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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    Having had personal experience with alphabet-agency eco-nazis, I'd call this a pretty good summary of the problem with the "nanny state," which is an overly nice term for what it really is. Its overriding goal long ago became self-perpetuation and expansion. Their younger field personnel were messianic power-drunk Marxists decades ago and it's unlikely they've mellowed any since. I admire anyone who is able to circumvent their arrogance on any level. Volkswagen has "set aside" billions to handle the fallout. Billions! That's a pretty good demonstration of not being intimidated, a enormously scaled-up version of getting nailed by a radar trap on the way to work: "Hey, no problem officer, the $200 fine's just a cost of doing business. Thank you, and have a nice day."
    I am reminded of the Dow plant that had, as a line item, a $10k per day budget line so they could dump their waste water in the river.
    Cool, right?
    A dead river for 10k per day...hell of a deal.

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    The problem with the EPA is that their is no Congressional oversight!
    Why should political animals be in charge of a scientific regulatory agency?
    So they can carve out exceptions for their lobbyists?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    The EPA has been in business for 45 years. Cancer rates seem to be increasing. Asthma was rare when I was in school. Now the Army even takes kids with Asthma. Industrial chemicals and pharmaceuticals are showing up in drinking water.

    And now it turns out that biodegradeable clays and steel shot are worse for the environment than what they replaced.
    I remember industrial grade smog and not being able to go out for recess.
    Love canal?
    Cuyahoga River?
    Acid rain dissolving our monuments and killing forests?

    This event just shows that without oversight businesses will gladly go back to shitting in our nest to make a buck.

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  6. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    How many jobs is a life destroyed by cancer worth?
    Fundamentally you are saying that money is more important than life.
    Y'know . .you just self-identified as part of the problem, not the solution.

    I can remember days one could not see the sun at noon in Pittsburgh from the coke ovens and mills, '46-'48.

    I can ALSO remember pulling Rainbow trout out of pristine streams in Vermont, '49-'50.
    And requiring a series of 22 immunizations to work the Engineer float bridging classes on Tompkins Basin off the Potomac, 'coz it had long-since become a chemical and septic SEWER by '66-68.

    And now one can again breath clean air in Pittsburgh, catch fish and even EAT the fish from the Potomac.

    But I can't spend much time in Hong Kong, nor even Hong Kong folks spend more than a day upriver in their ancestral village near Guangzhou 2000 onward.

    Folks used to die young in England's Midlands, Germany's Ruhr, parts of France and Italy and Belgium and.. and... so others could have what THEY wanted.

    Folks are STILL dying in China so 'WE' can have cheap goods from firms that offshored to 'beat' those magical "regulations" that promised to kiss and make it better .. with nought but a box-tick on paper.

    I LIKE clean air and clean soil and clean water.

    The only thing I DETEST more than pollution of those is the F*****g opportunistic Sandalistas - wear that sandal if it fits - who run their damned mouths and keyboards, jump up on podiums at every opportunity to blame everyone ELSE and vote-in exponentially more assoholic yet versions of themselves .. these ones for SALE yet..

    ...and shout "look at GREEN ME and my newest bit of paper law! The REST of you lot are granny-smotherers and baby-poisoners!"

    .. all the while simply getting in the WAY of those who actually have to FIX that shit.

    And DO.

    Just not as fast as one might wish.

    Partly because it costs MONEY to fix. And that MONEY has to have been EARNED somehow.

    'WE' may have forgotten what it cost to get here. China has not.

    They are still throwing themselves on that grenade and HOPING to do better.. someday.

    Just as we did.

    Bill

  7. #45
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    You seem to be missing the point.
    The point is that without vigilance the private sector will gladly shit on us all over again.
    Just as you note they are doing in places without our protections.

    Remember what China looks like the next time someone says we should reduce our environmental protections to better compete with them.

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  9. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miguels244 View Post
    You seem to be missing the point.
    The point is that without vigilance the private sector will gladly shit on us all over again.
    Just as you note they are doing in places without our protections.

    Remember what China looks like the next time someone says we should reduce our environmental protections to better compete with them.
    You, Sir, are but an opportunistic NOISE MAKER.

    Get off yer keyboard and actually go plant a TREE if you do nothing else.

    I have. MANY. More are still needed.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    go plant a TREE if you do nothing else.
    Like that would really make a difference.
    Of course, I suppose it would make you feel better about yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    You, Sir, are but an opportunistic NOISE MAKER.

    Get off yer keyboard and actually go plant a TREE if you do nothing else.

    I have. MANY. More are still needed.

    Bill
    While I am aware of this posters posting history, your response does not seem to be logical on
    its face. I seem to be missing something

    While I would not expect everyone to agree with every single EPA policy, the ridiculous know nothing rantings seen here about so called socialism and how they are glad a multinational corporation broke the law deserve much stronger response than anything he posted.

    We let 'capitalists' run the environment for 100 years before the EPA existed, and they made a huge royal mess of it.

    VW made a business decision, trying to earn more money and gain market share compared to their rivals who [supposedly] are following the rules. It was about money, and what next? Would the yahoos hereabouts cheer when they put fake airbags in? Or use paper mache for brake pads.

    While I am not overly fond of governmental control, in this area they have done as tremendous service, as you note, and was not, nor would it have been done by the benevolence of corporations.

    Yes government sucks, but I will take it over a overpaid CEO in Germany deciding what my air, water and land should look like.

    Every single time

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  13. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    While I am aware of this posters posting history, your response does not seem to be logical on
    its face. I seem to be missing something

    While I would not expect everyone to agree with every single EPA policy, the ridiculous know nothing rantings seen here about so called socialism and how they are glad a multinational corporation broke the law deserve much stronger response than anything he posted.

    We let 'capitalists' run the environment for 100 years before the EPA existed, and they made a huge royal mess of it.

    VW made a business decision, trying to earn more money and gain market share compared to their rivals who [supposedly] are following the rules. It was about money, and what next? Would the yahoos hereabouts cheer when they put fake airbags in? Or use paper mache for brake pads.

    While I am not overly fond of governmental control, in this area they have done as tremendous service, as you note, and was not, nor would it have been done by the benevolence of corporations.

    Yes government sucks, but I will take it over a overpaid CEO in Germany deciding what my air, water and land should look like.

    Every single time
    Guess what? The spirit that MOVES those son-of-bitches STILL ain't government.

    It is their OWN GRANDKIDS start dying young. Struth. Major scandal in Hong Kong, now China as the 'rich' - meaning anyone who can scrape up air-fare, overseas tuition and lodging - export the kids to foreign schools 'coz the respiratory ailments are killing 'em.

    That's why it takes just about exactly three human generations each go before folk get their collective heads out and start cleaning up their act - two to three more before the job is reasonably well completed.

    Regulations aren't leading that. They are FOLLOWING it. Usual Sandalista noise-makers see the way it MUST go, run to the head of the line and wave big flags as if THEY were the initiators of a process already started by brutal necessity.

    Just check the historical timelines of the countries as have gone before. Show me the dates on EPA regs for the British Midlands.

    Most of the 'horses' had already fled the burning barn by the time any useful 'rules' were emplaced.

    Dead folks drove that. Paperwork followed.

    Are we getting better or faster at that? Going preventive, rather than reactive?

    Not so as China has noticed.

    Still three generations before the realization hits home that it is not some OTHER Pilgrims' kids. It is yer OWN.

    Same again HERE with BIS in plastic containers, excess Nitrites in meats, insane amounts of salt and sugar... hormones and other food additives... all of them FDA approved for Donkey's years.. right up to a week before being banned.

    Reactive. USA went over the 50% mark for Diabetes last week. And it is basically 'self-imposed'.

    Getting to Pro-active is HARD because of all the opportunistic noise-makers as have poisoned the well of trust and good sense - even caused PUSH BACK. Bigtime.

    "Ve gang too soon elt, und too late schmart", humans do..

    Bill

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    Liberals always take their points to extremes, rather than discussing the issue at face value.

    Nobody is saying do away with the EPA.

    What I am saying is there needs to be oversight, or else the EPA runs rampant, just like the private sector would do without the EPA.

    The Supreme Court is throttling the EPA and their clear violations of not only charter, but state and federal law as well.

    The basic foundation of a democracy is that you must have checks-and-balances. Without it special interests run wild, and push their agenda unfettered upon the masses.

    The environmentalists are indeed a special interest group....what, maybe 1/3 of America? So why is it their agenda gets to run full-steam ahead, without restraint?

    We're still about 100 years shy of concrete data to either prove or disprove global warming.

    And don't start taking the shit to extremes again, of course we need to curb pollution and take care of the environment. But we need to be doing it in a bi-partisan way, with everybody having some input, rather than just the left and their President.

    ToolCat

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    Lots of pontificating from the polar regions of world views . . .

    Bottom line - VW lied - and I am happy to see that there is still a sense by which people don't universally celebrate lying. (although even here among the posts above there are those who think the ends justify the means of lying . . . )

    Laws are vastly for a societies benefit - and while I am in hearty agreement that some laws are onerous and some ridiculous . . . the significant majority of laws are a huge benefit to everyone and it is the system we have and if you don't like it, work to change it within the framework provided for such change.

    I can't believe that this kind of engineered cheating was not known all the way to the top of VW's management. Fines will be levied, people may go to jail and VW will eventually rebound.

    Given the predominant post-modern worldview of "western" nations - it is only a matter of time when cheating and lying will be more universally celebrated and this little issue of software manipulated fuel mixtures will be seen as quaint.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    Liberals always take their points to extremes, rather than discussing the issue at face value.

    ToolCat
    Yeah... This is the gravitational singularity calling the teapot "black".

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    Quote Originally Posted by motion guru View Post

    Given the predominant post-modern worldview of "western" nations - it is only a matter of time when cheating and lying will be more universally celebrated and this little issue of software manipulated fuel mixtures will be seen as quaint.
    Already has. Upton Sinclair. First War era. Wesson oil ALLEGED de-tox of cottonseed oil. GE & Westinghouse fixing turbine prices, 1950's was it? Alleged MD's? Banksters? Too numerous to cite if we had a month.

    Any "Body-corporate" is SUPPOSED to have the 'corporate veil' pierced and the bastids held personally liable when they allow, support, overlook, or simply MISS even in HONEST IGNORANCE their firm having committed a felony.

    Q: How often does THAT actually happen?

    A: Clearly, nowhere near often ENOUGH.

    Outta here. Long drive, etc.. beat me up another day.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Guess what? The spirit that MOVES those son-of-bitches STILL ain't government.

    It is their OWN GRANDKIDS start dying young. Struth. Major scandal in Hong Kong, now China as the 'rich' - meaning anyone who can scrape up air-fare, overseas tuition and lodging - export the kids to foreign schools 'coz the respiratory ailments are killing 'em.
    Bull shit.
    They leave rather than change their behavior.

    The spirit you talk about is that of the majority being shit on demanding that the government step in.

    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Already has. Upton Sinclair. First War era. Wesson oil ALLEGED de-tox of cottonseed oil. GE & Westinghouse fixing turbine prices, 1950's was it? Alleged MD's? Banksters? Too numerous to cite if we had a month.

    Any "Body-corporate" is SUPPOSED to have the 'corporate veil' pierced and the bastids held personally liable when they allow, support, overlook, or simply MISS even in HONEST IGNORANCE their firm having committed a felony.

    Q: How often does THAT actually happen?

    A: Clearly, nowhere near often ENOUGH.
    Yep, but every time such measures are implemented or attempted the regulations are rejected as onerous or job killers.

  20. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    The basic foundation of a democracy is that you must have checks-and-balances. Without it special interests run wild, and push their agenda unfettered upon the masses.

    The environmentalists are indeed a special interest group....what, maybe 1/3 of America? So why is it their agenda gets to run full-steam ahead, without restraint?
    The EPA is not a policy agency, it's a law enforcement agency.
    Why should the criminals get a seat at the table when discussing which laws to enforce.

  21. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregSY View Post
    VW has never been a company with a strong foundation in just about anything. Their engineering has always been shaky, their credibility never anything to write home about. At some point they re-invented themselves and sales took off...but if you look very closely at that reinvention it was based on clever marketing and aesthetics, not anything solid.

    I can't think of a single year in which they produced a 'world leader' vehicle.
    As has been stated here a number of times in the past by me and others, a Consumer Reports summary published a few years ago clearly showed VW cars as having the worst ten year reliability record of any major car maker on the planet. Yes, worse than GM when GM was way worse than they are now.

    (of course Land Rover, Jaguar and various exotics would probably be worse still but were not considered "major" car makers and not in the graph)

    VW can fix this with software alterations to conform to emmisions limits. But something will give in the process...either the MPG will get way worse or acceleration will crawl to Yugo specs...or both.

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  23. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milacron View Post
    As has been stated here a number of times in the past by me and others, a Consumer Reports summary published a few years ago clearly showed VW cars as having the worst ten year reliability record of any major car maker ! Yes, worse than GM when GM was way worse than they are now.

    (of course Range Rover and Jaguar would probably be worse still but were not considered "major" car makers and not in the graph)

    VW can fix this with software alterations to conform to emmisions limits. But something will give in the process...either the MPG will get way worse or acceleration will crawl to Yugo specs...or both.
    Can't be so, they are GERMAN.


    My understanding is that MPG will take the hit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    Nobody is saying do away with the EPA.
    Actually, several people are.
    In fact, defunding and eliminating the EPA is an ongoing theme in the GOP.
    Including many sitting legislators.

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  26. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterfalke View Post
    . . . I'm sure you have absolutely no problem with them showing up at your shop with their assault rifles and armored personal carriers and demanding to see your entire operation. Because they do that now.
    Your "logic" escapes me.

    First, I'm very unhappy that GM execs were willing to kill customers to save a couple cents on ignition switches.

    Second, I'm somewhat unhappy the VW is willing to pollute 50x above the legal limit, while pretending to have super technology, in order to sell some more cars.

    From that you infer that I must really like government run amuk?

    Thinking crooks shouldn't get a pass doesn't mean I think bad cops get one instead.

    More to the point, just who do you know that has had the EPA break down their doors with assault rifles and armored personal carriers? Did 100 folks die, like the GM case? Were millions directly affected? If so, I'll join you in the same level of outrage.

    It still amazes me how so many discussions get turned into political nonsense.

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  28. #60
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    latest I have read is that the illegal setting increased engine life by lower operating temps, and increased mileage, horsepower, and torque, in different amounts on different models.
    But no doubt, they did this to make the cars SEEM both legal and a better buy.

    The incentive was to make their customers happy- everybody wanted a magic bean, a goose that lays golden eggs, a perpetual motion machine, and VW just gave the customer what they wanted.

    I cant see how the EPA is the villain here- there were clearly stated rules, and VW broke the rules.
    If you dont like the rules, then you need to deal with the lawmakers who passed the laws, not the enforcement agency.

    A LOT of the pollution rules in the USA dont come from Obama- they often originate with the SCAQMD- the huge amount of cars sold in southern California means that most automakers design their cars to be legal in LA- and then sell the same car everywhere else, cause its cheaper to just make one car. National standards tend to have followed SoCal standards for 30 years or more now.

    So these guys- three of whom are appointed, the other ten elected- are the source of many of the trends in emissions rules, in the USA.
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