Do Tools Fall Out The Spindle?

Do tools fall out of the spindle from time to time, or does this always indicate a problem?

I have a few month old 510CII that gets little use. About a month ago it half grabbed a facemill and spun it up to 11,000 RPM or so while the machine was shaking badly. It was the first tool change of the day, probably didn't run for a week or more prior. It was fairly close to making a cut and presumably throwing the facemill out of the spindle before I stopped it. Tool was new, pull stud new, everything was fine since, until minutes ago. I touched up some code on fixturing and went to put a quick chamfer on. It grabbed the tool, the ATC arm retracted, and about .1 second after that the tool fell out of the spindle just when it started ramping up to speed. Nice ding in the table and my snazzy new chamfer tool is shot.

Oddly enough, I had some time and decided to call Mazak about 15 minutes before this happened. I asked the guy about the facemill incident earlier, he said the machine can't sit for weeks and I should put tool changes into my warmup program. Supposedly the ATC hydraulic pump has a small reservoir and didn't have enough time to bring the pressure up properly after sitting. The facemill was the next tool in the belt on shutdown weeks prior, all the machine had to do after my warmup program was flip the arm around and take off, so presumably this <1 second of ATC operation wasn't sufficient. Understandable.

However, today the machine has been running for hours problem free, and was making chips and changing tools 30 seconds before it went to grab the chamfer cutter. It wasn't in the middle of a program, but is still a bad deal. I wanted to hear it from people who presumably are less biased, does this happen? The Mazak guy is calling me back soon, I'll see what he has to say then.

NO! I cannot express how absolutely unnacceptable that is.

That shouldn't happen. Ever. I don't think the little hydraulic unit would have anything to do with the tool falling out, unless he's saying it didn't properly open the collet, so the tool was never seated in the first place.

Ours threw a tool when it first showed up (it was purchased used). The grippers on the ATC arm were stuck. With the ATC arm just sitting in its normal position, I took a 2x4, about 3 feet long, put the end of it square on the finger, and then just pushed it in a few times. It freed up real nice. Then I did a tool change (with no tool), and did the same thing to the other side. Haven't had a problem since.

whether or not it should happen, sometimes shit does happen. I have seen what you describe on other makes, and yes even an old mazak we have does not always complete tool changes but almost inevitably something IS wrong when it happens. So the answer is it ain't happy with something but it may be a PITA to find out what.

I didn't think tools should be falling out. The machine had single digit spindle hours when the face mill didn't fully seat. Probably 50 hours or so on it now when the other tool fell. It's sitting idle while I wait for the return call. I was trying to make some little bits that needed to get off to anodizing, they have a bunch of tool changes, so I'm a bit concerned.

The real parts it was purchased to make were never run on it yet, so all I have been using it for is small stuff and just getting used to it. Looks like I might have to pound on it for a week to make sure everything works properly.

What concerned me a bit is how concerned the guy was that the machine sits. He said the machine would 'last a lot longer' if we used it, even 20 minutes or so, every other day. He didn't sound concerned the facemill wasn't grabbed fully, but strongly suggested we will have problems with batteries dying and things rusting if it sits for weeks at a time.

A different guy called me back, said this is "honestly very dangerous, someone could get killed", and advised me not to use the machine. They're sending a tech out some time. I really could use these parts within a few days...

Did you put the the tool in correctly in the Magazine? Check the air pressure, and how big is your face mill? because defend on the dia of the the tools you shouldnt run it at 11000 rpm. it will throw the tool out the spindle!

The tools are in the magazine the way the picture next to the magazine shows, I'm positive of that. The drills are away from the tang, or towards the door when in the spindle. I check the air pressure every time I turn the machine on, but from what I hear its hydraulic and air is not required aside from cleaning the taper. The machine has a 1/2" line with 130-150 PSI and a big tank right next to it. The regulator has always been rock solid on the 0.5MPa line on its regulator, at least when the spindle mist is running. It goes a touch higher when its off. Its a little 2" Sandvik facemill that says 18,xxx RPM max on the side. I've been running it .150 deep in C110 full width and it provides a great finish. It appears to be happy zinging along at dumb high SFPM, and it didn't fall out of the spindle. I was spinning it up and down trying to figure out why the machine was rattling so bad. I stopped it, grabbed the tool to spin it around, and it wiggled in the taper. When I went to release it, it fell out almost instantly, whereas it normally takes something like .2 seconds. It clearly didn't grab the pull stud low enough to pull it fully up. Everything looked fine, the spindle looked clean, and it has had hundreds of tool changes since problem free. I used that facemill quite a bit since. That is until earlier today. It was a different tool that fell out. A barely used Sandvik ER16 collet chuck, probably in the spindle 10 times. Fresh Mazak pullstud torqued to the spec the Sandvik guy gave me and everything. The one that fell out of the spindle had no chance, it just fell straight out. The spindle barely started spinning up before the thing fell. It wasn't thrown, it just fell down and banged around the machine. I think it was shooting for 4500RPM or so, it didn't make it to 1K before I bumped the ESTOP, after it fell out. Luckily it wasn't 'that' expensive of a tool and just a cheapie holder. The pull stud was a little scuffed on the edges on the one that fell out of the spindle too. The facemill one still has the black oxide intact. The dings in the table will be covered up with a fixture plate anyways, but I'm not all that excited about it.

I assumed the Mazak service guy would try and downplay it a bit and act like it's probably my fault. Apparently I answered his questions satisfactory, since he appeared to be genuinely quite concerned and told me a few times to just shut the machine down and they would 'rush' a guy out. It sounds like this should not, and does not happen terribly often. Most people likely would have had this happen a few days after installation, but we barely used it yet.

That is completely unacceptable... was this a VCN 510c-II or a VCN530C-II?
This is now a big concern to me seeing we had two installed a couple weeks ago...
Not sure fully what to think besides I really hope you get it fixed and it doesn't happen on one of ours, however I have never heard of this problem on a Mazak before...

VCN 510C-II

Like I said, the guy on the phone sounded really concerned. I don't think this happens often.

I sure hope this gets resolved to my satisfaction. I'm not sure if thats possible just yet. I intended on running it for hours straight without looking at it. I guess I will throw breakage detection on every tool to minimize potential issues.

47_Waffles said:

VCN 510C-II

Like I said, the guy on the phone sounded really concerned. I don't think this happens often.

I sure hope this gets resolved to my satisfaction. I'm not sure if thats possible just yet. I intended on running it for hours straight without looking at it. I guess I will throw breakage detection on every tool to minimize potential issues.

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It's definitely not normal or something you should typically have to think about. Did you buy this machine brand new?

Yes.

I'm an Engineer, not a machinist. I happened to be pushed into machining when my requests were becoming expensive, slowly executed, and pissing off our machinist. I don't have a whole lot of experience, so I've been asking a lot of questions and we got things set up right. My Sandvik rep says he never knew a shop that torques the collet nuts. We barely need the machine, but we had issues finding a machinist that cared enough to get things done how we wanted. We are after surface finish and uniformity, and with my lack of experience, new was the way to go. The idea was we would avoid issues. I'm sure we could get it done with a 20 year old Fadal and manual finishing like our previous machinist did, but I wouldn't be confident knowing when its the machine or myself at fault. Plus, manual finishing sucks.

I attempted to blame myself. The Mazak guy claims I'm doing everything right.

Anyone have a strong opinion on having the machine being used a few days a month? The first guy I talked to wasn't happy about that. We might have to get another 510C and turn into a job shop so we have one in working condition at all times. I'm not big on the idea of powering it up every other day just to run a warmup program and shut it down.

Did this ever get sorted out?

I know it's not a Mazak, buy my shops Okuma MB-56 has a weird quirk, if the door is almost all the way closed, but not that last .01 or so, it will start to do a tool change, then alarm out, just as it releases the pull stud. Happens about one a month...

Dropping tools on a new machine is completely abnormal. In fact dropping tools on old machines is pretty rare for us. We've had no less than 30 CNC mills over the last 20 years. With the exception of 1 machine (which was old and worn out) I can count on one hand how many dropped tools we've had. Definitely need to make sure Mazak takes care of this for you. FYI our 510c has never dropped a tool in 6 years of operation.

I don't own a Mazak but will be following this.
I've seen more "stuck" tools than dropped.
The only dropped tool I've seen was when I did a manual release before taking hold of the tool in the spindle.

47_Waffles said:

Yes.

I'm an Engineer, not a machinist. I happened to be pushed into machining when my requests were becoming expensive, slowly executed, and pissing off our machinist. I don't have a whole lot of experience, so I've been asking a lot of questions and we got things set up right. My Sandvik rep says he never knew a shop that torques the collet nuts. We barely need the machine, but we had issues finding a machinist that cared enough to get things done how we wanted. We are after surface finish and uniformity, and with my lack of experience, new was the way to go. The idea was we would avoid issues. I'm sure we could get it done with a 20 year old Fadal and manual finishing like our previous machinist did, but I wouldn't be confident knowing when its the machine or myself at fault. Plus, manual finishing sucks.

I attempted to blame myself. The Mazak guy claims I'm doing everything right.

Anyone have a strong opinion on having the machine being used a few days a month? The first guy I talked to wasn't happy about that. We might have to get another 510C and turn into a job shop so we have one in working condition at all times. I'm not big on the idea of powering it up every other day just to run a warmup program and shut it down.

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If you power it up once a week and let it run for a few hours, that should be good enough.

Stick your camera phone under the spindle when there's no tool in it, and post a picture of it clamped, and unclamped. You might have broken something on that initial facemill problem.

Anyone have experience with Mazak service? Is everyones machine broke right now or something? So far they told me they would call me right back to schedule service three times, and it didn't happen yet. It's not that they didn't show up, they didn't even schedule the service, and they can't tell me what time they will be able to schedule the service. Should I be calling them back when they fail to do what they claim, or am I just being unrealistic. They told me someone would call me this morning, and its about 2 hours past a loose definition of 'morning' in KY. I'm generally quite patient, they keep making promises they don't keep. All I ask for is realistic time frames so I can plan accordingly.

I powered the machine up to clean up a bit and be nice to the service guy. I didn't attempt a tool change, but manually inserting a tool feels the same as when it was delivered. The fingers on the arm move fine. I don't see any obvious problems internally. A small shaving did come out of the spindle that was black on one side, sure looks like it matches up with the pull stud that got scraped up a bit when it fell. Is there supposed to be some sort of switch that detects a tool is in the spindle? It feels like there could might be, but the machine didn't care when it wasn't fully seated, and didn't say anything when it fell out. I did hit the E STOP quick the second time, so it could just be not terribly sensitive and slow.

Is there any good way to get a tool out of the machine from the side, and not the spindle? They're really in there, and I'm not about to go pry them out.

December is a terrible time to get service (or rigging) from anybody. Mountains of machines going in that have to be in by Dec 31st. Just keep bugging them. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.

The tools pop right out of the side. Did you get a little red metal lunchbox with the machine? It should have a black piece of steel, about 1x6x.1875, that's bent up at one end. This is the little pry bar for popping the tools out of the drum in the back.

I have never heard of a Mazak mill "dropping" tools. Definitely a problem there. I have however had an Integrex throw a 2" inserted drill at me due to a worn out arm on the tool changer.