What unique products does China make? - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Currently, if you want a new open die forging hammer, you buy chinese. While they are not Unique in this, their only real competition is Turkey, which makes copies of small german hammers, and a couple of euro companies that claim to make hammer to order, but whose prices average 5 times the chinese.
    Me, I am not a big fan of the Turkish designs, although many people like them- they are fabbed from steel plate.
    For a cast iron self contained air hammer, its Chinese or used. The USA stopped making em 30 or so years ago, and the 30 year old price was roughly triple today's chinese price. I have been running my chinese hammer for almost 20 years now, its a great machine and has had no problems.

    Anyang is currently the largest manufacturer of open and closed die hammers, and hydraulic presses, in the world, and, in many market segments, close to the ONLY manufacturer.

    No melamine in this baby.
    automatic oil pipe band forging line in Russia - YouTube

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    So, they install a robot, and then pay eight guys to stand there and watch it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Dickman View Post
    So, they install a robot, and then pay eight guys to stand there and watch it?
    It's in the "Worker's Paradise." Don't knock it.

    Dennis

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    I would imagine everybody wanted to be in the movie. As mentioned, that video was shot in a russian factory. Those bystanders are being paid by Putin, not Chairman Mao.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Dickman View Post
    So, they install a robot, and then pay eight guys to stand there and watch it?
    Pretty much. Makes me laugh all the time - in the US, you can't expect one guy to run more than four machines at a time. In China, you can't expect fewer than four guys to run one machine.

    If this deal were based on real, honest-to-god Competition ? China couldn't compete with the Three-Toed Sloth Co.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    Pretty much. Makes me laugh all the time - in the US, you can't expect one guy to run more than four machines at a time. In China, you can't expect fewer than four guys to run one machine.

    If this deal were based on real, honest-to-god Competition ? China couldn't compete with the Three-Toed Sloth Co.
    Here's another "cultural" question (I'm all fascinated) So if I can comfortably run, program and set-up EVERY machine in the building, where would that skill get me realistically in the Chinese culture? I think hung or drown, right? I would think a guy couldn't show that skill as it would compromise the job security of the others.

    But what if 1 guy can actually run 2-3 machines at the same time (not all the bull, just get parts in and out) what do the other guys do?

    R

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by litlerob1 View Post
    Here's another "cultural" question (I'm all fascinated) So if I can comfortably run, program and set-up EVERY machine in the building, where would that skill get me realistically in the Chinese culture? I think hung or drown, right? I would think a guy couldn't show that skill as it would compromise the job security of the others.
    No, they don't think that way. And you couldn't do it anyway ... the place is so bogged-down in red tape and ritual that that kind of thing can't happen. Say you're making shafts, ten inches long, 2.5" diameter. What are you going to measure it with ? Ahhh, the calipers are in the tool room ! The tool room girl is off today because her son had a cold, you can wait until tomorrow to measure the parts ! Go back to your lathe and stand around ... but better not stand around, that looks bad, just make un-measured parts and hope for the best. Tomorrow comes, toolroom girl is back, shall we check the parts ? Well, they're already made, what good is checking them ? And if they are bad the worker gets to pay so maybe better not ...

    You can look at hundreds of photos of Chinese factories and you're not going to see measuring tools in any of them

    Stuff like that is pan ... pan ... pan-something. It is pervasive, throughout the system, throughout the country. Whatever you do, don't try to do anything official. I have the signatures of every US secretary of state since Condoleeza Rice. For what ? For nothing. They are nuts.

    I've seen some shops where the guys were better than average but then they manage to bog things down in some other way. Parts come from a supplier, fifty boxes. They'll unload the truck, stack the boxes outside the building, then clear out a room to put them in, restack them all inside, then when they go to incoming q/c (even having incoming q/c was my idea) restack them again in another room without rhyme or reason, so when it's time to pull parts and check them it's restack again ... Time seems to be an unknown concept.

    And possible deviations or speedbumps in the path. What happens if this part isn't right ? What are you talking about ? Of course it will be right, we have a Brand Name Machine ! So when it isn't right (those creeps in the US measured the parts ! no fair !), start all over. After doing q/c on an incoming batch of wheel castings -- you know those things that you put inside your tires that keep your car from crashing into a tree ? Anyway, over 50% of them were not up to snuff which I explained thoroughly with 8 x 10 glossies with circles and arrows, the answer was "if we complain too much they won't sell to us so better forget it."

    O-kaaaay. Works for you, works for me. Banksters and consumers in the US are so bloody concerned about saving three bucks, not my fault if ten guys croak because of our shit parts. Heck, not my fault if 100 guys croak, the Brilliant Leaders of the US (Alan Greenspan at their head, it's basic economics, stupid ! I'm a professional and I know this stuff!) created the situation, I sure as hell didn't move all manufacturing overseas.

    But what if 1 guy can actually run 2-3 machines at the same time (not all the bull, just get parts in and out) what do the other guys do?
    You can't, because it's really hierarchical and the managers don't have a clue either so "this is your machine and these are your blanks and here ya go, Bunky" is how it is. Nobody is going to go crazy trying to do extra in this environment. Some young guys (and girls, but there were more girls before they started dressing sexy and getting better opportunities) are better than others and do try to do a good job but all in all ... How much does a pair of mikes cost ? I have never, in twenty-five years, seen even one guy go out and buy himself a few mikes to alleviate this situation. I can't remember seeing even one guy with any tools of his own, although someone somewhere must have.

    Also, there doesn't seem to be any mental connection between the company doing well and the employee doing well. Probably because there isn't one

    This isn't just manufacturing. It's everything. This is the only place I've been where KFC habitually runs out of chicken and nobody cares. Can they call the supplier and get some wings over ? "Can you eat mashed potatoes instead ?" It is so messed up and so ridiculous that you'll either relax and watch in amazement or have an aneurism. Chicken wings, mashed potatoes, it's all organic, right ?

    China's middle name is Inertia. And Mass. With 1.2 billion people, it's like each worker ant picks up one grain of sand and moves it one inch. Even if 1/3 of them go the wrong way, the beach does get moved.

    And they manage to get along fine, which says something about our fixation on "efficiency" and "competitiveness."

    It would probably drive most people crazy. But since I started out that way, no biggy. There is no doubt in my mind that a US factory of 1970 with 100 guys would wipe the floor with a current-day China factory of 1,000 workers. But that doesn't matter, does it ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by litlerob1 View Post
    Here's another "cultural" question (I'm all fascinated) So if I can comfortably run, program and set-up EVERY machine in the building, where would that skill get me realistically in the Chinese culture? I think hung or drown, right? I would think a guy couldn't show that skill as it would compromise the job security of the others.

    But what if 1 guy can actually run 2-3 machines at the same time (not all the bull, just get parts in and out) what do the other guys do?

    R
    Maybe the question that should be asked is how much more a machinist in the USA earns more than a Chinese one?

    Simply comparing the hourly wage isn't enough as what can be bought for the money earned and used isn't the same.

    Standard of living in China - Wikipedia

    Cost of Living in China. Prices in China. Updated Aug 217

    USD $1 = CNY (Renminbi) 6.66 or CNY 1 = $0.15

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    Weird views of China presented and I do get how we love to hate them and the reasons why.

    For sure there are plenty of backwards shops. (maybe a few of those in the US too)
    Also some state of the art places. (maybe more than we have here)
    The bigger problem I see is underestimating the "enemy" and their capabilities by focusing on the bad so we can feel good about ourselves.
    There are shit shops in every country on the planet. It is not these places that are gonna clean your clock.
    There is nothing in the water that makes people here vs there smarter or dumber.

    Old enough to remember that anything made in Japan was... well just plain low dollar junk and trash and they should not be taken seriously.
    With time that seemed to change a bit and more than a few may now have Jap machine tools or cars.
    A thought that was unimaginable at one time in the not too distant past.
    Now, how about India? On your radar yet? One hopes so.
    Bob

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  12. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Weird views of China presented
    I got the distinct impression that SeaMoss knows what he's talking about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Maybe the question that should be asked is how much more a machinist in the USA earns more than a Chinese one?

    Simply comparing the hourly wage isn't enough as what can be bought for the money earned and used isn't the same.

    Standard of living in China - Wikipedia

    Cost of Living in China. Prices in China. Updated Aug 217

    USD $1 = CNY (Renminbi) 6.66 or CNY 1 = $0.15
    Why would cost of living have anything to do with MY question? I'm pretty sure I said; "another cultural question" not how much does it cost to live and work in China. I see that everything is cheap, except crap like Levis and Cappuccino, I see that the average rent is a little above half what a months salary is (on average).

    And that has what to do with the cultural response of Chinese workers to another worker doing more than normal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldwrench View Post
    I got the distinct impression that SeaMoss knows what he's talking about.
    I think he does too, albeit I think he may be off his tits sometimes. I think he is "in the know" and usually pretty funny, even if he might believe in "Queens rule".


    R

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    Quote Originally Posted by litlerob1 View Post
    Why would cost of living have anything to do with MY question?
    R
    it's called "Putting things in perspective".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    it's called "Putting things in perspective".
    Usually I agree with you Gordon, I like your posts and have been reading them for about 12 years. Have you lost your mind lately?

    How in good conscious, even attempt to respond to a direct question with that response?

    What "perspective" are you referring to? The perspective of the under paid person, who pays more than half their income to rent? And that relates to the social/cultural dynamic of a response from said culture to co-workers, working above expectations, HOW?

    I'm a little worried about ya buddy.

    Robert

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    Quote Originally Posted by litlerob1 View Post
    .... I like your posts and have been reading them for about 12 years.....
    12 years eh?

    Hmmm, Gordon has been here for ~7 years, you have been here for ~4 years.

    Is this the 'new' math I've been hearing about?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gewehr 98 View Post
    12 years eh?

    Hmmm, Gordon has been here for ~7 years, you have been here for ~4 years.

    Is this the 'new' math I've been hearing about?
    You are right about 12 years, since he hasn't been here that long, my mistake. I on the other hand, have. I changed OS' some time back and the site wouldn't let me log back in, so I created a new username (ohhh about 4 years ago I guess). If you search the members list, my old user name is right above my newer user name. Regardless, I could have been reading posts from 2000 without a membership.

  18. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gewehr 98 View Post
    12 years eh?...Is this the 'new' math I've been hearing about?
    Maybe it just seemed longer, like Chinese water torture...

    Sorry, couldn't resist

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    Quote Originally Posted by litlerob1 View Post
    Usually I agree with you Gordon, I like your posts and have been reading them for about 12 years. Have you lost your mind lately?

    How in good conscious, even attempt to respond to a direct question with that response?

    What "perspective" are you referring to? The perspective of the under paid person, who pays more than half their income to rent? And that relates to the social/cultural dynamic of a response from said culture to co-workers, working above expectations, HOW?

    I'm a little worried about ya buddy.

    Robert
    Have you ever been to China and visited Chinese companies?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    Have you ever been to China and visited Chinese companies?
    No I have not. Hence, the first question (#46), and the follow up question (#51) and the follow up to that in #53.

    Maybe it just seemed longer, like Chinese water torture...

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Weird views of China presented
    It's not that weird from up here

    standard.jpg

    it's when we go down to the street level that it gets weird ... but I gotta stick up for the place, once in a while we get this

    better.jpg

    and I do get how we love to hate them and the reasons why.
    Hate ? You'd go crazy here if you let minor details like being run over on the sidewalk bother you. The only one I hate is the bitch at the Industrial and Commercial Bureau who cheated us out of $500. We didn't have to file a yearly report, then we did, but no one told us. So later on there was a fine ... when I remonstrated, the answer was "We put it on our website" with that bland moonfaced I-dare-you look of the True Bureaucrat. Her I'd be happy to see drawn and quartered.

    It's not even the $500, it was that "I am fucking you and there's nothing you can do about it" look on her face that did it. Drawn and quartered, with the boiling oil treatment for no additional cost.

    but the rest ? All you can do is laugh about it.

    For sure there are plenty of backwards shops. Also some state of the art places.
    Oh yeah ... like these guys

    p1030173.jpg

    but what they make with that is this

    hungry_steelbunny.jpg

    nom nom nom yummy. Or these guys

    p1030336.jpg

    Notice the fellow in the front taking a dump ? He's actually doing final fit on the bearing mount for the ball screw for the rail. With his handy-dandy 4" copy-Bosch grinder. That should work well.

    I could go on. At length. There's hundreds of photos in the archives. But let's cut to the chase - there's almost nothing manufactured here that's very good. A few things here and there are okay but in general, stuff is barely good enough to get by for a few weeks.

    The bigger problem I see is underestimating the "enemy" and their capabilities by focusing on the bad so we can feel good about ourselves.
    There are shit shops in every country on the planet. It is not these places that are gonna clean your clock.
    There is nothing in the water that makes people here vs there smarter or dumber.
    But blind acceptance of the media memes doesn't serve anyone well either. Fact is, I have met no one in China whom I could respect as a machinist or designer. A lot of nice people but not one of them is truly sharp. Okay, yes sharp but not about machining. Sharp in other ways. They don't care about quality. They care about money. (Brand names != quality.)

    US seems to have that problem as well.

    More to the point, they don't have to be. And they aren't really interested in being. They own you. The US has decided to be all retail. Well, cut off the source and retail falls flat on its face. The US can't make shit now. It would take twenty or thirty years to rebuild what we had in the seventies. Ain't gonna happen. The guys running Walmart aren't going to let it happen.

    There is no reason for China to "get better." They don't have to. And they aren't interested in it. What they are interested in is cheapening stuff so they can make more cash. Then using that cash to buy up all the resources in the world so that there ain't never gonna be no one who replaces them as Factory to the Stars.

    Empire by buying the place up instead of Empire by threatening people with guns, that's the conflict of the future.

    Did you hear China and India just withdrew their troops from a little spat ? The funny part was, which I did NOT read in the US press, was that last week the Chinese troops and the Indian troops had a rock fight. A fucking rock fight. Made me laugh. "Was that a two pound rock or a one pound rock ? Well, in all the excitement I kinda lost track. But you gotta ask yourself, swami ... do you wanna risk it ? "

    Old enough to remember that anything made in Japan was... well just plain low dollar junk and trash and they should not be taken seriously.
    Japen isn't China. Also remember that at one time, not that long ago, India was going to eclipse China ? Never happened, did it ? A!=B!=C just because somebody writing for the Washington Post says "this is going to happen !"

    With time that seemed to change a bit and more than a few may now have Jap machine tools or cars.
    Not this kid No Jap cars no Jap machinery no Jap tools. Stick to US-made as much as humanly possible.

    Not that it helped any

    Now, how about India? On your radar yet? One hopes so.
    Been hearing that junk for years. Ain't gonna happen. Not in my life, for sure.

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    But speaking of weird, had to throw this up (limit 5 photos per post so ...) Anybody wanna run over for a nice German brewski after work ?

    alittle_weird.jpg


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