Thread: Construction begins on my new shop

Originally Posted by Mark Rand

Before you fill it all up, could you use any size of storage/air compressor, etc. basement? You've already got most of the makings for one if it would be useful.

Mark,
No need for a storage area. My plans call for a 12'x20' utility room for the ventilation/heating equipment and also an air compressor. At one time I actually considered a wood floor over joists (crawl space) instead of a concrete floor, but it posed some problems, so I went back to the traditional concrete floor.
Thanks for the recommendation!

Tim

Hello again Tim,

"ICF" stands for "Insulated Concrete Foundation". Kind of like hollow foam Lego blocks that you fill with rebar and concrete. Depending on the thickness of the concrete wall that you have and whether you go with a 2"x6" or a 2"x4" wall for framing, there will be a lip of concrete wall showing on the inside. I agree that the foam and subsequent 'fireproofing" will just add to that bump, but with "in-floor heat" you certainly want that insulation to at least go to the top of the slab, or there will be a heat loss to the outside.

Good luck...

Brian

Installing the foam board on the outside of the foundation would solve a lot of problems. Easily covered with stucco products, top lip if exposed easily flashed. Insulating on the exterior also keeps frost out of the concrete foundation, preventing any problems with concrete cracking from freezing.

Ed

Originally Posted by Sachmanram

Hello again Tim,

Depending on the thickness of the concrete wall that you have and whether you go with a 2"x6" or a 2"x4" wall for framing, there will be a lip of concrete wall showing on the inside. I agree that the foam and subsequent 'fireproofing" will just add to that bump, but with "in-floor heat" you certainly want that insulation to at least go to the top of the slab, or there will be a heat loss to the outside.

Brian,
I have been discussing this with my concrete guy. I wasn't sure where to stop the insulation. I wanted the full benefit (minimal heat loss), but I wasn't sure I wanted to look at this blue or pink foam insulation all around the interior of the floor.
It looks like Ed has given me a great idea.

Tim

Originally Posted by ecortech

Installing the foam board on the outside of the foundation would solve a lot of problems. Easily covered with stucco products, top lip if exposed easily flashed. Insulating on the exterior also keeps frost out of the concrete foundation, preventing any problems with concrete cracking from freezing.

Ed

Sure, Ed. Now you tell me... Where were you when I was deciding where to install the insulation?

Actually I asked my concrete contractor and geothermal heating contractor and both recommended the inside of the walls. I guess those of us in the lower 48 may not be as knowledgeable as you Canucks when it comes to insulating from the cold.

I did frett over how to cover up the insulation if I did put it on the outside. But now you have given me an idea on maybe how to cover it up on the inside of the shop - flashing.
Hmmmm......

Tim

You also could look into the products they use with ICF construction, they have some stucco like products to cover exposed foam. I say stucco like because, unlike traditional stucco they are applied directly to the foam board no wire mesh. I don't know, but assume they would have a fire rated product. I have used several of these products, they are easy to apply, durable, easily repaired if damaged, can be colored painted etc, look almost like a concrete wall when finished. Flashing will work, may be the way to go for you, but will be susceptible to denting damage over time.

Ed

Ed,
I would appreciate any information you can give me on these stucco-like products. I am not familiar with them. Manufacturers, product names, anything.
Thanks.
Tim

Be careful with your choice of stucco products, here in GA businesses insurance rates (for structures) are based on the recommendations by a state insurance inspector. They told me one of the worst ratings they offer is for stucco buildings. Could make your insurance rate higher than you might think. Just an idea, you might want to pass things on to your insurance co before you get too far with your building.

Charles

Charles,
Thanks for the caution related to the use of stucco. I will definitely talk with my insurance agent.

Tim

Tim,
The finish system ya'll are talking about is E.I.F.S or Exterior Insulation & Finish System. Here is a link, one of many, with an explanation: EIFS - Synthetic Stucco EIFS is used quite a lot down here in the South.
In my opinion, for what it's worth, EIFS looks good, it's a lot less labor than stucco, and has good insulation value because of the foam insulation that is integral in the system. There are a couple of drawbacks, though. One negative is when the system is used in a commercial application and is accessable by the public, people tend to poke, prod, and generally pick holes into it. It is easily damaged and can look shabby very quickly. Second if you are going to have oil and chips around EIFS it will stain and look bad very quickly.
In general and, and again in my opinion, EIFS is a fine product if it is out of reach of the possibility of damage threat.
Good luck,
toolles

Don't forget the waterproofing on the outside of the foundation. It's messy to put on, but protects the concrete in freezing and thawing cycles and cuts down on the amount of moisture that makes it into the shop.

Neil

Neil,
I wasn't planning on doing any waterproffing on the sides of the concrete walls. I figured since I don't have any living space inside the concrete walls it wasn't necessary. I will use plastic sheeting before pouring the concrete floor to keep the moisture out of the shop area.

Tim

Not much progress on the construction lately. About 10 days ago the guy that will be drilling the geothermal wells stopped by to look at the location and help me plan the well locations. We determined the well locations, but the well guy had concerns about the looks of the pvc stub piping that my concrete contractor had installed for the geothermal piping. The well guy was concerned that the plastic geothermal piping would not make the turns in sharp corners of the 90 degree pvc stub piping. Keep in mind that the corners of the stub piping were buried underground in the concrete walls and we weren't sure if they were going to be a problem or not. The only way to find out would be to uncover the other end of the pvc stub piping and try to send some of the geothermal plastic piping up through the pvc stub piping and see if it made it through. I started digging where I thought the outlet would be. To you picture this, here is where the stub piping was located after the footings were poured.
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I started digging on the outside of the footing. After an hour of digging, I decided maybe I should ask my concrete guy where the outlet of the pvc stub piping was located. Good thing I asked since it was on the other side of the building about 20 feet away. Evidently I had forgot where I told him I was hooking up to the geotheral wells. Oh well.
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I started digging in the new location. According to the concrete guy, the outlet for the pvc stub piping was located somewhere between 3 and 4 feet down. I grabbed my shovel and started digging.

It was tough going. We haven't had rain here for a long time. I haven't mowed my yard for 2 monhs, if that gives you any indication. Severe drought. Well, the soil was like rock. I finally decided to fill the hole with water and let it soak in. Maybe this would make it easier. I filled a 5 gallon bucket with water, lugged it out to the construction project and poured it in. Several hours later I went back out and had a much easier time digging. I finally uncovered the stub piping. Maybe you can get a feel of the "rock like" soil here. The end of one of the stub pipes is covered in duct tape so you may see the gray color.
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Now I just have to wait for the geothermal contractor to come and run some geo-piping in the pvc stub piping and make sure it will go through all the way. Wish me luck.
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I did start putting some drain piping along the base of the concrete walls to help me with water removal due to the slope of the location. I went to the local home center and found some new product.
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Hopefully it works as advertised. It is an 8 foot section of slotted plastic drain tile surrounded with small pieces of styrofoam and all held together with a fine mesh outside. It looks like this:
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You just put it in the trench like it is. Connect each section with internal couplers. No need to surround the piping with fabric or small stones or anything. You can just backfill with soil. I did have to "repair" a couple of the sections with black landscape fabric. The white mesh covering got caught on some sharp edges as I was dragging it out of the bed of my truck and started "leaking" the small pieces of styrofoam. I just used some landscape fabric and rubber bands to keep the styrofoam pieces trapped inside.
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I hope it works.
I started spreading some of the sand, but I have been waiting for some rain to help me with the compacting. I think I may be waiting for some time for the rain. I may have to make alternate arrangements. Living in the country as we do, we have a well for our water supply. I am reluctant to start using the well to water the sand. I have some bad memories about running out of water when I was a kid - not in this house but in my childhood home. I don't know how deep the well is for my current house, but the one in my childhood home was rather shallow.

Tim

No waterproofing? No stone under the drainage tile or water proofing on the foundation walls? My understanding is that these things all work together as a system, failing to put them all together may not get a system you are happy with in the future. Of course folks have built structures for a long time without them and been Ok but modern technology is useful.

The form ties can also provide a future way for water to penetrate if they are not removed and filled and then sealed over.

Still I am jealous as he.. good luck with your new shop.

Charles

Tim keep up the good work ! If you run your well dry you can always buy a case of Perrier' to flush with ---Trevor

Originally Posted by masterg

Neil,
I wasn't planning on doing any waterproffing on the sides of the concrete walls. I figured since I don't have any living space inside the concrete walls it wasn't necessary. I will use plastic sheeting before pouring the concrete floor to keep the moisture out of the shop area.

Tim

Moisture will still migrate through the walls. And humidity control in the shop is important, too. Anything over about 60% relative humidity results in condensation on tools and possible mold problems, which are a drag, and expensive to deal with. You'll probably need to run a dehumidifier anyway- but omitting the waterproofing will just increase the load on the dehumidifier. Your choice: a little now or a little more later every summer and fall month for the life of the building.

You could also paint the concrete portion of the walls and the floor with something that forms a vapor barrier. The problem there is that adhesion needs to be very good or moisture from the back side can peel the paint off.

25 years ago I built a shop buried in the side of a hill. 3 coats of waterproofing on the outside under the styrofoam, 6 mil plastic under the slab with no penetrations, sealed at the edges with caulk and a perimeter drain just outside the footing. Result: latex paint would still peel off in one corner closet if the door weren't kept open. A dehumidifier is set to come on at 50% RH year round. I shudder to think of the dehumidification load without any waterproofing on the outside walls. I'm in Vermont, so the total dehumification load is probably quite a bit lower than in Illinois.

Neil

Drain your rain spouts away from the back of the building atleast 10ft. I bulit a house 5 years ago. and yes they covered the outside concrete walls with tar for water proofing. when it would rain hard water would seep in at afew spots around the chimney and the hole where the well pipe comes thru. put my rain spouts on a 4in pvc pipe and ran them away from the house, no water anymore.

You will like your geothermal heat pump so good you will be putting one in your house in a few years. my whole house runs on $120 average a month for the year everything is eletric. Thats on a air exchanger type system, yours will perform better than mine. Well thats before I added the wood stove in the basement, and put 1500 watts of solar panels on my roof. now probly running my house on $60-70 a month or less. If you are putting much of a water service in your shop go with a manabloc system it is like a breaker box for your water you shut each thing off seprately even turn the hot water off to a sink and let the cold on or vice versa. Manabloc

The one summer I was laid off from a previse job my brother inlaw hooked me up working for a pluming and hvac business for the summer. Doing new builds, repairs you name it. Best thing I ever did because when it came time to build my house I knew what works and what doesn't. Some of the best experience of my life. And good choise not to go with the crawl space,... crawl space sucks

INSULATE everything Your shop is looking great so far.

PS i instaled drain simular to what you are putting around your shop, put 1B limestone over it anyway.soil compacks around it after a year or two and then it drains so slow. I dug mine up in a few spots and put a surface drain into it.Shop NDS 12" x 12" Catch Basin Kit at Lowes.com That is what you will buying in afew years to improve your drain system.

Originally Posted by Ox

Propane = $1.16/gal currently
and with the price of Natural, I would expect it to stay low for a while.

Propane is a by-product of oil refining so it is not directly tied to the cost of other fuel gasses. The plastics industry uses propane as a feedstock in the summer months and then switches to other feedstocks in the winter months when the price goes up. Propane is also typically a lot cheaper in areas where it is produced and areas served by the Mississippi as they can transport it cheaply from the gulf area refiners.

My house is set up with propane central heat but I installed a wood pellet stove and heat with that as it is much cheaper in this area. On a BTU to BTU basis heating with pellets costs me %45 that of propane. At the time there was not much info available in this area on geothermal or I might have gone that way.

Any plans for a sink or bathroom? I really wish my shop had a bathroom as it is at the other end of the property!

You can take propane out of Natural as well.

I have a wood pellet "furnace" for sale if anyone is interested?

Will burn pellets, coal, corn, cherry pits, etc, etc....
100K BTU


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I am Ox and I approve this h'yah post!