.

    This is probably the only military parade I like
    Chinese Beautiful Pink Army March Past 中華人民共和國國慶 - YouTube
    I think we more in agreement than you think. I'm not lusting for conflict. Far from it. I'm just saying that if NK or China press us too vigorously, we should not recoil in fear, but use our formidable strength to remind them who they are dealing with. Our foreign policy must not be formulated from a position of fear.

    By no means do I endorse Trump's provocative actions respecting NK. I would not like to see the United States provoke anyone. Ever.

    As far as military expenditures go, I think we already expend an utterly absurd amount on our military forces. We would curtail spending in a dramatic way if I had any say in the matter. I would very much like to free-up those dollars for healthcare, education, housing, etc.

    The videos you posted are informative and point-up one big problem facing the Chinese forces. While they do have an enormous land force, they are not capable of fielding that force - in full - anyplace other than China or destinations very close by. Their navy is getting better all the time (particularly at fighting near the coast), but our combined forces are much better at moving people and materiel than anyone else. Just look at our buildups in Iraq. Impressive stuff. Unfortunately, China can fight effectively in Korea as we have seen. Korea's tides and the nature of her coasts makes landing troops by sea a disaster. It's very tough to do. The US, on the other hand, is far more mobile and can field smaller, yet very potent, ground forces in a matter of hours almost anyplace on earth through a variety of means. No one bests the US in this ability. The point is, that bigger isn't necessarily better and I have complete confidence that we can deal with virtually any threat in Asia, Europe or the Near East without spending another dime. So, I don't think it necessary to kow-tow to China or Russia in our foreign policy.

    Moreover, our forces are, generally speaking, qualitatively superior. We have a deep corps of officers and non-coms with heavy combat experience. Frankly, I think we would kick NK'S ass if they decided to test the border. Mind you, I do not think this is a far-fetched idea at all. Don't forget the history involved here! That border is as hot as a two-dollar pistol and NK's ambitions definitely include an attack against the south. That this is NK's plan is borne out by the fact that they are obsessed with having a nuclear arsenal. They perceive, wrongly, that the US will back down in an invasion scenario if we fear nuclear attack by NK. That, in a nutshell, is why they want nukes. That and they want to bully others like Japan.

    To be clear, I would never act to provoke NK, China, Russia or anyone else. Still, I would not want the US to tailor it's foreign policy to avoid conflict at the expense of other policy goals. That is to say, IF China or NK seeks to bring a fight to us, then we should not hesitate to oblige them. I am confident in our military abilities.

    Korea is a strategically vital area. We must not lose our foothold there. It was won at a great price. We should keep uppermost in our minds the fact that we are dealing with a tin-horn dictator who MIGHT have China's support in a conflict. So many people issue dire proclamations about "war with China". I rather think China should be worried about having conflict wit the US! We can handle China if it becomes necessary to do so. Mind you, I would try every reasonable alternative to open hostilities, but there has to be a limit to the crapola we will take from anyone.

    In the end, I hope for a peaceful resolution to all problems in the area and if anyone starts a shooting war, I certainly hope it is not the US. We have been far too eager in the recent past to engage in military adventures. Here I return to my first post: My first inclination is to leave a Kim alone and withdraw our naval forces from the area.

    SquireTrading with a sane president...



    Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, Tahlequah OK

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSquier View Post
    I think we more in agreement than you think. I'm not lusting for conflict. Far from it. I'm just saying that if NK or China press us too vigorously, we should not recoil in fear, but use our formidable strength to remind them who they are dealing with. Our foreign policy must not be formulated from a position of fear.
    Kim's daddy should have let him listen to seventies pop music, it would have done him good...

    "You don't tug on Superman's cape
    You don't spit into the wind
    You don't pull the mask off that old Lone Ranger
    And you don't mess around with Jim" (Matis)

    China has been happy to tacitly support North Korea for the past fifty years, because they always viewed it as our problem... Every time one of the 'Great Leaders' did something to tweak us, we had to react, and China chortled.

    What Trump's posturing has done is turn that equation around and made it THEIR problem. They now realize, I think, that one of these days Kim is going to pull a tweak, we will react militarily, and they will find themselves with a hot war right on their border, and a flood of refugees crossing the river. None of which they want.

    So, now that it's their problem, they get to solve it. Maybe they'll just send a 'black ops' team in to cut that little prick down to size, and do some 're-education' of the top brass of the NK military.

    Dennis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Modelman View Post
    Kim's daddy should have let him listen to seventies pop music, it would have done him good...

    "You don't tug on Superman's cape
    You don't spit into the wind
    You don't pull the mask off that old Lone Ranger
    And you don't mess around with Jim" (Matis)

    China has been happy to tacitly support North Korea for the past fifty years, because they always viewed it as our problem... Every time one of the 'Great Leaders' did something to tweak us, we had to react, and China chortled.

    What Trump's posturing has done is turn that equation around and made it THEIR problem. They now realize, I think, that one of these days Kim is going to pull a tweak, we will react militarily, and they will find themselves with a hot war right on their border, and a flood of refugees crossing the river. None of which they want.

    So, now that it's their problem, they get to solve it. Maybe they'll just send a 'black ops' team in to cut that little prick down to size, and do some 're-education' of the top brass of the NK military.

    Dennis
    Wrong.
    All they care about is having a buffer between us bases and their border.
    We can't take it by land, we know this from when the SKS was the rice farmers choice.
    China has made it clear that NK is an ally.
    There are enough hardened artillery tubes aimed at Seoul to turn it into dust before the sirens start.
    The only issue the Chinese have is trade, and we need them more than they need us.
    And we need SK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    Zhejiang. Worst food in China. Why, you gonna come visit ?
    Expect to be in China again within the next year but you're too far north for my taste. I've found Shanghai to be OK but many areas much better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSquier View Post
    I think we more in agreement than you think. I'm not lusting for conflict. Far from it. I'm just saying that if NK or China press us too vigorously, we should not recoil in fear, but use our formidable strength to remind them who they are dealing with. Our foreign policy must not be formulated from a position of fear.

    By no means do I endorse Trump's provocative actions respecting NK. I would not like to see the United States provoke anyone. Ever.

    As far as military expenditures go, I think we already expend an utterly absurd amount on our military forces. We would curtail spending in a dramatic way if I had any say in the matter. I would very much like to free-up those dollars for healthcare, education, housing, etc.
    I don't see China as "pressing" the USA. Probably less than Russia anyway. When push comes to shove then the USA is probably the biggest sinner. No country likes to feel "pressed". Just look at the reaction I get from some in PM because they "feel" I'm bashing the USA.

    I've no answer or even a correct explanation but each time the USA "saves" or "helps" another country the clapping hands end up with fist shaking.

    It'd be a boring old word if we always agreed. The key is how to discuss disagreements and at least we (as in us two) are doing OK

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    Wrong.
    All they care about is having a buffer between us bases and their border.
    We can't take it by land, we know this from when the SKS was the rice farmers choice.
    China has made it clear that NK is an ally.
    There are enough hardened artillery tubes aimed at Seoul to turn it into dust before the sirens start.
    The only issue the Chinese have is trade, and we need them more than they need us.
    And we need SK.
    I think you underestimate the destructive capabilities of US forces arrayed against NK at the 38th parallel. Our combined ground, air and sea operations - if fighting to win rather than score political points - would be devastating. With naval support - to include missile frigates, carrier groups, etc..., along with Air Force (8,000 air service personnel alone, at present), Special Operations Command, and Marines, we are well situated to hand NK their ass.

    I agree, we need to maintain a good relationship with China too. But, we need not pay the weak little sister in this scenario.Trading with a sane president...

    Squire
    Quote Originally Posted by Modelman View Post
    Kim's daddy should have let him listen to seventies pop music, it would have done him good...

    "You don't tug on Superman's cape
    You don't spit into the wind
    You don't pull the mask off that old Lone Ranger
    And you don't mess around with Jim" (Matis)

    China has been happy to tacitly support North Korea for the past fifty years, because they always viewed it as our problem... Every time one of the 'Great Leaders' did something to tweak us, we had to react, and China chortled.

    What Trump's posturing has done is turn that equation around and made it THEIR problem. They now realize, I think, that one of these days Kim is going to pull a tweak, we will react militarily, and they will find themselves with a hot war right on their border, and a flood of refugees crossing the river. None of which they want.

    So, now that it's their problem, they get to solve it. Maybe they'll just send a 'black ops' team in to cut that little prick down to size, and do some 're-education' of the top brass of the NK military.

    Dennis

    Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, Tahlequah OK

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    I don't see China as "pressing" the USA. Probably less than Russia anyway. When push comes to shove then the USA is probably the biggest sinner. No country likes to feel "pressed". Just look at the reaction I get from some in PM because they "feel" I'm bashing the USA.

    I've no answer or even a correct explanation but each time the USA "saves" or "helps" another country the clapping hands end up with fist shaking.

    It'd be a boring old word if we always agreed. The key is how to discuss disagreements and at least we (as in us two) are doing OK
    On balance, I agree that the US is the biggest sinner of the lot. No question about that. Moreover, I agree that we are not being "pressed" overmuch by China. My remarks go to a hypothetical in which China does press too hard.

    It's always a pleasure to discuss matters with you. It's great that we can disagree, on occasion, without having to deal with senseless personal attacks. Trading with a sane president...

    SquireTrading with a sane president...

    Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, Tahlequah OK

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSquier View Post
    I think you underestimate the destructive capabilities of US forces arrayed against NK at the 38th parallel. Our combined ground, air and sea operations - if fighting to win rather than score political points - would be devastating. With naval support - to include missile frigates, carrier groups, etc..., along with Air Force (8,000 air service personnel alone, at present), Special Operations Command, and Marines, we are well situated to hand NK their ass.

    I agree, we need to maintain a good relationship with China too. But, we need not pay the weak little sister in this scenario.Trading with a sane president...

    Squire



    Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, Tahlequah OK
    I think you underestimate the ability of NK to damage SK.

    If by fighting to win you mean completely destroying the place you are right.
    The ability to take and pacify is a different story.

    Then there's China, they sure as hell will push back on having US bases on their border...and Russia would be pretty upset to have their Easterrn port under direct surveylance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    I think you underestimate the ability of NK to damage SK.

    If by fighting to win you mean completely destroying the place you are right.
    The ability to take and pacify is a different story.

    Then there's China, they sure as hell will push back on having US bases on their border...and Russia would be pretty upset to have their Easterrn port under direct surveylance.
    I should clarify one point: I'm not wishing or hoping for conflict with anyone - especially not with the PRC or NK.

    With this said, my point is simply this: We have the military power to support our political goals in the region. If it happens that we really need bases on China's doorstep, we can have them. Our forces are up to the task. I'm not saying it's a good idea, just sayin that we ought not to let our fears about what China might do, cause us to choose a course of action not in our best interest.

    SquireTrading with a sane president...

    Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, Tahlequah OK

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSquier View Post
    I should clarify one point: I'm not wishing or hoping for conflict with anyone - especially not with the PRC or NK.

    With this said, my point is simply this: We have the military power to support our political goals in the region. If it happens that we really need bases on China's doorstep, we can have them. Our forces are up to the task. I'm not saying it's a good idea, just sayin that we ought not to let our fears about what China might do, cause us to choose a course of action not in our best interest.

    SquireTrading with a sane president...

    Sent Using Tapatalk - Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, Tahlequah OK
    You miss the point.
    SK is one of the most important economies in the world.
    NK has the ability to destroy it, we can only defend it using mutual destruction.
    You can play Risk in your head all you want, that doesn't change the economic and military calculus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSquier View Post
    With this said, my point is simply this: We have the military power to support our political goals in the region. If it happens that we really need bases on China's doorstep, we can have them. Our forces are up to the task. I'm not saying it's a good idea, just sayin that we ought not to let our fears about what China might do, cause us to choose a course of action not in our best interest.
    Imagine the situation in reverse. How would the USA react if it was Chinese military sitting on their doorstep and claiming the purpose was to ensure peace?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Imagine the situation in reverse. How would the USA react if it was Chinese military sitting on their doorstep and claiming the purpose was to ensure peace?
    We had the Cuban missile crisis...we know how that went.
    That's why we don't have offensive weapons in Turkey

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    We had the Cuban missile crisis...we know how that went.
    That's why we don't have offensive weapons in Turkey
    That pretty much pre-dated effective missile submarines, didn't it? The point of closely situated missiles was to cut down on flight time and therefore reaction time if you were going for a first strike targeted on the other side's missile silos.

    That game has gone away with subs for 2 reasons - first, they could be right off the target's coasts already and second, if you don't know where they are, you've no hope of stopping them getting off a retaliation strike.

    Which is why anti-ballistic missile systems are such a 'threat' these days....

    What would be effective, not *too* provocative and interesting would be a US Navy based ABM system using rail guns or lasers that knocked down NK's missiles as soon as they crossed a defined line heading towards Japan, Guam or the like. Or, better still, all of the damned things.

    PDW

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSquier View Post
    If it happens that we really need bases on China's doorstep, we can have them.
    No you can't. Try it again and China turns off South Korea, instantly. They tried this just last month and guess what ? Between China and the US, Korea chose China.

    Our forces are up to the task.
    Right. Like they were in 1962 when you were fifteen minutes away from destroying the civilized world. If it weren't for JFK there would be no USA today.

    Do you really want to continues being stupid ? This crap about "our interests in the region" is beneath contempt. The US does not own the world. Get over it. Please.

    Make no mistake, this isn't about North Korea at all, and no one in Beijing thinks it is. It's ALL about the US wanting air force bases around the world for the purpose of extortion. Empire has not been a success since Egypt, 6000 years ago but our little nitwits back east think they have solved those problems. Just like they did with banking ... we are led by brainless, ignorant, greedy fools with big guns. Great.


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