Thread: Construction begins on my new shop

I STRONGLY suggest you buy the JLC archive DVD as it has hundreds of articles on how to build your shop correctly.

One "Oh crap, I wish I would have known that" will more than pay for the DVD.

JLC Archive on DVD - JLC Archive

BTW, yes, you should put gravel on top of your footer drains.

Steve

Well I got some bad news from my HVAC contractor today. They came up and tried to send a section of geothermal plastic tubing down through my PVC stub pipes. The geothermal plastic tubing wouldn't go through. It appears that the PVC piping has a corner that the geothermal piping will not pass through. Evidently the corner is to sharp/abrupt. At least that is what the HVAC guy says.

I am not sure that I am allowed to cuss here, but you can be assured that I screamed a few profane words after I got off the phone with them.

I called my concrete contractor and told him that the HVAC contractor was unsuccessful in getting the geothermal piping through the PVC stub piping. I think the thing that disappointed me the most was the first thing out of my concrete contractor's mouth was "I don't know what the problem is, I put in exactly what you said you wanted."
Thanks.
I wasn't interested in placing blame on anyone, I was looking for some meaningful dialog that would hopefully lead to a solution to the problem. On one hand I have the HVAC contractor saying "The concrete guy must have used a hard 90 degree corner. This geothermal tubing is not that flexible and it won't make it through the sharp bend in a 90 degree corner." On the other hand I have a concrete contractor saying "I used sweep 90s on the corners. There shouldn't be any reason why that geothermal piping won't go through the PVC stub piping."

Is 47 years old too old to cry???

I am angry, disappointed, frustrated, sick to my stomach, etc. I knew that I would have some hurdles to overcome due to my construction inexperience and also because no project goes without a hitch. I just didn't think it would be this early and this big of a problem. Some of the solutions posed so far have ranged from digging under the footers to boring a hole through the concrete wall. Neither of which were part of the original budget.

I am sure we will come up with a reasonable solution after we take a few days to really look at the problem and talk through it. But right now it looks very bleak.
Ugh.
What is that saying - It always seems the darkest just before the sunrise?

Tim

There will be a way around it, whether it's winching as well as pushing the pipe or using one or more lengths of flexible copper tubing, pulled through the stubs and attached to a manifold at either end. Don't give up just because the contractors are passing the blame to each other!

Perhaps the geothermal piping is getting caught on the joint between the straight PVC and the sweeping 90s? Just like with physicians, you could get a second opinion from another HVAC contractor. Hope this helps. Hang in there.

Very Nice

blaine-o

Tim, get a commercial ELECTRICIAN to install the geo piping in the stubs. Trust me, we electricians spend our lives pulling/pushing very stiff wire through tubing. HVAC guys do not.

I'm guessing they just tried to push it through. The way to do it is to send a "fish tape" through first, use it to pull a small pull rope through, then use the rope to pull the piping through. An "experienced" electrician will make it look easy if the piping is at all flexible. A big key is attaching the piping to the rope. We call it "making up a pecker head". It's a skill HVAC guys don't have. Nothing against them, it's what we do that they don't have to. Likewise they do stuff we don't. "Specialization".

knn

Originally Posted by Knn

Tim, get a commercial ELECTRICIAN to install the geo piping in the stubs. Trust me, we electricians spend our lives pulling/pushing very stiff wire through tubing. HVAC guys do not ... Nothing against them, it's what we do that they don't have to. Likewise they do stuff we don't. "Specialization".knn

I like this idea. I think knn has a valid point.
toolles

Thanks everyone for the sage advice and encouragement. A couple of nights of sleep (I wish I could say it was restful sleep) and some thinking and I think I have a plan. I too agree that there is some more effort that can be expended on attempts to persuade the geothermal tubing through the pvc stub piping. Sometimes you just have to know how to talk to it...whisper sweet nothings...throw in a little wire-pulling lubricant I have left over from another project...and then maybe some profanity for good measure. Just like my Dad taught me. I need to get my hands on some of this geothermal tubing as soon as possible next week.

In the meantime, I am going to dig up around the vertical section of pvc tubing and get a better look at what my concrete contractor used as far as the "sweep 90s" to make the vertical to horizontal transition. I think most of the pvc piping is buried in the concrete footer, but I may be able to access enough of the pvc to cut a hole in the side of the piping and allow a more gradual curvature of the geothermal tubing through this hole. It never hurts to come up with a backup plan.

I will keep everyone posted. Stay tuned.

Thanks again for the advice and encouragement.

Tim

"cut a hole in the side of the piping" HUH??

Can't see that helping.

Dig it up to verify that the bends are in fact sweeps, if they are not abandon the chase and run another. The slab's not poured yet, true, you won't get in the footer and will have to penetrate one exterior wall but you're still in the game.

For that matter you're always still in the game. What if the building was an existing one? There's always a way.

There are plenty of opportunities for stress, don't let this be one.

knn

" We can even do the impossible, it just takes a little longer and costs a little more."

I got a roll of the geothermal tubing from the geothermal well digger guy. I cut a 25 foot length and attempted to pull it through the pvc stub piping. No go. The geo tubing was a lot more rigid than I expected. I thought it was 1.25 inches in diameter, but that was the internal diameter. The OD was actually 1.675 inches. There was no way that it was going to pass through the 90 degree corner, even it was a long sweep 90 degree corner.

So, I started digging in the area of the vertical section of the PVC piping and hoped that the piping had been laid close enough to the edge of the form when the concrete had been poured that I could get to it.
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I was in luck.
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The long sweep 90s were partially visible. It would only take a little work with a hammer and chisel to expose a good portion of the piping. Then I could cut out the side of the piping with my dremel. This would allow the geothermal tubing to take a more relaxed turn from the horizontal to the vertical.
So I chiseled and dremeled and pulled the 25 foot section of geothermal tubing through with moderate effort.
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I went through a few abrasive disks for my dremel, but it was successful.
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I cut and capped the two vertical sections of PVC stub tube since they were no longer needed.
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You may remember me mentioning our drought conditions here in central Illinois. We got an 1 inch of rain about 10 days ago, and this past week I mowed the yard for the first time in 10 weeks. Now they are talking about the leftovers from hurricane Isaac coming through this weekend with a potential for 6 to 8 inches of rain.
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I better get the rest of my sand piles spread out and ready for the rain to come through.
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Tim

For someone else that might want to try this, instead of plumbers sweep ells go to the ones for electrical conduit. The sweep is much larger. Also don't skimp on the diameter. 4" might be a nice size. Then use a hefty pull rope and plenty of wire lubricant on the whole thing when doing the pull. Still might not be easy though.

Wish you luch with the building and the rain.

" For someone else that might want to try this, instead of plumbers sweep ells go to the ones for electrical conduit. The sweep is much larger. Also don't skimp on the diameter. 4" might be a nice size. Then use a hefty pull rope and plenty of wire lubricant on the whole thing when doing the pull. Still might not be easy though."

+1

knn

Good Luck with the new building!

As has been pointed out, if electrical sweeps were used instead of plumbing, and possibly larger diameter pipe, you wouldn't have had to deal with this.

One of the many things covered in that JLC DVD I mentioned.

Steve

Hello Tim,

Good job on getting by your issue with the piping. Great solution, but I'm sure it was a lot of frustration and hard work. Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious, but make sure that you very cartefully hand tamp in small layers, the material that you dug out of the hole. Especially any undermining of the footings. I'm glad to see that you brought the foam right to the top of the foundation. This may be overkill, but you might consider adding foam to the top of the foundation before you fireproof the foam as this area has a direct conduit to the outside. Not a major amount of heatloss, but....

Keep the great quality pics and documentation coming. This is good fodder for the inexperienced as well as the experienced. "Never too old to learn a new trick".

Brian

Originally Posted by Sachmanram

.......... I'm glad to see that you brought the foam right to the top of the foundation. This may be overkill, but you might consider adding foam to the top of the foundation before you fireproof the foam as this area has a direct conduit to the outside. Not a major amount of heatloss, but....

Just make sure you do NOT do that with the foam you used for the rest of the insulation. That foam is rated for 15 PSI and the DOW literature probably rates it around 5 PSI for continuous load, which isn't much. Personally I wouldn't run the risk.

BTW - For those about to point out that foam is regularly used under slabs (including mine), concrete is about 144 lbs / cubic foot. So a 12" thick slab is ONE PSI and a 6" thick slab is 1/2 PSI, a far lighter loading than the loading on a sill plate.

Steve

What happens when you place something on that concrete?



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I am Ox and I approve this h'yah post!

Originally Posted by Ox

What happens when you place something on that concrete?

The load gets higher. For example, a Bridgeport puts about another 1 PSI on the floor.

Foam boards that are specifically formulated and designed for under slab use can be had with densities that are rated at up to 100 PSI.

Steve

Down here we find the foam is a superhighway for insects, ants and termites mostly. So it is recommended that you remove the foam from the foundation cap to the ground level. Most folks just apply cement or bricks to cover the concrete so it isnt exposed. Guess that isnt a big problem with your winters...?

Charles