Volkswagen cheated on emission tests.....Stocks plummet. - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    Bet you can't wait for clean coal?

    More seriously, this thread may give a hint to how large the group is (you and Oldwrench so far) that find nothing wrong in the VW actions, as long as performance and fuel economy aren't messed up in the fix.

    Most folks don't mind pissing in the swimming pool. It's when they find everyone else is doing it, too, that they start having second thoughts.
    There is a line between having clean air and water, which everyone is for, and being an eco-nazi that demands even tighter and tighter restrictions from already exceedingly clean vehicles. We don't have massive smog problems or polluted water in most of the country anymore, and in the few places that do they are not actually doing anything to fix the problem. In all reality, the government is usually right in the middle of making things worse. Remember that orange river the EPA caused just a few weeks ago? They knew that might happen, and went in anyways. And the busses that drive around here empty 24/7 belching out big clouds of untreated diesel smoke do so with the government blessing and support because 'mass transit is good for the environment.' I want a clean car, but I want an affordable car that works first. Just like not being able to buy a proper vented gas can anymore so they swell up and pop the cap on a hot day, the EPA is operating without common sense, and they are beyond the point of being beneficial to most of the people in this country. But I'm sure you have absolutely no problem with them showing up at your shop with their assault rifles and armored personal carriers and demanding to see your entire operation. Because they do that now.

  2. #22
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    Stock price is way down, time to buy! They will be back, a bit more clever next time I hope.

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  4. #23
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    VW, you can buy better, but you'll never pay more...

    VW built some cheap, tough, long lasting basic cars back in the 80's and early
    '90's. With the Beetle years before that. Then in the mid 1990's prices started to increase, cars got heavier, brakes went from lasting 100K miles to 40K, wheel bearings from 150K to 30K, etc.
    By the late 1990's they increased their prices like they were Volvo or Audi's with
    greatly increased maintenance costs due to lower quality short lived wear parts.
    Design also got more complicated, some of it required by EPA.
    Who in their right mind would waste money on a VW now-a-days?
    Go straight for Volvo or Audi and feel like you got something for your money.
    Or spend it on a Toyo or Honda, pay less, get more.

  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkmc View Post
    Who in their right mind would waste money on a VW now-a-days?
    Go straight for Volvo or Audi and feel like you got something for your money.
    Or spend it on a Toyo or Honda, pay less, get more.
    Meahh.. have rented almost exclusively Diesels in Europe lo these many years, VW models - many not available in the USA - included. Audi, BTW, is just another VW with a less garish badge, and USUALLY AWD as a sweetener.

    Actually prefer the French and Italian Diesels overall. No idea as to longevity, given how NEW most rentals are. A great fit for local conditions, but probable disaster for US ones.

    Also hope to never be QUITE so desperate for wheels as to harbour another Honda or Toyota product. Nor BMW. On ANY continent. Paid those dues arredy, thanks.



    Bill

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    Environmental protection is one of many very good examples of why governments are required.

    Pollution has to be controlled, people refuse to control it on their own so have to be forced to by regulations.
    The irony is those who are the loudest critics of government overreach are exactly those who are most unlikely to act independently.


    Bill- whats wrong with Toyota and Honda
    Best cars I have ever owned are by these folks.
    ONLY new car I ever bought is a Honda- a perfect car in regards to reliability, drive-ability, economy.
    Whats not to like?

  7. #26
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    The 50-state light-duty vehicle limit for emissions of nitrogen oxides is 0.07 grams per mile. In Western Europe, the limit is 0.29.

    this a quick google and from here: Diesel Cars in Europe vs. America - Why Diesel Vehicles Are Expensive in US

    I wonder how this comparison/differential between us and those non-green Europeans will affect this story

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  9. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    Bill- whats wrong with Toyota and Honda
    Best cars I have ever owned are by these folks.
    ONLY new car I ever bought is a Honda- a perfect car in regards to reliability, drive-ability, economy.
    Whats not to like?
    Most of my life I've had jobs that required a great deal of travel - and rental-car use. I've usually taken advantage of that to make 'free' comparisons. I've also kept an average of four vehicles of my own in the US for over 40 years, one more in Hong Kong the last 25 years (Honda's "Acura" for the first half, a Honda Oddsissy now).

    And I do near-as-dammit ALL work on them myself except bodywork. Which I ordinarily don't need for the life of a car anyway.

    That part goes back to the early 60's even when I had but one or two cars and DID do my own bodywork also.

    So...

    It isn't so much what is 'wrong' with a Honda or Toyota as that most folks who like them have gone long years with very little of anything BETTER to compare them with...

    ...but a good deal more that were WORSE to compare them with.

    My experience has been the reverse, so I like 'interesting' vehicles that excel at many things rather than 'appliances'.

    Drivability, I still rate the Alfa 75 "Milano" right up with Audi TT coupe as my favourite over-the-road cars for 2-lane blacktop.

    The Pontiac 6000 LE was essentially as fast, far more comfortable, and needed but ten-percent of the maintenance of either of my BMW 4-doors for mixed 2-lane and expressway.

    The Buick Park Avenue, Chrysler Imperial, or Lincoln Town Car best for expressway-only.

    My current compromise - and a rather beloved one - is an 'Old Man's car'. Jaguar XJ8-L of the all-aluminium 'X350' vintage.

    As I get older and stiffer, I am keeping a watching brief on the prices of used Bentley Arnage mounts. "Red Label" of course.

    When you shift from buying new to buying used, still do yer own work?

    The XJ8-L was 67 grand, new, 2005. Cost me less than 12K as a ten-year-old even with new wheels, front hubs, and tires factored-in (base was $10.6).

    You've been in it. Hardly an old clunker was it?

    A decent used Bentley Arnage I'd expect to go 20-40K for, another 5K-10K in first-year fix-up.

    Suits me better than a new Chrysler/Ford/GMC, German, Japanese, or Korean mount.

    Honda? Toyota? Might as well be Hostess Twinkys or LG microwave ovens.


    My Kid Sis would agree with you, though.

    Already had her beloved Honda CRX when her Dodge Neon began causing her enough grief she went to the dealer and made a point of being quite a distance away from the desk in a crowded showroom.

    When the Service Munchkin asked how they could help her, she shouted across the room:

    "Put a Honda engine into my piece of s**t Dodge Neon, and we'll be JUST FINE!"

    Then again... *I* wudda never had a Dodge Neon to begin with...



    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamscal View Post
    The 50-state light-duty vehicle limit for emissions of nitrogen oxides is 0.07 grams per mile. In Western Europe, the limit is 0.29.

    this a quick google and from here: Diesel Cars in Europe vs. America - Why Diesel Vehicles Are Expensive in US

    I wonder how this comparison/differential between us and those non-green Europeans will affect this story
    europe as of 2014 0.08 gr/km

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  12. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    That doesn't seem to have stopped them from becoming the number 2 or 3 auto maker in the world, depending on the year.
    Again, clever marketing and aesthetics.

    Michael Jackson, while still above ground, sold millions of records and was a chart topping producer of music for many years. I suspect on many lists of all-time record sales he is #2 or #3. So we can clearly see that sales numbers are not directly linked to merit, can't we?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregSY View Post
    VW has never been a company with a strong foundation in just about anything. Their engineering has always been shaky, their credibility never anything to write home about. At some point they re-invented themselves and sales took off...but if you look very closely at that reinvention it was based on clever marketing and aesthetics, not anything solid.

    I can't think of a single year in which they produced a 'world leader' vehicle.
    vw 1.6 diesel/turbo diesel
    vw t1/2/3/4/5
    audi quattro
    audi a8

  14. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregSY View Post
    Again, clever marketing and aesthetics.

    Michael Jackson, while still above ground, sold millions of records and was a chart topping producer of music for many years. I suspect on many lists of all-time record sales he is #2 or #3. So we can clearly see that sales numbers are not directly linked to merit, can't we?
    You doubt the merit of michael jackson as a music entertainer?

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  16. #32
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    The true scandal is what is happening with emission regulations. These days meeting emissions regs apparently means using more fuel and artificially lowering effiency (Burning stoichiometric instead of lean, as an example) just to pass those emission tests.

    If you ask me - all that emission crap should be dropped and legislation based on fuel consumption introduced. A 1991 car with a simple catalytic converter does not stink once warm. That is good enough for me.

    What disturbs me greatly however, is the fact that car fuel economy is no longer really improving, in fact it has decreased again.

    Basically - only an idiot would not try to cheat this BS. I am really pro environment, but car emission regs are going way too far these days.

  17. #33
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    I don't give VW a pass, but I wish for once one of these "critical" entities could just tell the truth & say "we can't get there yet".

    More than just a few times I've been asked to do something that was a reach, always the same answer "I guess you'll have to show me that"... A few times I was given some support, aid & even got it done, most times the request was withdrawn. Interesting, that bit, It's just being honest IMO - it works. I was also deeply disturbed when Caterpillar did the same (attempt at cheating thing) instead of just saying to California "I guess we just can't support any new sales in your state 'till we really do figure out how" & leave it at that. There is NO implied obligation that you have to do business with anyone.

    This goes back to the beginnings of EPA emissions, and the first victim was "lean burn". A method Chrysler used that had lower emissions than the "air pump" in the downstream exhaust the other guys were using. The EPA explicitly stated "We don't understand how this works so you can't use it". WTF! Never-mind the fact that Toyota had much the same and were using it on non-US motors as a matter of course because it DID work, was less complicated overall and just good engineering & fuel management. So it was used everywhere else getting better mileage with less emissions... That's just dumb-ass stacked on top of dumb-ass.

    As mentioned by thermite from Roman times - "who guards the guardians". EPA may be packed with slow kids but they sure are "witty, chatty & mean".

    BTW - my definition of a "critical" entity here is a servant that does something others seem to "need" but "require" someone else to do. Do it your f-ing self works for me...

    Matt

  18. #34
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    In California, CARB (California Air Resources Board) or as I like to call them: (California Agency to Restrict Business) is in hot water over the bogus data used to justify their Diesel Regulations.

    Most older trucks have to be parked or updated with particulate filters ($ 10,000 +) to remain on the road. Eventually they will need to install newer engines to keep them on the road.

    CA Air Resources Board May Choke on Diesel Regulations | FlashReport

    CARB scandal also shames California media | CalWatchdog.com

    CARB ? Diesel Emissions Overestimated 340% | Co2 Insanity

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  20. #35
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    I recently rented a 2.0L TDI VW Passat with a 6 speed manual, and drove the snot out of it all over eastern Europe for two weeks. According to the on-board computer, I averaged 52 MPG! I'm sure I could have done much better had I not been in the "drive it like a rental" mindset most of the time. I really liked that car. It was comfortable, roomy, mildly fun to drive, and fuel economy was nearly twice that of my wife's little Acura... and 4-5x that of my pickup.

    When I got back to the US, I began thinking about replacing my wife's car with one of these fuel sipping TDIs... maybe try to find a deal on a low mileage lease trade-in. Well, things got really busy at work, and I never found the time to go tire-kicking. It makes me wonder what kind of a mess I'd be in, if any, had I bought one of these things a week or two ago - just before the shit hit the fan. It also makes me wonder how stupid, if at all, it would be to try to buy a used one now. I've heard that despite their stellar MPG, they are not the most reliable cars on the road. I wouldn't want repair costs to negate the money I would save on fuel.

    As a side note, the VW I rented in Europe has this fuel saving feature that shuts the engine off if the car is in neutral and the clutch is disengaged. That freaked me out the first time it happened.

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  22. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterfalke View Post
    ..Remember that orange river the EPA caused just a few weeks ago? They knew that might happen, and went in anyways...
    Point of reference.
    That event was inevitable, the EPA contractors were trying to find out how much polluted water was hidden behind a poorly installed plug.
    The discharge was a small fraction of the on going pollution flowing from dozens of portals in that drainage.

    Concrete creek and most of that basin have been essentially sterile for decades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    I know several people involved with the fuel industry. Back when they first started collecting fumes at the gas pumps they tried several things. First they exhausted it at the rear of the building. Then they captured it with the tank trucks, transferred it to the empty fuel tankers and vented it mid-ocean. Now they supposedly condense and recycle it.

    There is more bullshit in "green" endeavors than anything except advertising, politics, and law.

    And lets not forget that they used to put MTBE (Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether), one of the nastiest chemicals around, into pump gas to "reduce pollution".

    EPA = Environmental Poisoning Agency?
    MTBE is nothing compared to Tetraethyl lead...whose use was defended tooth and nail for decades.

    Gasoline vapors, particularly in urban settings, cause ground level ozone.

  24. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterfalke View Post
    There is a line between having clean air and water, which everyone is for, and being an eco-nazi that demands even tighter and tighter restrictions from already exceedingly clean vehicles. We don't have massive smog problems or polluted water in most of the country anymore, and in the few places that do they are not actually doing anything to fix the problem. In all reality, the government is usually right in the middle of making things worse. Remember that orange river the EPA caused just a few weeks ago? They knew that might happen, and went in anyways. And the busses that drive around here empty 24/7 belching out big clouds of untreated diesel smoke do so with the government blessing and support because 'mass transit is good for the environment.' I want a clean car, but I want an affordable car that works first. Just like not being able to buy a proper vented gas can anymore so they swell up and pop the cap on a hot day, the EPA is operating without common sense, and they are beyond the point of being beneficial to most of the people in this country. But I'm sure you have absolutely no problem with them showing up at your shop with their assault rifles and armored personal carriers and demanding to see your entire operation. Because they do that now.
    Having had personal experience with alphabet-agency eco-nazis, I'd call this a pretty good summary of the problem with the "nanny state," which is an overly nice term for what it really is. Its overriding goal long ago became self-perpetuation and expansion. Their younger field personnel were messianic power-drunk Marxists decades ago and it's unlikely they've mellowed any since. I admire anyone who is able to circumvent their arrogance on any level. Volkswagen has "set aside" billions to handle the fallout. Billions! That's a pretty good demonstration of not being intimidated, a enormously scaled-up version of getting nailed by a radar trap on the way to work: "Hey, no problem officer, the $200 fine's just a cost of doing business. Thank you, and have a nice day."

  25. #39
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    Default Volkswagen cheated on emission tests.....Stocks plummet.

    The problem with the EPA is that there is no Congressional oversight!

    Obama has figured out he can't get any laws through Congress (except Obamacare), so he is forcing his liberal agenda on America through regulations. And the Congress ain't got the balls to stop him.

    I have no problem with improving emissions and bettering the environment. But liberals want to implement the changes so fast it is very disruptive to sectors of our economy. You have to implement sweeping changes slowly, so as not to starve people out!

    Caterpillar gave up on making an over-the-road truck engine. Their locomotive division, EMD, hasn't been able to sell a new engine in America since the Tier 4 standards kicked in on January 1.

    How many jobs have been negatively impacted by this? And this is just one small example.

    Wait, in liberal utopia, those displaced workers can go to work making solar panels for Solyndra.

    And the tens-of-thousands of unemployed coal miners, railroaders, equipment makers, etc. can all work for GE building windmills.

    Without outright taxpayer subsidies there would be NO solar or wind industry in this country.

    ToolCat
    Last edited by cnctoolcat; 09-23-2015 at 08:45 PM.

  26. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    How many jobs have been negatively impacted by this? And this is just one small example.
    How many jobs is a life destroyed by cancer worth?
    Fundamentally you are saying that money is more important than life.

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