Mazak still broken

rockfish · Oct 25, 2011

Well, the saga continues..........

We had Mazak come out and spend two days pouring over the machine, trying to find out why we had an errant e-stop alarm. They finally decided that I had a corrupt software card and another bad card in the back of the machine. We ordered the parts from Mitsubishi, and a different service man came out today to install. He immediately had problems after installing the cards........fiddled around for about an hour and finally came into the office and claimed that we lost our LADDER somehow. Now, he's not sure if we needed the parts we had ordered at all.......and we are anxiously awaiting a fax from Japan, as Kentucky can't find the LADDER for my machine.

Meanwhile, I've racked up almost $4K in service calls and parts. I bought this machine for $17,500..........and now have $25,820 into it and haven't made a chip yet. This machine may yet put me out of business.

Frank

Home

Dave Cross · Oct 26, 2011

I feel your pain man. My Mazak and my big hmc cell system went the same way, finally I am on top and can see the light at the end of the tunnel but it was 8 months of pain to get to this point. I spent the same amount on service and repairs for my sqt10ms as I did for the whole machine, and its still not all perfect, but that is the way it goes buying used machines sometimes.

Captdave · Oct 27, 2011

Frank- Sorry to hear that your still not up and running. I assure you what your up against now is way beyond my limited knowledge level so all I can do is offer encourgement to see it thru.

Best of luck and keep us posted.

dinosaur · Oct 27, 2011

What model of Mazak and what control do you have? If the ladder is missing or corrupted, then you will definitely get an E-stop alarm. However, it will also generate this alarm if the ladder is simply stopped. To see if it is stopped, you would have to go into the ladder monitor page. From there, you can also restart the ladder.

wippin' boy · Oct 28, 2011

isn't the ladder just a cartridge with software that plugs into nc?
something generic from mazak or mits should be possible here
i've got a system pull from a qt18 t32 ?

hang in there frank

Mark McGrath · Oct 28, 2011

This just proves yet again that any small business with only a few machines should avoid Mazak like the plague.
Their machines are good,their service is crap,and it`s crap everywhere.
If a small business wants to invest heavily in a Mazak then they`d better pray it never breaks down because it will put them out of business.
And whats more,Mazak don`t care.

behindpropellers · Oct 28, 2011

Frank,

Looking back....

What would you have done different?

Tom3197 · Oct 28, 2011

Have we learned anything new on this?

Ox · Oct 28, 2011

It is suspected at this point yet that he may have taken a lightening strike.

----------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Joe788 · Oct 28, 2011

Mark McGrath said:
This just proves yet again that any small business with only a few machines should avoid Mazak like the plague.
Their machines are good,their service is crap,and it`s crap everywhere.
If a small business wants to invest heavily in a Mazak then they`d better pray it never breaks down because it will put them out of business.
And whats more,Mazak don`t care.

I don't agree with this at all, and I know a lot of big and small shops who don't agree with it either.

dinosaur · Oct 28, 2011

The machine tool service industry in general sucks and it has for a long time.

Here are some of the reasons:

They don't pay worth shit. They drag you out paying your traveling expenses while making you use your own credit card. They fire you at the slightest down turn in the economy and they train their people poorly.

Bean counters don't yet realize that you cannot get someone off the street or out of college that can immediately do this type of work. Management and HR people are clueless to what is required for a competent service tech.

Mazak is probably no better or worse than other builders.

If you buy any used machine, you should be prepared to fix it yourself or pay some serious money for someone else to do so.

Be aware of used Mazaks with a relocation detector. Any Mazak with a Matrix control will have one. Some models such as the VTC still have the Fusion control. They will also have a relocation detector if built in the past 4 years or so. This detector is an accelerometer that will sense the slightest tilt of the machine when moved.

When these machines are moved, you will no longer be able to operate them in automatic mode. Essentially, you will only be able to jog the axes back and forth. These machines will require a code generated from Japan to make the machine operational in automatic mode.

A Mazak service engineer or representative will have to come to your facility to verify the machine's location and serial number. If you buy a new Mazak, this service is no charge if you move the machine after the initial installation. However, you will have to arrange a service call in advance. This is a major inconvenience for some companies who move machines frequently.

If you buy a used machine, you will pay for this service. This should diminish the value of used Mazaks. When looking at a used Mazak, you may see it working fine at a factory or at a dealer's warehouse. Once it is moved to your facility, it will not work.

If you open up the electrical cabinet you will see this device usually near the bottom of the cabinet. It will not be labeled "relocation detector". It will be labeled as "A50" or "A55" or similar designation depending on the model of the machine. It is a small black box about 3 inches square. It has a cover on it with 2 batteries inside. It has two plugs going into it. One plug provides the voltage, the other provides the input/output for the PLC.

In the electrical schematics that come with the machine it is also not labeled as a relocation detector. Regardless of the model, there will be a page in the schematic book that says "IHC NEKUST ESI" in the title block. This is the page that shows the circuitry going into and out of the device. It does not show the internal wiring.

I have not heard yet of anybody hacking this device, but I cannot imagine it will be too difficult.

Just like used cars; buyer beware!

hitandmiss · Oct 28, 2011

The ladder ID number is on the cartridge, and on the proms inside. The same ladder is used on various models, and tailored by bits in the "keep relays".

The poor service kind of explains why any tech worth a darn can make a go of it if he has any business sense. The performance bar of the competition is quite low.

For the small shop: If you can find an independent serviceman that has a good reputation, provides an alternative to Mazak.

dinosaur: One should not ignore battery alarms, when that set goes dead, it's only Mazak that can bring it back to life $$$$$

Bill

Laurentian · Oct 28, 2011

RockFish's is T2 I think, so no motion detector there.
I really hope he gets it going though.
He may have to look around for a parts machine or
a part out on eBay.
Whenever we buy machinery it can take us
easily over a year to get said machine running in
production mode. I like to pace myself to keep the stress
down and focus on running the shop while my brother
seems to want to stop everything and get the machine
going right now for ROI :willy_nilly:

Joe788 · Oct 28, 2011

dinosaur said:
The machine tool service industry in general sucks and it has for a long time.

Here are some of the reasons:

They don't pay worth shit. They drag you out paying your traveling expenses while making you use your own credit card. They fire you at the slightest down turn in the economy and they train their people poorly.

Bean counters don't yet realize that you cannot get someone off the street or out of college that can immediately do this type of work. Management and HR people are clueless to what is required for a competent service tech.

Mazak is probably no better or worse than other builders.

If you buy any used machine, you should be prepared to fix it yourself or pay some serious money for someone else to do so.

Be aware of used Mazaks with a relocation detector. Any Mazak with a Matrix control will have one. Some models such as the VTC still have the Fusion control. They will also have a relocation detector if built in the past 4 years or so. This detector is an accelerometer that will sense the slightest tilt of the machine when moved.

When these machines are moved, you will no longer be able to operate them in automatic mode. Essentially, you will only be able to jog the axes back and forth. These machines will require a code generated from Japan to make the machine operational in automatic mode.

A Mazak service engineer or representative will have to come to your facility to verify the machine's location and serial number. If you buy a new Mazak, this service is no charge if you move the machine after the initial installation. However, you will have to arrange a service call in advance. This is a major inconvenience for some companies who move machines frequently.

If you buy a used machine, you will pay for this service. This should diminish the value of used Mazaks. When looking at a used Mazak, you may see it working fine at a factory or at a dealer's warehouse. Once it is moved to your facility, it will not work.

If you open up the electrical cabinet you will see this device usually near the bottom of the cabinet. It will not be labeled "relocation detector". It will be labeled as "A50" or "A55" or similar designation depending on the model of the machine. It is a small black box about 3 inches square. It has a cover on it with 2 batteries inside. It has two plugs going into it. One plug provides the voltage, the other provides the input/output for the PLC.

In the electrical schematics that come with the machine it is also not labeled as a relocation detector. Regardless of the model, there will be a page in the schematic book that says "IHC NEKUST ESI" in the title block. This is the page that shows the circuitry going into and out of the device. It does not show the internal wiring.

I have not heard yet of anybody hacking this device, but I cannot imagine it will be too difficult.

Just like used cars; buyer beware!

All of the big Japanese builders already have, or will soon have the same relocation device. You can thank Mitutoyo for that one. :angry:

A service tech does need to come out and verify the machine's location to reset the relocation detector, but I don't really see that as a very big deal, since I've had Mazak come out to do the leveling and alignment every time I've installed a machine anyways. Perhaps if I lived hundreds or thousands of miles from a service tech, I'd be a little pissed though.

Almost all Mazaks are intended to be anchored to the floor, and only the small lathes and mills could even be considered as, "pick it up and move it" type machines. I don't know how many people are really doing that though. I know a lot of people with Mazaks, and I don't know anybody that moves them around. As far as the relocation detector diminishing the value of a used Mazak, I think that's a little bit of a reach. People are still getting $80-90K for 8 year old Mazak Nexus machines that cost $90K when they were new. :eek:

Dave Cross · Oct 28, 2011

The relocation issue is a big problem with a company like mazak that offers probably the worst service of any major mtb, do a search on this forum, more people bitch about mazak service then any other brand and its not just because they sell so many machines, their service just sucks. They should take service lessons from Haas, Matsuura, Nakamura etc sure even those guys have problems but not like mazak.

That said Mazak does have some nice products and I am starting to like my mazak turning center, but the only reason I would only buy another one if I couldn't find a similarily optioned Nak, Mori or Okuma.

Stuart Caruk · Oct 29, 2011

I feel sorry for this guy, and have to just laugh at Mazaks incompetence. I went to Kentucky and took the advanced controls course, and I've dealt with Mazak apps guys in my shop. They make a HUGE deal that they have parameters for every machine sold in the US stored in Kentucky. When a change is made to a parameter and or the ladder, an exact copy is "supposed" to be sent to Kentucky so any apps tech can easilly recover the parameters required for that specific machine and serial number.

The reality apears different.

This doesn't surprise me, because they also claim to have a datebase of all service issues, and the solutions. In theory if a problem has occurred in the past and been solved, any apps tech should be able to quickly ascertain the solution. Of course my experience proved differently, and I know a lot of guys that have had the exact same issues that Mazak couldn't find in their database. When they can't tell a person how to recover from a low battery alarm on an Integrex, it makes a person wonder.

I too would never suggest anyone buy a Mazak if they can't fix it themselves, or they have an iron clad performance uptime guarantee. Hopefully someday their service will come close to the quality of their machines. Great machines, Lousy service. Glad to be rid of mine.

Laurentian · Oct 29, 2011

Dave Cross said:
The relocation issue is a big problem with a company like mazak that offers probably the worst service of any major mtb, do a search on this forum, more people bitch about mazak service then any other brand and its not just because they sell so many machines, their service just sucks. They should take service lessons from Haas, Matsuura, Nakamura etc sure even those guys have problems but not like mazak.

That said Mazak does have some nice products and I am starting to like my mazak turning center, but the only reason I would only buy another one if I couldn't find a similarily optioned Nak, Mori or Okuma.

Yes but they have no Mazatrol

rockfish · Oct 29, 2011

behindpropellers said:
Frank,

Looking back....

What would you have done different?

Well........good question. My biggest fear of getting into CNC was the fear of service problems, particularly electrical, and that has played out. I don't have deep pockets, so if I had to do it again, that machine wouldn't be setting on my floor. I would strongly advise anyone thinking about getting into CNC machining to think carefully about what they will do if the machine they buy turns into a money pit.

I can only hope that it will be repaired soon and we can get on with learning how to use it and make some money with it. So far, it has been a HUGE drain on my resources.
I am VERY unhappy with the fact that two service guys came out and took 2 days to determine that I had some bad cards in the machine, then a different service man comes to install them and says that it appears we may not have needed them in the first place.
It makes me wonder who, if any of them, really knows what's going on. Are any of these guys competent ???

Right now, I'm waiting for them to fax the ladder info from Japan. It's been 3 days without any word. It also pisses me off that the service guys that they are sending out are all a minimum of 3 hours away. I live less than an hour away from the Detroit area.
They don't have any service people near Detroit ??? Really ??? The last service call was $85 an hour driving time (3 HOURS WORTH !) and $110 for travel expenses. The actual $125 an hour service isn't too bad.

Frank

Home

cnctoolcat · Oct 29, 2011

Frank,

For control-related electrical problems, Mitsubishi Electric Automation (MEAU) in Chicago can help more than Mazak.

MEAU builds all electricals for a Mazak, including the suspect cards your techs ordered and replaced. MEAU is very knowledgeable in Mazak diagnosis and repair.

Actually, I believe MEAU has all the ladder info, and all parameter info on older Mazaks.

It don't cost nothin' to give 'em a call in Chicago....

earthstore88 · Oct 30, 2011

What kind of machine for $17,500? Our first Mazak was a 1996 QT-20 for $40,000 and has only had minor issues. Turret got stuck on the unclamp, called service and they were very helpful. Took the turret off and managed to clean the coolant passage but could figure out the problem. Tech came in fixed the problem in about three hours, I learned a little more and every things been fine. Only other issue is when I got pissed and through a part and it hit my switch box to send programs, a quick blue spark glistened from it as it hit the floor. The next day the control went wacky on me. Service came and took care of the problem, they even screwed up a little but the tech was honest and I didn't get charged for it. I learned my lesson and swear that I don't ever through shit in the shop anymore. I should have learned my lesson when in high school I through a sheet metal ninja start in the metal shop ceiling and the second one hit the lighting fixture, and crash class came raining down. My teachers face with his jaw dropped is forever engrained in my head. I quickly cleaned the mess thanked the high heavens no one got hurt and was amazed I didn't get suspended.

Anyhow, figure a new Mazak 2-axis lathe is going to start around $80k to $120k and if were talking multi-axis were moving up $150-$250k plus. So looks like your still doing all right if the ways, spindle, and ball screws are all good.

Anyhow, sucks to have a machine down I'm sure you'll get it running if your persistent and still be ahead. And remember always be kind to your service techs your balls are in their hands. They may even be reading this post.

Mazak still broken

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Hot Rolled

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