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  1. #1
    Philabuster's Avatar
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    Default QT10N ATC/MC T3 Milling Spindle Alarm 205

    My Friend bought a 1988 QT 10N atc/mc two years ago and it has sat in his garage without power since then. Well, he finally got some cash together to get it running. He is running it on a Kay 20hp Phase Converter.

    We replaced the Nicad batteries and reloaded the parameters. We cannot get the milling spindle alarm (205) to clear. This model uses the main Freqrol spindle drive to also drive the mill spindle. I have an older 1986 10N atc/mc at work that has a separate milling spindle drive. I am very familiar with the machine, but running a CNC on a RPC is new to me.

    I suspect the RPC voltage may be the problem. The machine had no issues and tested fine before purchase. There are a couple parameters that it will not take, but my machine at work has the same exact issue with those parameters (A20) and it runs fine.

    Anyway, as we all know, the generated leg from the RPC is reading a bit high. The machine has an intergral 3 transformer to adjust virtually any standard voltage. The machine is tapped for 240V and ideally, the output to the machine should be 210V as stated on the transformer. We disconnected a few run capacitors in an attempt to reduce no-load voltage.

    Input line voltage is 233V, 239V, 257V.

    Out from the transformer 229V, 211V, 234V.

    Electrician from work suggested running another motor on the same circuit to help balance the voltage. Output from transformer with engine lathe running in high gear:

    224V, 212V, 231V.

    Is it time for a few buck transformers? I wish he could just buy a PP and be done with it.

    We read that many people have had good luck running older Mazaks on RPCs. However, I am also nervous about the RPC not being able to sink regenerated power from the Freqrol.

    I have searched and searched on this and <cough> other forums. I cannot find anything close to the issue with the milling spindle error.

    Your help is appreciated.

  2. #2
    Ox's Avatar
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    I'd say that the machine has issues.

    I doubt that the RPC is the problem. That thing will [likely] run with numbers WAY further out than that.

    If it was a V issue, I would think that your error code would note that instead.

    I have 9 CNC's on 1 Kay RPC. None being a Mazak tho.


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  3. #3
    Philabuster's Avatar
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    Well, when we first got my machine from another division used in 1996, the hydraulic pump did not build pressure. I took it upon myself to try and find out what was wrong with it. I reversed the hydraulic pump wires and everything worked. The lathe did work at least for a while.

    1.5 years later, we started having problems with it. The X-axis drive board failed. Our techs could not figure out what the issue was and Mazak was called out to diagnose it. He found the phasing issue and also the machine was wired 460V when we had 480V. After the transformer reduced the voltage, it was only 10V over nominal. I said is that really that big a deal? He said the electronics do not like over voltage condition in my vintage machine and things start failing at random.

    Fast forward 12 years later and my machine is still running strong.

    We are trying to feed my friend's machine +10V and +15V on two legs. I remembered the tech's words back then. I am not a machine tech at all. I can run the shit out of my Mazak, but diagnosing electrical issues is over my head. I am constantly in fear I will let the factory smoke out if I poke around too much.

    It may be a coincidence about the RPC, but I thought it was important to mention.

  4. #4
    Ox's Avatar
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    Well, when we first got my machine from another division used in 1996, the hydraulic pump did not build pressure. I took it upon myself to try and find out what was wrong with it. I reversed the hydraulic pump wires and everything worked. The lathe did work at least for a while.
    It sounds like you should have switched two entrance wires. The hydro pump is always the dead givaway for phase on a CNC hookup. I doo have some Reliance drives that actually have a "phase synch" light on them.


    It may be a coincidence about the RPC, but I thought it was important to mention.
    Coincidence?

    Machine sat in cold (Hot?) storage for two yrs. Batts went dead. Lost params. And now your ass_u_ming the RPC as "coincidence"?


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  5. #5
    Philabuster's Avatar
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    Thanks for the feedback, Ox. I learned all about Ass_u_ming from watching reruns of Benny Hill when I was a kid.

    Talking about 2 different machines in my earlier post. Sorry for any confusion. Yes, my old machine was phased backwards. I swapped two dinky wires on the pump back in the day instead of messing with the big wires in the machine disconnect. Not the proper thing to do, but everything worked. I did not know about proper phase sequence on the VFD. Phase light was off when the Mazak tech showed it to me. Live and learn.

    Yes, friend's machine was sitting in his hot garage for 2 years. Replaced batteries, reloaded parameters via keypad, and cleared all but this one fault code.

    If I switch off the 100 amp breaker to the VFD, I get alarm 204 spindle drive alarm along with the 205 alarm. Switch breaker back on and 204 goes away, but 205 is still there. This machine is a bit newer than mine in that it uses the same VFD for both main and milling spindle. Mine has two separate drives, which for me, is easier to diagnose.

    Nothing will run because of this alarm. 205 and 20 (emergency stop) show up on the diagnostics page. Any red machine alarms seem to always have emergency stop alarm as companion. And no, the big red button is not pushed in.

    It feels like I just need to reset a breaker somewhere to get this mofo running.

  6. #6
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    I understood two diff machines just fine.

    I am not privy to Mazak codes. Sorry.


    However - I will add tho that I have 2 diff Fanuc servo drives that have bad capacitors. For a while I could leave the power ON to them and then cycle the power, and all would be right with the werld. (This told me that it was a cap/charge issue.)

    Eventually that trick wouldn't werk anymore. Currently one of the drives has got to have a heat lamp on it to warm up the caps BEFORE I cycle the power on.

    Could this be a similar issue to yours?

    Also - if it's a spindle drive, maybe try pulling the load side leads off of it and see if anything changes. Also the feedback wires. Maybe not both at the same time.

    I know that some digital spindle drives have params of their own. (Siemens at least) Any chance that your (buddys) drive lost it's marbles?


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    Chippy is offline Plastic
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    Check H10 bit 4 to see if it's a 1 or 0. Should be 0. Also check H130 bit 0 should be a 1 if machine ready and I guess it's not. 205 is mill spindle alarm. The only thing that I know of that will create this is the spindle itself. What type of Freqroe to you halve. FR-SF or FR-SE?

    Chippy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chippy View Post
    Check H10 bit 4 to see if it's a 1 or 0. Should be 0. Also check H130 bit 0 should be a 1 if machine ready and I guess it's not. 205 is mill spindle alarm. The only thing that I know of that will create this is the spindle itself. What type of Freqroe to you halve. FR-SF or FR-SE?

    Chippy
    FR-SE Drive. I do not see which H parameters you are referring to. The only parameters that have multiple bits are the OP 1 to OP 16 parameters.

    Here is a list of the main 3 parameter pages we reloaded. We did not re-initialize the control. Wippin Boy stated it was unnecessary in several of his older posts. We did clear a parity alarm following the procedure outlined in the service bulletin.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails qt10n-atc_mc-parameters-1.jpg   qt10n-atc_mc-parameters-2.jpg   qt10n-atc_mc-parameters-3.jpg  

  9. #9
    Chippy is offline Plastic
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    Sorry, those are I/OI addresses on the diagnostic page. You have to cursor down to the H address then type in the adress and hit input to see the results. You will see bits 7~0 with numbers 0 and 1 under each.

    Also what version PC s/W do you have. This is also located in diagnostics. Should start with the numbe 4 such as 425: C or A

    Chippy

  10. #10
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    Ok. Control is YT3C. Not sure about the software version though.

    I cannot make it out there until Sunday. I will ask my friend if he can look this up and the H addresses in the mean time.

    Thanks for the help.

  11. #11
    wippin' boy is offline Diamond
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    There are a couple parameters that it will not take,
    to load op parameters you need to type in whole line then add the total number of 1's at the end

    0010 1100
    becomes
    0010 11003

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by wippin' boy View Post
    to load op parameters you need to type in whole line then add the total number of 1's at the end

    0010 1100
    becomes
    0010 11003
    We entered the OP parameters ok. The issue is several M parameters will not take the data per the parameter sheet. For example, M20 reads M20 = ***. I cannot get it to take M0 per the parameter list or anything else. Funny part is BOTH machines (mine at work and my friend's machine) have the same issue with M20 reading ***. However, my machine runs fine. I guess this machine does not use the M20 data and just ignores it.

    There are a few other M parameters M28-M31 which are supposed to be '0', but the machine will only accept a '1' or a '2' . When trying to enter a '0', it reads a blue message '402 Data Inadequate'.

    EDIT: I just realized something. My machine has a separate milling spindle drive and my friend's uses the same drive for the milling and turning spindle. I think the reason we are getting a 205 milling drive alarm is because we entered the parameters for my machine thinking they were identical. The machine is looking for the separate spindle drive and it is not there.

    He is looking through his parameter books and trying to find where we goofed. Hopefully this is the problem.

    Thanks for the help. I will keep you posted.

  13. #13
    Justin_Terry is offline Cast Iron
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    if you don't find them mazak will dig them up for you for like 450 bucks

  14. #14
    wippin' boy is offline Diamond
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    my machine has the stacked freqrol controlling the milling spindle
    if you give me a clue what ones your after i could check them out

  15. #15
    Chippy is offline Plastic
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    Hi the parameters that you are talking about do not matter. Sometimes when your battery goes dead this happens. If you can't change them then they are not used. The only way to clear them is to blow the whole memory out. You can only do this with certain software versions on the T3 or by sending the FX727 to Mits for manual clearing.

    Your spindle amplifier appears to be the problem since an alarm 205 is an external alarm from the CNC which is an input from the spindle. Look over the LED condition on the FR-SE spindle and see if you have an alarm LED condition. The cover of the Spindle will also give you some indication of what the LED conditions are as different combinations tell you what alarm it is.

    In addition, some older T3 Mazak's used a servo amplifer for the mill spindle which engaged mechanically. Look at your servo amplifier LED conditions also. Do you have two or three servo amplifers. You may even have an inverter such as a FR-K version amplifer also hidden in a different cabinet. Look closely an report back to us on the forum for more help.

    Regards,

    Chippy

  16. #16
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    It works!

    It was the parameters--and the loose nut by the control panel.

    OP4 needed to be 1100 0000 per the book where as my older machine used 0000 0000. For future reference, this machine has software PC 425 G and my older one is PC 425 C. There were no alarm condition LEDs on the Freqrol drive at any time either.

    We used my parameters in the first place because I had edited a lot of the cut and user parameters over the years. They also gave us a starting point on the tool probe and a few other machine parameters because there was not a copy of ALL the parameters as shipped--just the general book parameters.

    Apparently, we went too far and substituted the OP parameters as well. No bueno. At least we did not let out the factory smoke.

    Thanks again for all the help.

  17. #17
    wippin' boy is offline Diamond
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    and the loose nut by the control panel
    oh yeah
    got a couple of those

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