not rfq, but smallish turned part ...

I've noticed several small shops looking for work, etc etc. Go here :

http://www.nrhsperformance.com/partsignition.shtml

At the bottom of the page is a cup-shaped timing rotor. The originals are stampings, they always break. Junk design. When they break it leaves people stranded in the middle of nowehere with no sparks. These are probably made in Botswana for $6 and resold for $50. If a small shop needs some products, old Harley parts are a good place to start.

looks like some already has that one covered
just about enough market for one supplier

72bwhite said:

looks like some already has that one covered
just about enough market for one supplier

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It's called competition I figger if you can't make enough selling a $10 part for less than $50, then maybe should not own a machine shop ...

The thing is, many people running elderly Harleys are sick to death of crap Taiwanese repops. The stuff from Taiwan Ted is junk. Put up a site with photos of your machines, a paper trail of materials and heat treat, an address and phone number in the US so that people can believe what you say, and you're going to get business.

There's a lot of parts. All small runs but hey, small shop, fillin time, sell direct and instead of the importer buying for $10 and selling for $50, it costs you $15 and you charge $30. I have several friends who started out making stuff for themselves and ended up with small but viable businesses. When I see guys here looking for work, well ... not going to get rich but better than sitting at the desk twiddling your thumbs.

SeaMoss said:

It's called competition I figger if you can't make enough selling a $10 part for less than $50, then maybe should not own a machine shop ...

The thing is, many people running elderly Harleys are sick to death of crap Taiwanese repops. The stuff from Taiwan Ted is junk. Put up a site with photos of your machines, a paper trail of materials and heat treat, an address and phone number in the US so that people can believe what you say, and you're going to get business.

There's a lot of parts. All small runs but hey, small shop, fillin time, sell direct and instead of the importer buying for $10 and selling for $50, it costs you $15 and you charge $30. I have several friends who started out making stuff for themselves and ended up with small but viable businesses. When I see guys here looking for work, well ... not going to get rich but better than sitting at the desk twiddling your thumbs.

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$10 part for $50? There is a lot more to it than that. I don't know the market for Harley parts and when I used to ride I owned Japanese Sportsbikes. I do have experience in the manufacture and sale of automobile aftermarket parts. Mine were my own design dual alternator kits (hence my screen name). I designed my products and manufactured them which in automobile aftermarket can be quite involved which would be similar to the motorcycle market. The more items you can produce the better chance of success.

First if you are going to design, manufacture and sell direct to the consumer to keep all the profits you will need access to vehicles. Someone giving you a part to copy is a road to ruin, you have no idea of tolerances, or even if that part fit properly in the first place. Fortunately I sold mostly to limousine manufacturers which used newer vehicles. To expand my coverage to fit more vehicles I either had to rent vehicles or offer a free kit and install to someone that needed one. That is an expense that is factored into the price, also some items don't sell well that leads to wasted time and money and the first run of 50 units collecting dust on the shelves.

Direct marketing to motorcyclists would even be a lot more involved than what I did. At the time I could easily go out and rent a 2006 Chrysler 300 for a couple days. Where would a machine shop get a hold of a 1990 Harley 883 Sportster? I believe the answer would be they would have to partner with someone with easy access to motorcycles, like a motorcycle repair shop. Moral of the story there has to a lot of hands taking a slice of the pie selling older model aftermarket parts for motorcycles and cars if you do it right. Those Taiwanese parts everyone complains about are just copies of a sample, they were not designed from a fitting to an actual bike. Doing it right will increase the cost quite a bit, not lower it.

I've been riding for over 35 years now and I have yet to see a stamped timing rotor come apart. I'm not saying it doesn't on some whacked out high performance engines (although I have a hard time understanding where the force comes from that would tear one apart) but I have to think that it is still fairly rare. What I'm saying is that if there was more need/volume for producing a "machined" replacement, the price would surely come down as more manufacturers produced the part (very simple design).

FWIW

-Ron

MetalCarnage said:

I've been riding for over 35 years now and I have yet to see a stamped timing rotor come apart.

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Ask and ye shall receive :



Google a bit, this failure is common on late-model iron Sportsters. Plus there's a bunch of other parts people could make, if they wanted.

Dualkit said:

$10 part for $50? There is a lot more to it than that.

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Good thing I didn't know that when I developed a few parts that ended up making me a supplier to HD. If I'da known how hard it was I'da never done it

It was just a suggestion, if you guys like sitting on your asses that's fine by me. I put in my time.

I see stuff that could be made and improved all the time. Lots of guys out there filling the beer fridge by making and improving on something, that big OEM made to a price point. It's great garage work, or fill in stuff to keep a spindle turning.

The problem is marketing, and selling. What always talks me down off the ledge is that part. I could make something for $10-$20, sell for $40-$50, and do alright, but I'd spend $20 in time, and resources trying to find a market. That's the part I'm terrible at, and why I actually have a bit of respect for middle men, and distributors (I said a bit.... )

I've dealt with individual people selling sub $50 items before when I used to part out motorcycles to support my racing addiction.... I can't think of a worse job for my personality type. I remember driving a half hour to meet somebody for a $20 part (I used it as an excuse to go to bass pro which was nearby), when they tried to lowball me for $10 after agreeing to pay $20 I tossed it in the garbage and said here, you can have it for free.

I've got a couple products that I'd like to develop more, and bring to market. I think I'd do ok with them, and would be a nice supplementary income, but I always think back to that parking lot, and how much I hate selling things and dealing with Joe q public. It's probably my greatest weakness.

SeaMoss said:

Ask and ye shall receive :

Google a bit, this failure is common on late-model iron Sportsters. Plus there's a bunch of other parts people could make, if they wanted.


Good thing I didn't know that when I developed a few parts that ended up making me a supplier to HD. If I'da known how hard it was I'da never done it

It was just a suggestion, if you guys like sitting on your asses that's fine by me. I put in my time.

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Thanks for posting that. Something new learned today! I still don't quite understand where the stresses would come from to cause that failure. Is this failure more prevalent with the iron Sportsters? (I've never had or rebuilt a Sportster. FWIW)

BTW, that would suck.

-Ron

D Dubeau said:

The problem is marketing, and selling. That's the part I'm terrible at, and why I actually have a bit of respect for middle men, and distributors (I said a bit.... )

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That's understandable but the nasty fact is, if you make something for a reseller for $10, he'll be selling it for $30 or more. So you design the part, buy the steel, turn and mill and heat treat and grind and measure the part for $10. He puts it in a box and takes it to UPS for $20.

If you are doing okay at that and you are happy, cool. I was unhappy and undercapitalized. Going C.O.D. and retail helped a whole bunch. That first time you get $50 for a part instead of $15 is a warm and fuzzy feeling which goes a long way to help forget how annoying them customers are

MetalCarnage said:

I still don't quite understand where the stresses would come from to cause that failure. Is this failure more prevalent with the iron Sportsters?

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Apparently the original HD part was more reliable but the available replacements break. Since these are all fifty years old, originals are getting scarce. Quite a few parts like that. And some of the bigname suppliers have been busted selling underbuilt crap recently. Crankpins where the threads are through-hard and snap off, for instance. Big famous name in HD-land. Apparently the iron Sports are too few for them to care about ... so if you have a shop and open time, why not ?

Wouldn't make sense to start a business doing this, I agree.

BTW, that would suck.

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Time to call the friend with a pickup

I see where you are coming from on this but I think I see why there is so much resistance to having someone produce this particular part at a "reasonable" price. The first thing that comes to mind is that the production of this part is already optimized. The design, stresses, materials, etc. all pretty much beg for a stamped steel unit. Machining this little unit would cause a huge increase in both time and material costs to the point where your average consumer won't be willing to pay for it. Your cheapest option is about $6.99 J&P Cycles(R) Ignition Rotor and Screw | 383-497 | J&P Cycles and one that appears better made in the pic anyway, from S&S, is about $14.00 S&S Cycle Ignition Rotor - 55-1247 Harley Motorcycle
- Dennis Kirk, Inc. No way, no how can a machined version at a retail level come close.

(This part is just how I see it so please bear with me) The other problem I see is that there really isn't a problem with the parts on the market today. It would seem that the real cause of the "failures" seen are due to improper installation of the timing cup. It is just a small metal "cup" that is bolted to the end of the crankshaft. It does not, when working properly, come in contact with anything else. It just spins with the crank. The only way I can see them being torn up is for the bolt holding the cup to come loose ie. it wasn't properly loctited, torqued, or the bolt holding it has been stressed/stretched out of spec. ( Now, thinking about it I suppose it may be possible, if the material used to make it was so outlandishly inconsistent, it might cause a little extra vibration that over time would lead to premature failure. I find that very unlikely as it would really have to be "extreme".)

All JMHO,

Regards,

-Ron

MetalCarnage said:

Now, thinking about it I suppose it may be possible, if the material used to make it was so outlandishly inconsistent, it might cause a little extra vibration that over time would lead to premature failure. I find that very unlikely as it would really have to be "extreme".

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I'm making a wild-assed guess that the vibration is extreme. Someone posted what happened and three people who work on these immediately posted back "timing cup failed." Sporties vibrate quite a lot to begin with, then this is on the #2 cam which is vibrating with the engine plus rattling back and forth as the cam follower goes over the top of the lobe, if you get some resonance going .... Cuz you're right, there's no obvious stress on it but they apparently break often, just like the photo.