Why we must go metric - cold turkey - now. - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    How is it easier when both require the same number of steps and tooling? The only thing that changes is what's written on the shank.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Shaper View Post
    How is it easier when both require the same number of steps and tooling? The only thing that changes is what's written on the shank.
    Please tell me where I can find a tap marked .190"x.03125" on the shank and a drill marked .159" on the shank??

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    There are only two countries in the world that stick to the Imperial measurements, the US and Liberia. The US has lost untold billions in exports over the past 3 or 4 decades due to our refusal to switch to the metric system. Of note is that the majority of large manufacturing companies have already switched to the metric system.

    I also find it interesting in that several years ago I wrote a letter to the editor of Popular Mechanics advocating a change to the metric system. The venomous responses wee incredible some even going so far as to call me a communist all based on a system of measurement.

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    Dr Stan "There are only two countries in the world that stick to the Imperial measurements, the US and Liberia. The US has lost untold billions in exports over the past 3 or 4 decades due to our refusal to switch to the metric system. Of note is that the majority of large manufacturing companies have already switched to the metric system."


    I was under the impression that we lost all those exports because of how the tax system is structured . I really don't believe that a measuring system could cost us business ,but I do believe that a tax system structured the way that is would .

    Hey, if I can make money using either system . I will do the job it is as easy as that .

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    I don't get this argument at all.

    I was under the impression that the USA IS!!! a metric country!!!
    http://lamar.colostate.edu/~hillger/laws/metric-conv.html

    I also know that my '04 Ford F150, the '00 Dodge Caravan and the '98 Dodge intrepid is a fully metric vehicle, less the hydraulic, exhaust and various plumbing components.

    In addition, I make aerospace related parts, designed by a Pratt & Whitney affiliate and it is drawn in metric with Imperial as the secondary.

    I also have a major customer in the industrial equipment field with a 60/40 market US vs. International. ALl of their drawing is metric, converted to imperial measurement for US component manufacturing.

    Tool suppliers are also quite ready to provide any size metric drills or taps off the shelf. I'd even go to the extent of saying that some oddball metric taps are readily available from inventory of a US source, yet they are difficult to obtain in some parts of the EU.

    The point is there is absolutely no reason, none whatsoever that a US company should loose sales due to the country not being a metric country.
    Though the worldwide perception is that the US is imperial, the fact is that it is not. Neither is the fact that US companies are unable to design metric components or equipment. Ditto for manufacturers, I think we can all read blueprints regardless of inch, metric or lightyears is the unit of measure.

    As to the argument of Imperial vs. Metric, there is no question in my mind that the decimal, ie metric is far easier to understand, and more importantly convert. Anyone stating otherwise is simply trying to state his/her preference based on the experience and comfort level. I - having grown up in the metric and then convert to the US - in fact include myself in that camp. I however acknowledge though that I do so simply because that is what I'm used to.
    At the same time I could not care less wether the print says .0433 or 1.1mm. Once on the print, they are nothing but digits.
    I do despise some of the ISO tolerancing due to it's need to check, verify and adjust at every level of the manufacturing process, but that is a different subject altogether.

    The notion though that the US is loosing sales due to not being a metric country however is bogus.

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    Tool Post - you are missing my point: WE CAN NOT COMPETE !

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    Jim - you did not make those devises on imperial machines. You made them on Metric machines imported from all over the world. Go and take a look.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    The notion though that the US is loosing sales due to not being a metric country however is bogus.
    I disagree because I know for fact that the US loses sales. I have worked for a few OEMs selling Capital equipment and some foreign companies will absolutely not buy a machine if it has inch screws and bolts. Its a pain to find inch screws and even tools in foreign countries.
    The company heads where I worked didn't care about lost sales since "we're americian take it or leave it" ...just my experiance

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    gbent- Are you not glad we have 12 commandments?

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    I would like for everybody to look at the arguments made by both, the pro metric and the contra metric. Read it carefully,than draw your own conclusions. It is an eye opener!

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    Hans

    I agree with your statement, and for that matter I agree with people making the decision against the imperial product.
    The point I was trying to make that there is absolutely no reason - technical or otherwise - for a US company not to design it's product in metric.
    It can still be manufactured on a metric or imperial machine using either system.
    If Juergen advocates the useage of metric, that's all fine. Each manufacturer can make his decision to switch to it.
    However, if universally the country forces the switch to the metric system by outlawing the imperial....well that is just not possible. Not overnight, not in 1 year nor in 10.

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    In Australia we went metric in the 1970's. You can still buy and sell imperial stuff though. My mics are metric but my digital calliper does both, ruler does both. Converting isn't much of a hassle. I keep a calculator handy as sometimes you get metric drawings for stuff you have to make on an imperial machine. There are very few lathes here that can't handle metric and imperial thread forms.

    Road signs just went up all on the one day. People handled it pretty well.

    Which is better doesn't really matter it is just that everyone pretty much uses metric. The real pain and money waster is when the two systems are combined on the one item.

    Something I have noticed is that the US uses metric pretty widely already. The Military talks in kliks and uses metric sizes for many of it's weapons. I think the M16 is 5.56 mm from memory or 22 calibre. They go old school on the 50 Cal but there you go. I am sure many machine shops are making lots of stuff to metric sizes and have done for years.

    I don't think anyone suggests banning imperial only making metric official. Road signs are easy to change but what of all the machinery for instance made to imperial sizes? It will be a long long time before it all goes as I have seen here where hydraulics are all made still to imperial sizes 30 years after the change. What is really strange about that one is they like to use metric sizes on the drawings but they are funny ones like 12.7mm instead of half inch and have UNF threads on them. Nothing against the Unified thread form but I am sure there are metric threads that are perfectly good for the same purpose.

    If you changed I don't think it would cause you much pain. The change over date would be just the day that things started going more towards a fully metric system.

    Stephen

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    I don’t think you need to immediately convert to metric, but I do think you need to teach it quite thoroughly alongside imperial (if you’re not already doing so), and the next generation will make its own mind up.

    In the UK, we officially went metric back in the 70’s, but we still use both systems here. I prefer designing and working in metric, it is indisputably easier. But I’m equally happy to work in imperial, although I do tend to double check my figures more when doing this. And for really precise stuff I still talk and think in thous’ and tenths, but I’m probably in the last generation – still sub 50 years-old – that will do this. I continue to hate working with most fractions though, except for the simple ones like ¼; ½; ¾; and so on, which apply equally as well to metric as imperial

    We still sell beer and milk in Pints, and our road signs and travel distances and speedometers are still in Miles. We still talk about mpg, rather than km/litre, and you can still buy fruit and veg in both pounds/ounces as well as grams and kilos.

    So teach it, don’t force it, and in time a preferred system will prevail and be chosen.

    Peter

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    I work in both systems without any issues. I find that the younger engineers are now drawing in metric, which does create a slight problem. When I buy steel, I have to buy 1/2 x 6 or 1/2 x 8 for example. If someone calls out a simple base plate for a machine to be 160 mm (6.3 inches), I have to buy the next size up, which is 8 inches wide, and mill off 1.7 inches. I can't buy 12.7 x 160 mm steel yet, nor do I see the steel manufacturers gung-ho to change their sizing. Finding metric material here is a slight issue right now. When you buy steel bar stock in the U.K. or Australia, do you buy it in metric sizes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hansdie View Post
    I disagree because I know for fact that the US loses sales. I have worked for a few OEMs selling Capital equipment and some foreign companies will absolutely not buy a machine if it has inch screws and bolts. Its a pain to find inch screws and even tools in foreign countries.
    The company heads where I worked didn't care about lost sales since "we're americian take it or leave it" ...just my experiance
    This has also been my experience. The US is the one that is out of step with the rest of the world.

    Metric is so much easier to work with. All the conversions are simply factors of ten, i.e. 10mm = 1 cm. In addition the volumes, weights, and linear measurements are interrelated. 1 liter or 1000 cc of water has a mass of 1 kilogram. If one knows or can calculate the volume one can look up the specific weight of the material and determine the mass of the object. Not as easy to do in the Imperial system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by juergenwt View Post
    .....hope the new administration has the will and backbone to make the change to metric a number one priority.
    IDM

    (It Don't Matter)

    SM

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    Quote Originally Posted by juergenwt View Post
    Tool Post - you are missing my point: WE CAN NOT COMPETE !
    True enough, another issue entirely. One for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Stan View Post
    a: The US is the one that is out of step with the rest of the world.

    b: All the conversions are simply factors of ten, i.e. 10mm = 1 cm.

    c: In addition the volumes, weights, and linear measurements are interrelated. 1 liter or 1000 cc of water has a mass of 1 kilogram. If one knows or can calculate the volume one can look up the specific weight of the material and determine the mass of the object.
    a: What would you do to put us in step with the rest of the world? WE ARE METRIC!!! The company which chooses to stick with the imperial at the cost of loosing sales does so at it's own peril! They can and do ( see automakers ) switch when beneficial.

    b: Correct about the factors, except cm is not used as an official measure. Neither is dm.

    c: That is a coincident and typically not true for most measurements. Just as 1 liter of milk isn't 1 kg. Though it is correct that 1L is 1000cc always.

    As for teaching in schools, they are actively doing that in my area. Oddly the kids seem to have some issues with it due to their parents having no clue. That will change if they are forcefeeding it long enough ( one reason the switch cannot be immediate and mandatory)
    There are also tons of legacy equipment around whith part and support requirements, while there are also tons of new equipment designed today using existing, tried and true reliable components which are imperial. The cost of redesign with metric, then holding inventory for both would be... well quite monumental in logistics and financial terms.

    Though I agree that there is a very large resistance throughout the country against the metric system, I really don't think that is the reason for it not being the predominant measure. Resistance is futile and we can switch when needed. Think back 10 years ago when the Internet and cellphones were not exactly on everyone's mind. Nowadays the outage of either one makes for a very buisy day at the psycologists office.
    It will happen, but it will happen slowly and in a cost effective manner.

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    The main reason I like metric is the simplification of working with it. No fractions, factors of 10, etc. But unfortunately, here in the US, it is hard to completely use metric. The materials are often in english fractions, McMaster Carr list material sizes in english fractions, and my machines, tooling, and measuring instruments are English.

    I also hate all of the conversions that have to be used just in front of the machine. Decimal, number, letter, fractions.... just to drill a hole. How dumb. I also hate the 40 tpi on micrometers. ....so I need .097" on the micrometer but I'm looking at a 22 on the dial. Great!

    I would prefer metric but find it difficult to do, although I am trying.

    Here is an interesting web site. http://www.metric4us.com/

    Fractions are a real pain. Do full metric people even mention "1/4 millimeter"? Or do they say "point two five mm"?

    I'm not even teaching my kids fractions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    c: That is a coincident and typically not true for most measurements. Just as 1 liter of milk isn't 1 kg. Though it is correct that 1L is 1000cc always.
    It's not a coincident that 1 liter of water has a mass of 1 kilo. That was the basis for the mass/weight portion of the metric system.


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