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Why "can't" we make stuff in the US?

metalmaster10

Stainless
Joined
Apr 18, 2012
Location
Indiana, USA
We have another thread about what we have from across the pond that works. I have many items that function within reason. Sadly I also have several new USA built tools that have not been up to expected standards. Including a set of Starrett dial calipers. I have a 20 year old 6" B&S that was a graduation gift from my dad and these are like new, function flawlessly, etc. (as would be expected)
Last year I bought a new set of Mitutoyo (made in Brazil) and Starrett (USA) to see how they each stacked up to my old B&S.
I like the Mitutoyo better. I have used their digital tools for decades...

Anyhow, The talk earlier today about Lakeside carbide returned me to my soapbox. There is a theory that we can't be cost effective here in the US, so production is moved overseas.

Last week I ordered a set of Stanley screwdrivers from Amazon with some other stuff. These were only $7!!! They show up with a big "MADE IN THE USA" stamp!

Now, these don't look to be the best I have ever held. But if they can build them here for that price why "can't" we build good quality at a fair price?

My hat is off to all of you out there trying to make stuff here in the states and keep our system going.
THANK YOU ! :cheers:
We all know you won't get help from the top...

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We make flutes - the musical kind. Welcome to Brannen Brothers Flutemakers, Inc.
Raw materials, finished goods, taxes, insurance, training, heat and AC...It's a bear! Really hard to train people, and reward them for their accomplishments. But you have to do it. We have a lot of competition from overseas, as well as domestic. We'll be seeing the holiday junk instruments in the chain stores in the coming weeks. Ours are far above them, but you hate to see people suckered into these instruments that can't be repaired. Kids can't play them, and they blame themselves. They quit - nuf said.

Payson.


My hat is off to all of you out there trying to make stuff here in the states and keep our system going.
THANK YOU ! :cheers:
We all know you won't get help from the top...

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"Fair price".....

What's that?

Same as made-in-china? Same as made in Brazil?

Problem is that "price" has been distorted so much by the run to whatever the current low-cost production place is, nobody KNOWS what a fair price is. But most folks are pretty sure that price is low, about what it would cost at Walmart, maybe........

This thread is misplaced..... should be in the "war zone" (Manufacturing in America and Europe)
 
Here is a pissy thread about US goods. I just took a enders industry drift back to fleet farm for the lifetime replacement as the end was tweeked. Well they no longer handle them. They now have some china brand. Buy American, buy American, but only if the dealer and retailer support is there.

Buy a 12 dollar US punch from fleet they don't support. Or buy a cheap'o 3 dollar china punch that when broke you toss out and dont think about.
Be sure to consider what/when the next US made product will be dropped from fleet farm as well.
Small potatoes yes. But all them 12 dollars add up.

My son was along and we had a good conversation on the way home about the value curve and its descent.
 
"Fair price".....

What's that?

Same as made-in-china? Same as made in Brazil?

Problem is that "price" has been distorted so much by the run to whatever the current low-cost production place is, nobody KNOWS what a fair price is. But most folks are pretty sure that price is low, about what it would cost at Walmart, maybe........

This thread is misplaced..... should be in the "war zone" (Manufacturing in America and Europe)

You're right... We look at price, even if we don't want to.
I don't know where the price break is "reasonable" YMMV

The problem I see now is good name tools making crap to sell it at Lowes.... I don't buy DeWalt anymore either...

Lakeside carbide is my example for today. Great simple website, price in line with other quality tools, and from what I hear great service and quality.
We need more of that!

Yes Flute, I hear your pain. I hear all the time that employers can't get employees to show up on time and pass a drug test. How sad!

I really don't want to start a war zone, but it would be great to hear about companies doing honest work for an honest buck. I don't even think everything needs to be price competitive to be worthwhile. I see all the time things that are FAR higher than another item due to an artistic element, or something that makes it special.
 
We moved into production in house on our parts that we use , and are now working on distribution out to other shops . It can be done here , it does take effort and allot of devotion , and you have to be money savy . Jess
 

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I think you are spot on Parkerbender.
I can think of numerous examples here in germany. And the whole globalization problem is not as bad here as it is in the US. (Which is why we weathered the crisis reasonably well and don't have a Detroit either. We have bad places, no doubt, but not this bad.)

You can buy a German made home appliance. And they are not that terribly expensive.
Even the German grocery giant Aldi North Company sells some on occasion, i think.
So it is possible to get the prices.

On the other hand, i bought two Knipex industrial grade pliers from my favorite local supply co. only to find that the local big box store chain wants twice the money. They are going out of buisiness right know. Sad for the employees, but well deserved on an economic level. Their prices on some goods were simple ripoff.

I am again and again amazed how cheap German made stuff can be .
I had our welding torch sent to the factory for a refurbish, the valves were almost frozen due to wear and age. Paid 30 bucks and got a swap unit, took 10 minutes.


Some things can be crazy, lathe spare parts for one. But at least you can get them for a 40-50 year old machine.
 
Sometimes I wonder if the problem is less about what it cost to produce a part.....and more about how much meat is left on the bone for the guys that do not contribute much. What I mean is if you produce a quality product in the U.S. you have to mark it up so much more. The usual suspects need to take their cut for doing little or nothing. Of course their are taxes, insurance, sales, distribution, marketing, the bank, investors.....all of these entities seem to make alot more $ than the people who actually make a product. I honestly do not know how much different it would be for a foreign made product vs. U.S. made, maybe the foriegn producers are dealing with the same sharks in their pond (people who make alot of $ for talking)
 
I have heard political types complain about how many third world countries undercut cut us because of no pollution laws and no retirement for workers. China builds something like one coal fired power plant every week, small plants, with no more pollution control then a smoke stack. I suppose the ashes are just dumped in the drinking water lakes and rivers. Meanwhile they want to charge USA makers for carbon emmisons.
Bill D.
 
Thats exactly why when I was approached by a distributer I said no. Why should I sell my product to him at just above cost when I can sell it direct to the customer at A) a more reasonable cost to the customer B) a higher profit margin for me.

Using your first product as an example why not just sell it direct for 350 you get a higher profit margin per unit and since the price is almost half of what the distributer is asking I bet the unit sales volume would be much more than double.

Is it possible the distributor has insurance costs to cover? What would happen if a fuel rail leaked onto a hot header, or a control arm snaps halfway down the track?
 
Ill be able to compete with china prices on some motorcycle products im about to make. Did'nt know i could be commpetitive until i got a material quote.. Im surprised. Was my final decision to buy my little cnc mill. Im going to sell them for the same price that a china manufactuer sells them for.:cheers:
 
I think Made in USA is still possible for small quantity/ high quality goods where the order is for less than a container full, 1 bad part can cause tons of $$ problems, or the manufacturer don't want to deal with the BS of manufacturing over seas. One of our biggest customers is big on Made in USA products and won't sell Chinese stuff. Some of the parts we make for them end up in one of the big 3's "performance" engines. 1 batch of bad parts could equal thousands in warranty claims/ product problems reversing any savings they would have gotten from Chinese manufacturing.

We occasionally send parts to Taiwan / Indonesia which makes sense, they are 1 off or small quantity orders that are a little specialized. Now when we send the parts to Germany I wonder why they aren't made there, all it is is a bar with milled splines on each end and tolerences of +/- .002" or so. Is the cost for manufacturing that much higher in Germany to make the stupid expensive shipping worth it?

We also "add value" to some forged parts, they come to use partially done and we finish them to the customer's specifications. We have both made in India and made in USA forgings available for our customers. I would say over 75% of those parts we sell are the made in India forgings. They work and are "decent" but the made in USA parts are noticeably better from a naked eye/ machining perspective. Why do we sell so many of the Indian forgings? Price and they "work" for most of our customers. Customers don't want to pay extra for the made in USA quality unless they think they "need" it. I think the made in USA parts are about 1/3 more.

Occasionally we send parts to Europe
 
Thats exactly why when I was approached by a distributer I said no. Why should I sell my product to him at just above cost when I can sell it direct to the customer at A) a more reasonable cost to the customer B) a higher profit margin for me.

That is all well and good. Where does a prospective buyer learn about your products? A good distributor should be “working” for his money. Getting the word out on your behalf so to speak. Otherwise you bear the burden of advertising and selling as well as the manufacturing.

Just saying....
 
I've been on the other side of this table for a number of years, designing consumer electronics and medical devices that we had produced by contract manufacturers (CMs). I've used CM's with manufacturing facilities in the US, Mexico, Taiwan, and China. In many cases, we found that for new product development and for small or medium production volumes, the economies of using offshore suppliers are an illusion. I had engineers camped out in China for months overseeing the production operation of a small outsourced manufacturer (an arrangement we inherited from an acquired company), because their QA was so poor. We moved the production to another company with US facilities. On the other hand, we used a large CM in Taiwan who did brilliant work- great design support, excellent manufacturing and QA, and very fast turn around. We paid for the quality.

One of the challenges of sourcing manufacturing in the US is that our commercial infrastructure has withered. In China, the supply chain for parts, tool and die work, electronics assembly, etc. is incredibly deep and fast. In the US, these capabilities have become thin. For example, the lead time for mold making for one of our CM's US operation was 6 months. We need to reverse this trend and build the supply chain and skill sets so that building in the US is the fastest path to high quality. And we need to invest in the equipment and skills that let us be a low cost manufacturer, while paying our people very well. The folks who are on this forum are a big part of the solution to this- we need to grow this community.

There is some sign that big companies are starting to see this opportunity. General Electric reopened it's white goods (home appliance) manufacturing operation in the US a year or two ago, in order to get faster time to market by co-locating product design with manufacturing.

The only thing that will restore the US as a the first choice for manufacturing is being the best at it, in every domain; cost, quality, and response time. Consumers and corporate buyers will go where they can get the best value- we need to be that choice.
 
I really don't think you guys are in competition with the "holiday junk." You're not even in competition with my kid's $800 Yamaha (that he lost interest in).


We make flutes - the musical kind. Welcome to Brannen Brothers Flutemakers, Inc.
Raw materials, finished goods, taxes, insurance, training, heat and AC...It's a bear! Really hard to train people, and reward them for their accomplishments. But you have to do it. We have a lot of competition from overseas, as well as domestic. We'll be seeing the holiday junk instruments in the chain stores in the coming weeks. Ours are far above them, but you hate to see people suckered into these instruments that can't be repaired. Kids can't play them, and they blame themselves. They quit - nuf said.

Payson.


My hat is off to all of you out there trying to make stuff here in the states and keep our system going.
THANK YOU ! :cheers:
We all know you won't get help from the top...

View attachment 91951

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I bought some Monster end mills about 18 months ago. They say on the label they are made in the USA. I later learned from someone who challenged their manufacturing that, yes they are made in the USA, but they are made with Chinese carbide. I bought 3 end mills. They were 3/8 diameter 1 3/8 LOC and all I can say is they are the biggest piece of junk I have ever used.

I have some YG end mills that I run at 5,000 RPM and they just haul ass. These Monster end mills chattered really bad at anything over 1,000 RPM. I stuck the Monster end mills in a drawer, never to be used again.

Ill make you a deal if you want them, you pay the shipping and you can have them. I haven't thrown them in the trash because I spent $105.00 on them and I just can't bring myself to throw that much money in the trash.
 
Because distributors are too greedy to sell our products for a reasonable price. ...
So, that's my opinion... retailers who do jack shit but run a website thinking that they need to make more profit than the manufacturer, that's the problem with the US...

45% of my business is export, so we are actually brining money in.
Yes, I have had many requests from US dealers who then opt not to carry my products because I will not give then 100%+ markup.
Let's see: We buy the materials, pay the labor and overhead and taxes, and taxes, permits, licenses, etc.etc, then there is a guy who says, " I want to make a multiple of your profit for putting a label on a box and mailing it." (The feelings about that are not for a family-friendly environment.)
Well, aren't they special.
I let my retail customers know that any dealers on my dealer list are NOT greedy. Honest work for honest pay.
 
I sell my products direct to the customer I can beat china and pakistan. If you cut out the middle man and his giant markup I am competitive with any one around. I get calls every week from retailers who want to know what my wholesale program is, I tell them it is a simple plan one price for everyone. They ask me how they are supposed to make a profit if I dont give them special pricing. I sell less but I get payed right away not in 90 days and the customers are my customers not some retailers customers. I hope US manufacturers get smart and dump the retailers and sell direct.
 








 
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