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Thread: B&A Precision
04-21-2017, 10:23 AM #3421
The PP can act as a 100% power regen station in reverse. They show them being connected to a 3ph wind turbine to make single phase juice. My PP has no issue when my big Mazak goes into regen. Funny to watch the old school power meter I have feeding the PP go into reverse.
wheelieking71 liked this post
04-21-2017, 10:53 AM #3422
Don't know if this is any help or not, but a friend had the same issue with one of his machines. Worked great in the winter but come summer in the late afternoon, the machine would alarm out. Tried changing phases, changed voltage taps, changed source of power for control. The machine was a SWI bed mill. Put voltage recorders on, changed the control panel for RPC to solid state control. Plugged the control into the wall instead of the mill. What finally solved the problem was to put the controls on a UPS. Just the computer, not the servos.
04-21-2017, 12:04 PM #3423
The randomness thing started me thinking along the power supply lines. Perhaps the main logic power supply is a little crusty (switchers get worse until they blow up because the caps take a dump) and it not tolerating the new conditions well.
I know that HAAS uses static memory on those machines and so main memory will be backed up by the batteries, but the CPU and other stuff is powered only by the logic supply.
The 625 seems like it's the terminating end of a catchall alarm, in software programming we call them exceptions; when a chunk of code fails, you can either get real descriptive and throw a unique exception, throw a generalized exception with a specific message/code, or just throw up an exception.
HAAS' ladder may treat all failures within a certain branch as a 625, regardless if it's actually gotten to the proxy switch detection point yet.
04-21-2017, 01:40 PM #3424
Once a machine fails, it's "done for the day" - meaning it will refuse to work until say 12+ hours later, including the cool of the night, yes? (Both machines...)
Assuming I read that right - attempt to measure the *temps* of whatever chips you can see inside the cabinet when the machine is working. Measure again right after failure. Also, if the controller can display CPU temp or any similar such data, capture that....
Does the machine always fail on the same line of code? (Both machines?)
Computers (at least PCs) can be very sensitive to airflow, sometimes in weird ways (as in taking the cover OFF a PC will often make it overheat), and depending on the particular CPU, being driven out of spec by either power or temp can make it "fault" in some semi-deterministic way - which will show with whatever fault handler (exception handler) happened to catch it, if it didn't just go away entirely. [See Perry's note above.]
04-21-2017, 01:53 PM #3425
I may however go buy an IR thermometer, that is a good idea.
Neighbor has a FLIR. That made troubleshooting some issues I was having with the existing shop power easy-peasy.
There is 100amps of 240 1-ph coming in to the panel that was existing when I moved in.
It used to be fed as a sub-panel, fed by another sub-panel, fed from the main panel 200ft away on the house.
Now it is fed straight from the main panel on the shop 4ft away.
It blew one of the fuses in the main panel a couple times. Had a hunch what was going on, the FLIR confirmed it!
Very cool tool!
04-21-2017, 02:35 PM #3426
If you can swing it, I have one of these and love it for troubleshooting. Quickly found a loose connection in a breaker box. The IR temp guns are nice but wont do anything like a camera will. They also have them that will plug into your smartphone, a bit cheaper.
RevealXR | Seek Thermal
04-21-2017, 06:18 PM #3427
Wheelie - this is from many miles away grasping at obscure things - but if you are down...
What I'm getting at - your controller is a computer. The components in computers start to get flakey outside of certain temp bounds. So if it gets hot enough (in the right place) the controller may get flakey. And *maybe* in a way like what you are seeing.
(Because, say, a transistor that drives a line that drives a relay related to tool positioning is really unhappy, and when pinged it does something really random -> the fault you are seeing.)
Note that the temps inside of say a CPU chip itself can be MUCH hoter (like 100°C) than the air in the cabinet..
Now to add to the fun, you moved the machines, and the airflow/etc. in the new shop may not be the same. It's not about how "hot the shop is" but about "heat rejection from at the limit parts of the controller".
A problem here is that bad power because it's peak A/C time of day, bad temps because it's peak A/C time of day, are hard to sort out.
Another thing to consider is whether you can rent a mobile industrial cooler (I've a movincool unit, I think Sun rentals rents them.) Rent it, set it up so it is blowing cold air at the air intakes on the controller (and the out air outside!) You are not trying to A/C the whole shop, just the unhappy controller.
If you problem is a power quality problem, the cooler won't fix it. If the cooler does fix it, start looking at cooling problems.
Garwood liked this post
04-21-2017, 06:26 PM #3428
Is the Haas "Control" in the pendant possibly?
Is the pendant warm?
Have you been leaving all the doors to the machine open?
Doo these machine have A/C, or those wonderfull "heat exchangers"?
Think Snow Eh!
04-21-2017, 06:58 PM #3429
If this problem is about heat, there is now way that these two machines would operate for 8+ hours before they fault. There is nothing wrong with these two mills. Check AIR SUPPLY. Wheelie, you may just have crap floating around in your recently plumbed lines. Purge your airlines, look for crap and check your filters.
04-21-2017, 07:08 PM #3430
If this does it at the same place every time, then you need to figger out what it is that it is expecting to happen next.
Doo you know if it dwells a bit before it faults?
Like - It fires an output related to your tool change routine, and is expecting confirmation from a prox or LS somewhere that it complete, and after 1, 2, 5 seconds, after not seeing it happen, it faults out?
If so, then you need to figger out
A) If it is the sending unit (prox/LS) that is acting up
B) If the mechanism is in fact not getting to where it needs to be
C) Or if the sending unit did in fact fire, but the PLC just isn't seeing it.
C 1) Is the INPUT card on the PLC gotten bad?
Maybe you just need a new INPUT card on the PLC. (ass_u_ming that it is like a Fanuc, OMRON, or ??? type slide in cards) ???
If you could reboot and make it repeat, then if you were able to set your params to be able to single block through the toolchange macro - then you could prolly see what it is that it is looking for more accurately, but ... ???
Would it be possible to view the M6 macro once it gets stuck and see what line it's on?
Think Snow Eh!
04-21-2017, 07:37 PM #3431
Again - from your earlier account of the scenario, it seemed to me like it could have been the M19. If so - it could be that heat in the head has gotten so that the encoder (reader head?) that picks up the HOME position on spindle could be flaking out on you.
If so - I could see it taking several hours for it to cool off inside the head.
If you think that this could be the issue, maybe you have a winder or 2 in the side of the head that you could remove and see if that changes anything [for the better?].
I have had to replace one of those reader heads on one of my mills a few yrs back. Not a Haas (and not a Fanuc either). Mine didn't act like that. I think mine just plain went bad and stayed that way.
Think Snow Eh!
04-21-2017, 09:29 PM #3432
It seems unlikely the same problem would appear on 2 machines at once unless it is external, power, air or ambient temperature.
04-22-2017, 07:06 AM #3433
ranchak liked this post
04-22-2017, 08:03 AM #3434
OK - here's another idear:
If the machine gets into a hissy fit about not coming out of the Fault state 'till morning, reset your PP.
The PP is the main "one thing" that is different, but you say that all is right with it. But at the same time - I bet that you have only shut the PP down when you call it a day, thus resetting it when you power up in the AM.
Think Snow Eh!
moonlight machine liked this post
04-22-2017, 08:16 AM #3435
One happens before the tool-change even physically starts. And one happens mid tool-change.
Also, the mid tool-change problem just RE-appeared. It has done it before many months ago.
But, no, I have never tried shutting it down. I will definitely give it a shot next episode.
Yesterday: fired both machines up at 5am.
The mid tool-change issue machine ran all day with a one-tool program. No tool-changes. It ran fine.
The pre tool-change machine ran balls out from 5:30 till about noon. No alarms.
Sat idling from noon, till about 2:30. Then ran balls out again from 2:30, till about 5:30. No alarms. Figures!
04-22-2017, 08:19 AM #3436
04-22-2017, 08:39 AM #3437
04-22-2017, 08:45 AM #3438
Perhaps call up Ellison or Haas and ask them which leg needs to get the generated phase to avoid the controller and drives. There are a metric shitton of Haas mills running off phase converters just in the Phoenix area alone.
04-22-2017, 08:47 AM #3439
I smoked a few of those little "line conditioners" in my big Cinci soon after puting it online. .. and I mean SMOKED!
My Fluke didn't show anything abnormal.
But just fer grins I went'n grabbed an annalog meter that my tech had left here, and it showed 1000V (instead of 480) My digi couldn't see it, but I assure you that those little Genie bottles that let the smoke out sure did! My control didn't like it neither. It would shut down on it's own.
I don't know if it is the X that _ that machine is on or what? This is not on a PP, but it is on my big RPC, but I run oodles of other machines on it with no issue at all to speak of. So - we took the conditioners out, and plugged the control in the light socket, and all is [reasonably] fine.
So - your PP could have some resonances that your MM might not be seeing? You are actually running twins, and while the rest of us may dream of having twins once in a while, most of us have not actually executed the action, so you could have an anomolly going on that the rest of us with singles may not have seen before.
As per Phil, just try moving your warrs down one post and try aggin.
L1 to L2, L2 to L3, and L3 to L1.
This will keep your phasing the same while moving your gen3 leg.
If that doesn't fix it, move it one more time the same direction.
An Isolation X may help as well. I ass_u_me that you are not going through an X on this machine at this point? (240V?)
So, by mixing the lines up a little may solve a funky sparky issue....
I doubt that your HFO is going to be able to point a finger at your issue here. At least not on the new one...
Think Snow Eh!
Last edited by Ox; 04-22-2017 at 09:11 AM. Reason: added some more
04-22-2017, 10:11 AM #3440
Well, I talked to a buddy of mine, who knows HAAS machines quite well.
So, back to the X-former taps, and the Vector-Drive getting 240v instead of 230v.
He said the 240v in is no big deal, the important thing to check is the DC-Buss. Should be between 305vdc and 340vdc. 325vdc is ideal.
The new machine was right at the high, so he suggested to in fact try moving the taps over one step like I was thinking. And see how it runs.
I thought the max on the DC-Buss was 395vdc (I was wrong). I do know that if it goes over 410ish during decel (regen) it will throw an over-voltage.
But, he also doesn't think this is the problem. He thinks switch/sensor (circuit integration) issue (affected by temperature), as do I.
Reason? The third machine, wired identically to the other two, has ran perfectly @ 100% for 5 12hr days in a row.
Thank God for that! Cause homey is flat-fekkin'-broke over here! (and a couple customers are getting pissy)