Magic Code for new machines

About a year or so ago there was a thread about Mazak Starting to charge buyers a fee for technical support for any used equipment purchased. There was such a uproar about this that they decided to suspend that policy. However they apparently decided to take a different measure to get this fee.

We just got in a new Mazak Nexus 350M. Since Mazak couldn't get here to install it for a few days, I decided to set it up myself so we can start making money. Powered it up and got an "RD Battery not mounted" alarm. What the hell is that? So I called Mazak and 6 hours later they called me back to tell me the new machines now requires a "Magic Code" to be entered and only a Mazak Service Tech can put in this code. They said that if the machine is moved that it automatically shuts the machine down and you will have to call a service guy to come back out to put in the code. So I asked them, if I decided to move the machine in my own facilty I will have to call a service guy? Answer---Yes, and if you sale the machine to Joe Blow then he will have to a pay $2500 for a guy to come out and put in the code. Mazak states the following:

THIS MACHINE IS EQUIPPED WITH A RELOCATION DETECTOR IS A PERMANENT BATTERY OPERATED DEVICE THAT RESIDES IN THE ELECTRICAL CABINET OF THE MACHINE. THIS DEVICE IS STANDARD FOR ALL MAZAK MACHINES AS AN EXPORT COMPLIANCE MEASURE TO PREVENT ILLEGAL TRANSFERS AND MISAPPROPRIATIONS WITHOUT THE PROPER GOVERNMENTAL AUTHORIZATION. THE DEVICE WILL SIGNAL AN ALARM AND COMPLETELY SHUT DOWN THE MACHINE UPON ANY REPOSITIONING AND/OR RELOCATION OF THE MACHINE. MAZAK REQUESTS THAT YOU CONTACT THE LOCAL MAZAK EPRESENTATIVE PRIOR TO ANY REPOSITIONING AND/OR RELOCATION OF THE MACHINE. THE MAZAK
REPRESENTATIVE WILL VERIFY THE LOCATION OF THE MACHINE ACCORDING TO THE PROPER EXPORT ADMINISTRATION GUIDELINES AND ISSUE A NEW PASSWORD TO INITIATE STARTUP OF THE MACHINE.

To me, this is just another scam to make money on used equipment. If they are so concerned about protecting themselves from getting into trouble for exporting the equipment to countries where they are not suppose to be, then why dont the just have the buyer sign a waiver stating that they will not export the machine out of the country.

Any thoughts............

Scam,,.... No, it's not.... Gouging?.... Maybe.

As a matter of fact, several International governing bodies are and have been in process of legislating the mandatory requirement for this (or any similar type control) to control exporting. It's all stemming from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Act (US) and similar international policies. Mazak is merely implementing before the requirement takes place. BTW... Mazak is not the only one in the technology industry to have such instruments in place. Just one of the first in the machining industry (with their popularity) to have them in place.

then why dont the just have the buyer sign a waiver stating that they will not export the machine out of the country.

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Because that doesn't work. Besides, even if YOU signed it, doesn't mean that guy you sold it to won't. Some type of "permanent" device is what the organizations are implementing now. Soon, you will see similar devices on many new machines.

I've already heard of some who have illegally exported to Mexico and now have machines that won't run. Government is interested on the "why's" of those.

You should be able to negotiate the cost or get rid of it if you're only moving within your shop or a new facility you own. The $2500 comes as part of the "Transfer of Ownership" type thing. Not agreeing with it... just stating...

So how long until someone figures out how to hack around it? Is this a motion sensor, or a tilt sensor, or a GPS sensor, or a power disconnect sensor, or what? How is it integrated into the control to prevent removal?

Forgive me for being skeptical, it just seems that every computer security measure gets compromised eventually.

I don't blame Mazak, look what happened to Mitutoyo in Japan, barred from exporting for 3 years, or something like that.

I think it was on the other board, there was a guy from Pakistan that had managed to get his hands on 4 Mazaks, every bit of software was wiped from them when he got them. Mazak wouldn't even consider talking to him since he was in Pakistan. Woops?

The device is a little black box about 3" x 4" and has a small circuit board and a couple of batteries. When the machine is tilted 6 degrees or more, it breaks the signal to the machine and has to be reset with a code. It only took a couple of days for Hackers to figure out the IPhone......So, my thoughts it wouldnt take much to hack it.

I heard about Mitutoyo as well, but thought Mitutoyo directly sold to a country they were not suppose to. I understand what they are trying to prevent, and I am all for making the world a safer place, but it would seem to me once the manufacturers sold the product to an end user then the monkey would be off of their back. I really dont see how the government can hold the manufacturer liable for the transfer of a product after it has been sold or require them to a install a "permanent measure" on all types of products that can be used to manufacture weapons of mass destruction? Are desktop computers next?

My biggest complaint, is I still have a machine that has been sitting on my floor 5 days just waiting for a code so it can be run. The installation guy is here today and has been waiting for 5 hours to get the code. As far as the Scam part, I feel the $2500 is a ripoff and has nothing really to do with making the world a safer place.

The scam cost.... I agree. Especially if you're the first user of the machine.

As for the box, I believe it actually has a few conditions that it needs to see before it trips. On top of angle, source power and some sort of timer as well. But you're right, if someone wants it bad enough, they'll figure it out. That's why "anything is possible if you put your mind to it".... good intentions or not. The point is to deterr it and attempt to eliminate the possibility. If you do nothing about it but know about it, you're condoning it (not necessarily my opinion, just as its viewed by policies).

Mitutoyo got busted not for a direct sale but through an intermediate who sold to Libya, however, they knew who the end-user was. Upon further investigation, it was found that they had many equipment sold to "illegal" end users and even had specific software available that could be set to confuse inspectors in the event a unit got stopped in transit.

but it would seem to me once the manufacturers sold the product to an end user then the monkey would be off of their back

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Sure. But to be extreme about this comment, we could tell Lockheed to sell missiles to North Korea and its OK. Maybe thats a stretch... How about if DuPont sold chemicals directly to Sudam and Iraq used it for chemical weapons? (which was investigated Not necessarily DuPont). According to the policy makers, its the same thing.

I really dont see how the government can hold the manufacturer liable for the transfer of a product after it has been sold or require them to a install a "permanent measure" on all types of products that can be used to manufacture weapons of mass destruction? Are desktop computers next?

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The key thing to remember is that it is not just the US government. It's many different nations adopting this. Traceability is the factor and as well, knowing where things are at any given time. "Permanent" units are only one of the possible solutions to accomplish this. And... some very high PCs are under this already.... along with some very high end hardware....

"I really dont see how the government can hold the manufacturer liable for the transfer of a product after it has been sold or require them to a install a "permanent measure" on all types of products that can be used to manufacture weapons of mass destruction? Are desktop computers next? "

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Uh, government can because it can get more people to agree it's necessary than you can get people to oppose the measure. That's the real politic.

There are a number of things that are under export restrictions from the US, and there have been arguments about rules like this for some time. The British were upset in the 1980s when IBM told customers that transfers of mainframes would be covered by US law, not British law, even though IBM UK sold the machine....

On the other hand, yes, somebody will defeat these things. And no, nobody wants to put up with this kind of hassle every time they move a machine. Which why I'll avoid machines with these devices like the plague.

The following is an exerpt from the Mazak website:

Mazak has decided to lead the industry in a new approach to insure any machine, which can be used, for potentially creating parts for sophisticated weapons is shipped and installed within the goals of the appropriate export laws. Therefore, beginning 2008, Mazak is adding a device called a relocation device to every machine shipped by any Mazak plant to any location throughout the world.

The following FAQ is designed to answer any questions you may have.

1. What is the relocation device, and how does it effect me?

The relocation device is a permanent device that resides in the electrical cabinet of the machine. This device is standard for all Mazak machines as an export compliance measure to prevent illegal transfers and misappropriations without the proper governmental authorization. The device will signal an alarm and completely shut down the machine upon any repositioning and/or relocation of the machine. A new password is required each time a machine is relocated to verify the location.

2. Is there a charge for this device - do I have to pay extra for it?

No! It is standard on every machine and prices have not been adjusted. Mazak is absorbing the cost in the interest of doing what is best for the world manufacturing community.

3. Do I have to pay a charge to get a new password if I relocate the machine?

No! It is a service provided by Mazak on a no charge basis.

4. How do I go about getting the unique code once the machine has been moved?

Mazak requests that you contact the local Mazak representative prior to any repositioning and/or relocation of the machine. The Mazak representative will verify the location of the machine to ensure the move is in compliance with export administration guidelines. At that time a new password to initiate startup of the machine will be issued. The Mazak location closest to you can be found on our website at www.mazakusa.com

5. Are new passwords required each time a machine is relocated?

Yes, because the new location must be verified by Mazak Service to obtain the new password.

6. Is this required for all Mazak machines?

Any new Mazak machine will be incorporated with this device without exception to insure any relocation is consistent with the appropriprate export laws.

7. Is the device going to be added to used machines?

No. It will only be included as new machines are shipped beginning January 2008.

8. Why are you doing this when in past years that was not required?

Machines have increasingly become more accurate and more sophisticated. Today, the global nature of trade allows goods to move more freely between countries. Export laws have become increasingly more complex by country, type of machine, machine accuracy’s, etc. Therefore, this will insure Mazak machines meet the guidelines of export regulations.

9. Will others in the industry follow this concept?

This is Mazak’s method to insure our machines are correctly relocated within the appropriate export guidelines. Each manufacturer will choose their own method of compliance

10. If I have any questions, please click her

The fact that they are charging $2500 for the reset should tell you what is really happening. Mazak is using national security hype to justify the installation of an ineffective device, the real purpose of which is to bilk legitimate customers.

"RD battery not mounted" ???

Does this mean the owner forks out another $2500 each time the battery goes dead?

Doug

re

Well, not that I was going to be buying a mazak soon, but make that never. Suggest all do the same.

3. Do I have to pay a charge to get a new password if I relocate the machine?

No! It is a service provided by Mazak on a no charge basis.

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Where is the $2500 charge coming from??

Mazak is simply looking for a revenue stream.

Their customer service and especially machine service have gotten progressively worse.

The days of Mazak producing a quality machine tool at a reasonable price while still providing good service are over.
The man in the corner office in Kentucky is the one responsible.

If you want to be treated terribly as a paying customer, buy a Mazak.

I for one will never buy a machine from Mazak that requries me to get a service person on site to adjust anything. Mazak makes fantastic machines, it's just that when they go hiccup it's very difficult to get a response for Mazak in a timely fashion unless your name is very popular and you buy millions of dollars worth of equipment from them.

If a person can't get them to show up with a machine under warranty, what makes you think they will show up for free when it's not under warranty? Besides, have you ever read the warranty?

Well that is nice to know, I'll pass it along to a company who is currently shopping for a cnc or 2.

"The Mazak representative will verify the location of the machine" To me this means they have to send someone to look in person that it is really there. So I guess it means password is free but the process of giving it to you is $2500??? and how long would it take each time?

I'd like to know where the $2500 came from? There is NO CHARGE to reset the password. They just have to physically verify the machine is still in the US.
This (or some form of it) will be forthcoming from every machine tool manufacturer, not just Mazak, in order to comply with the Govt mandates.

This is going to make things real damned difficult for the used machinery dealers. How do they propose dealing with the used machine market other that forcing everything to be sold by the OEM dealers?

I'm with Spencer... where's the $2500 charge from? What did your billing say? 2500 bucks is way more than the minimum service charge so I'd like to know what your billing says it is...

All of the high end machines (regardless of the builder) who has potential for export (either by corporate or private) will have some sort of "watch dog" system in place as a requirement. This is not a "Big Brother" thing with cameras in the bathroom. This allows Mazak (or any builder abiding by the requirments) to be able to answer to the Governments involved, where the machine equipment is located without having to do some sort of crazy census. For the time being, the database is sufficient to provide the answers to the governments. This is not a US only requirement. There are several countries involved with this act. If anything, Mazak and the like are being crippled by the government. Maybe all of this consumer energy should be targeted at them and not the builders that are being forced to keep track of where the end users decide to land the machines or who they sell it to or to what country. This is a Global economy. Any machine anywhere in the US has the oppurtunity to be sold and exported to a black list country. The government is forcing the factories and machine builders to be responsible of this. I guarantee you, if any government decides to make you the end user responsible for this, you won't like those charges.

The man in the corner office in Kentucky is the one responsible.

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Maybe partially, but he has a boss too. But somehow I don't think he came up with all of this. Japan has even more strict requirements and laws regarding this. Some companies are completely anal about it (Mazak isn't one of them). Others have "looser" policies (as noted by recent companies that are in trouble for it).

As far as not buying Mazak used or new? For used, I don't know of too many used machines newer than Jan. 2008 on the market. So, that leaves a ton of machines older than 7 months available without the "special switch". And it definately won't stop me from considering any new machines. I have 2 eMachines on the way and more in negotiations. They make a ton of money week after week. Seems crazy to me to throw that out the door for some lower class machine just because of a battery and tilt switch... but that's my choice.

Besides, how often do you guys move your machines? Some of you talk like you move your machines every few months. If you do that, it seems like there are other bigger problems than a control battery. Most places land a machine and it doesn't move for years and years ... if ever ... until its "dead". But even if you plan on expanding in the next few years or moving out from the single bay shop, what's the big deal? You don't have to wait until you're at the new location to call them, you can plan it ahead of time and schedule it. Then, after that move, when do you plan on moving again? Awfully tough to justify this as a revenue stream... the return sucks big time for the amount of engineering, incorporation, application and data systems needed.

It's funny you mention the man in the corner office in Kentucky. I was at Mazak in KY, in the fall of 2006 for training. It was 2 weeks before IMTS and all the machines that were going to the show were at the tech center, so the big wigs from Japan were at the tech and training centers all week. Our instructor made more than 1 comment to our class, that Mazak-USA was such a better company to work for and work with when a Japanese man ran Mazak-USA. Since they hired an American to run the USA division, it's just been all downhill. Just goes to show that the problems with manufacturing in this country has little to do with labor and is mostly due to management (no shocker I'm sure).

I don't know if it is different over here in Aus, but I have just had a quote on a new Nexus 410, and there is no charge for the reset if you move the machine, not even the standard call out charge.

I could care less if the reset code is free. the hassle factor is not. Have you ever really needed anything from Mazak Tech support and placed call after call with little response only to get really ticked off some 30 days later waiting for a solution? I have and I'm working on this for my 3rd time now with over a 3 week wait and still no answer.

Now maybe I'm missing something, but I'm supposed to believe that if I can't get a straight answer on the phone and I really need to have a tech visit my site it's going to somehow be faster.... ahahahahah I needed a good laugh.

Mazak makes wonderfull machines, and personally I think the device is a good idea, but it's going to require support form Mazak.

2 words with me that DON'T go together are Mazak and Support.

On the plus side, Mazak has been very good at lowering my expectations from almost every other vendor. Once you realize you can be down for 30 days for the most insignificant of issues, minor delays of a couple days or weeks from your other vendors seems trivial.

sigh..... yellow lights on back to work...