What's new
What's new

Would you buy a high-end American-made machine tool?

Billiam

Aluminum
Joined
Dec 15, 2008
Location
Orange, CA
Big names like Mori Seiki, Okuma, and DMG have zero competition from the US. Would it even be possible for a high-end American MTB to emerge?

If you had $300K to spend on a machine, would you consider an offering from a brand new American company that could go head to head with a Mori? Assume similar warranties, nearby service centers, etc.
 
Big names like Mori Seiki, Okuma, and DMG have zero competition from the US. Would it even be possible for a high-end American MTB to emerge?

If you had $300K to spend on a machine, would you consider an offering from a brand new American company that could go head to head with a Mori? Assume similar warranties, nearby service centers, etc.

The American machine would need to have features beyond that of the others you listed or it's not worth taking the risk. Unless the American machine was innovative in some way I'd rather get a machine with a reputation.

So sad that America used to put out top of the line machines and we don't anymore. I'd love to have an all american machine shop.
 
The biggest issue with starting a new American machine tool builder, is that the market for machine tools in the US is a mature market, that is the existing builders can supply the market with the needed machine tools in a timely manner. So the only way a new company would pick up customers would be to take them from an existing builder. The existing builder has the experience building hundreds if not thousands of machine that a new builder could not draw on. This would make it very hard to break into this market.
 
Interesting topic

I would not be buying anything. My boss though has purchased Haas and Hardinge and likes American made. I often wonder what has lead to this state of affairs for our country and this has happened over 40 years or so. I recall it was a japanese machine tool which could make the special silent propellers for our neuclear subs for example. The outfit who made the machines sold them to Russia which gave them a way to just start making them. In WW 2 when our manufacturing got in line to support the war we managed to turn out incredible amounts of war supplies,ships,subs,planes,and tanks. This helped us win and that is a fact but now we have to buy most of our machine tools from other countries and they lead us in technology I would guess or perhaps we gave it to them. I think when the boss buys his next machine he will probably shop CNC's made in other countries though.For anyone he buys from there must be support maybe Haas will fill those shoes for the cnc's you are refering to.
 
High end "made in U.S.A."

Back in the day you could, most of the current "made in U.S.A." are owned by offshore companies for a reason, it is not a real porfitable place to put your money. Not only is it not profitable but the R.O.I. sucks as well.
Machine tool companies, unfortunatly, are real small patatoes when it comes to global operations and a little too blue collar for for Washington to care about, we do not even have an "industrial" policy making it almost imposible to compete with industries targeted by national "industrial policies" of offshore nations.
I hear in Germany they still have a massive trade school system along with a budget surplus, you can do the math on China.
You pay a lot less taxes on short term gains on Wall street, why in the world would you waist your time on something that actually requires comitment and organized support from your country.
Do like everyone else, put your 300K on Apple or Intel, your making money tomorrow.

Landm1
 
Well, Mazak has a plant in the USA that at least makes the nexus series(anything else they do there?) But they are the largest cnc manufacturer. I doubt very many other large known cnc manufacturers from say Japan could just come to the US and build a plant and have it be economically worth doing.
Haas seems to do well also even if in a different market/league somewhat. So I guess the economics of it are somehow working out for them at least.

It would be pretty well impossible for a new company to emerge, from scratch, in the USA, to build cnc's for the regular market. Maybe as mentioned if they came up with some new crazy thing that was economically possible, but wouldn't be easy. Not talking 1 off specialty machines. I doubt your government would give much financial backing. So who would invest? probably not very many people... Perhaps for the same reason that all the old manufacturers that were so good, are gone.
 
I dont agree.
Haas started out by selling rotary tables he made in his garage, out of the trunk of his car.
No Wall Street investments, no financial backing.

Simply a better mousetrap, and a small nimble company.

Now, by number of machines made, Haas is the largest machine tool manufacturer in the world. He picked a niche that was, in his opinion, underserved by the existing manufacturers, and he built a market in it. And he did it in a high tax, high real estate cost, high wage state, with the strictest pollution and workers comp regulations in the country- exactly what conventional wisdom says is losing our jobs to the Chinese. Riddle me that one, Riddler.

There is no reason the same thing could not be done today- its a matter of the right guy, or guys, or even girls- hardheaded, willing to work like a dog, and smart.

Every year, companies in the USA defy the Eeyore logic that you cant do it, and start businesses that change things.

Apple was obviously doomed from the very start- and no one gave it six months once IBM jumped in with the IBM PC.

Conventional Wisdom is just that- Conventional.

The guys who have built american industry, from Carnegie and Whitney to Henry Ford to Hewlett and Packard to Jobs and Woz to Gates, and yes, Gene Haas, all ignored conventional wisdom, and just did it.

Most of the development of the laser was done here.
Even though the Swedes invented it, plasma cutting was commercialized by US companies.
Chip Fab equipment was invented by, developed into a commercial product, and still sold by mostly US companies.
Hydroforming is still a big US industry, although I believe the Germans are pretty heavy into it as well.
Although the Germans invented fluidized bed coating, powdercoating as we know it today is basically a US invention, and a lot of the machinery is made here and exported.
Extrusion Honing is another recent US invention, and a whole new class of machinery that is being made here.
Rapid Prototyping, which will be a huge "machine tool" industry in the next 30 years or so, was mostly developed in the USA.
Flow, which perfected and commercialized waterjet cutting, is another recent US company that defied your conventional wisdom and built a brand new category of machine tools from scratch.

What the USA CANT do is make cheaper cast iron hand assembled manual machine tools, using 100 year old tech, than the chinese can.

But there is no reason whatsoever that there will not be new US Companies not only making existing machine tools, but continuing to invent entire new categories of machines and markets for them.
 
My boss though has purchased Haas and Hardinge and likes American made.

News Flash! Hardinge merely assembles some of it's products in the US.

I doubt there could be a new player in the US machine tool market to compete with the reputable overseas manufacturers. I guess you either love or hate Haas, so even if they set out and focused on making a super high precision tool, like a Mitsui Seiki, they would have to overcome that love/hate reputation. A tall task in my opinion.
 
Very Very good argument, don't forget that as the value of our currency declines, we will have an advantage and local companies can change and adapt quicker. Don't bet that we need to take a back seat to anyone, but Ford did not have to contend with government bureaucracy like now. Remember what made Ford great, quality at a resonable price as he produced more he kept dropping the price. Others made a better car, especially Leland, but Ford built a quality product for the average family, farmer etc. that people could afford. Hass is for sure on the right track but.... get to the quality level of the Mori and no one could touch them. For sure I would pay extra for a good quality American Machine, but if percision is the name of the game we are all going to look at Japan and Germany.
 
Ingersoll machine tool is owned by Italians. They are currently building a bigger machine than I ever saw built there when it was owned by Edson Gaylord. The components are being welded together and machined in Rockford. I guess someone is buying 'american made' high end machines.
 
Well, Mazak has a plant in the USA that at least makes the nexus series(anything else they do there?)

I like that little plate with the horse that says "The other thorough bred from Kentucky". I haven't been there in over 2 years, but that place is fricken cool. They don't make the very cool stuff there, but they use the cool stuff.

An American made high end machine, I'd buy it if I needed it. But... as has already been said, "high end" directly translates into "reputation". A new company and machine isn't going to be "high end" until it gets the "reputation" of "high end".
 
Qualitymachinetools, I remember a few years ago you had a thread about trying to build a manual lathe here in the states. What ever happened on that front?
Zoom
 
Zoom,
I am Still working on it, getting a little further, but been so busy with everything else, really have not put a lot of time into it recently.

I need to get to the point where I do not need to be here every day, so I can have some more time for that project.

Its surprising though, I have learned a LOT and realize that I'd have to make most things in house to be competitive. (not a problem at all)
Not bearings and things like that, but gears, shafts, etc.

There was a part I'd get made which I have figured to take 1 hour of time (generous time)

It is identical to a part that I used to have made in quantities of 1000 at a place I used to work, except for one small difference, it was a very, very similar part except a little different on dimensions.

They were paying $400 for each subbing them out, material is about $30 plus hardening, batch of 1000 was about $2000 for hardening, so $2 each.

If I made them in house, could do it for less than $100 each part.

I am learning a lot from the Chinese though as far as manufacturing, as soon as I get some time, we will be in business with that project.
I have looked over some drawings that I found from some old american machine tools too. When parts like handles had a tolerance on them of +/-
.0005", well I can see why they went so high in price. Everything has to be practical, a .0005 tolerance to a .005 tolerance can mean a difference from $1 to $20 a part.

Anyway, yes I did not forget, I just have to find the time to continue, I spend time doing now what pays the bills!
 
And that right there is the problem with trying to build a new product, if you don't have the infrastructure already in place to do it all(or most of it anyway). We're not talking little $20 widgets. We're talking trying to put together a machine for a market price of around $300K, that needs to be "High end" and you need to be profitable at it, so ideally it doesn't cost you $500K to make it(but the first few are gonna cost a LOT more than that in reality, likely well over a million)

From the initial post it isn't even a "beyond anything else already on the market" machine, just a regular machine in the 300K range with a USA sticker on it. Should all the parts for it be made in the USA? hopefully most of it. How many sources in the USA are left that are able to properly machine all the parts for CNC equipment, large castings and such, and are used to it enough that they can do it very economically on a low quantity order? Are they going to charge you $200/hr for 5hrs, of are they going to quote you 10K take it or go elsewhere? cause there's a LOT of that and sometimes you have no choice but to pay the crazy price. Good luck getting a deal on your controllers, motors, and such things you can't manufacture, if you're only buying a few of them.

Your market may be 10-50 unlikely 100units a year considering all the competition already in place with a name backing it. I have no doubt at all that many of the High End manufacturers have made certain models in their history, which have sold in low quantities that they quite likely never have broken even on, or certainly wouldn't have if they didn't have all the manufacturing equipment already in place making the bread and butter $$. Some of them can write it off to R&D and that is that, maybe it'll get recycled into something else in 10-20years and pay off then... Imagine how much $ was put into linear motors to apply it to cnc's, before it might have started to pay off for someone? And sometimes its on models that they may only sell what 5 of a year. Car manufacturers sure have made such models.

So, ok maybe you start like HAAS and in 20-50years you've accumulated enough equipment, capital, contacts, slowly making your way up and you can now do your dream project. You can afford to do it!!!. Sure it happens, that's how most companies have been made. And over time there will always be more of such companies, all over the world. I mean HAAS could probably even build a good high end machine now using their resources, put it under a new fresh name if they want to form a new reputation for that line, hope it sells and is worth the investment, and survive in the event if wasn't. But who else in the USA right now can? or will it take another 20-50yrs? ( I won't be buying machines by then :) )

BUT if today you decided that you will make in the USA a machine to compete with the already established manufacturers, forget about having built a company for the last 30yrs with a few billion in capital. You start TODAY, and maybe you want that product done in 5years(engineering, testing, etc). HOW would you ever get the $$$ to set up the infrastructure from scratch? we've already established that having it all outsourced isn't likely to be cost effective, and if you did you'd likely be stuck going to the exact same sources as everyone else who doesn't have the infrastructure is already using, in Taiwan and china. Hardinge seems to tell that story pretty well. And if it is so easy, how come NONE of the used to be high end manufacturers who had the infrastructure, didn't even manage to adapt? what happened? It was all there. Maybe the imports got better? nobody stopped them from coming in, US machines got pushed out like car manufacturers are going now? I just bought a new car, its made in Japan, it offered more than I could find in anything else. Sure would be ideal if the competition just vanished, but its not going to happen.

When I look at a cnc machine say in the 100-300K range. I actually think that many of them are very low priced in regards to how much of a machine you get. How much engineering, how many components each had to be made, assembled, handled, shipped, etc. You need to produce a heck of a lot of them to be able to sell a 4020 size VMC in the low $100k's(if not under a 100K) and make $ on it. I've seen way more than a 100K go into a part a person could lift, and everyone hoping it was gonna work in the end...
 
Ingersoll machine tool is owned by Italians. They are currently building a bigger machine than I ever saw built there when it was owned by Edson Gaylord. The components are being welded together and machined in Rockford. I guess someone is buying 'american made' high end machines.


The Chinese CNC company Dalian bought two divisions from Ingersoll in 2002 and 2003, the "production systems and CM systems". I was afraid the Large machine division was bought by the chinese.
 
I stumbled upon this old thread while looking for new equipment... I see Mori stating that they are now US built! Anybody have any info on the new US made machines?
I remember back when HAAS started hitting the market you could but one of their mills for half the price of another brand. Therefore justifying some details like slower rapids, slower cycle time, a little loss of rigidity... Etc. what many of us found out was that a HAAS mill would make a majority of our parts, and make us a profit at the same time. That is what we need today. But we need to make that product lightning fast and super accurate to beat the competition today. "The new HAAS" is upping its price to be more in line with what many would call a premium machine, taking away the "haas advantage"
Any new info on what machines are built in the US? Not just the name, but BUILT here by our workers! If we have a US option that is reasonably close in price more people would take it.
 
many american companies that make cnc machines buy castings and metal like steel already cut to length +/-0.020".
.
foundry casting because of epa requirements caused many small foundries to close. Why would an american company by castings made in tiawan? because they are cheaper i would think. sure they machine the castings and the pieces of steel in the usa but is it truly american made ??
 
I stumbled upon this old thread while looking for new equipment... I see Mori stating that they are now US built! Anybody have any info on the new US made machines?
I remember back when HAAS started hitting the market you could but one of their mills for half the price of another brand. Therefore justifying some details like slower rapids, slower cycle time, a little loss of rigidity... Etc. what many of us found out was that a HAAS mill would make a majority of our parts, and make us a profit at the same time. That is what we need today. But we need to make that product lightning fast and super accurate to beat the competition today. "The new HAAS" is upping its price to be more in line with what many would call a premium machine, taking away the "haas advantage"
Any new info on what machines are built in the US? Not just the name, but BUILT here by our workers! If we have a US option that is reasonably close in price more people would take it.

Shop down the street from us just got 2 NHX4000 Horizontals. The factory in Davis CA makes the NHX4000/5000 and one other machine that I don't recall off the top of my head. We were looking to buy one but got a screaming deal on an NH5000 that they had in stock. I'm trying to take a few days off to tour their factory and I'll post a thread if I do. I would buy one over a Haas any day. The "X" series is talked about in the Mori section of this forum.
 
many american companies that make cnc machines buy castings and metal like steel already cut to length +/-0.020".
.
foundry casting because of epa requirements caused many small foundries to close. Why would an american company by castings made in tiawan? because they are cheaper i would think. sure they machine the castings and the pieces of steel in the usa but is it truly american made ??
I would expect the casting to be done outside the US... But that is just a small percentage of the work. Yes, a large chunk of the machine, but how that casting is finished will have a lot to do with the quality of the machine. I feel that is a little different than what we see with Chen Jou machine USA.
 








 
Back
Top